The Princess over the Water: A Yorkist AU

[The Bashful Bookworm]

Let us hypothesize that Anne Neville survived her bout of tuberculosis in 1485, narrowly averting the fatal complications of OTL. Her recovery is certainly arduous, and her relationship with Richard is still under some relative strain, but by the time news breaks of Henry Tudor's plans to invade England, Anne is pregnant once more. Following the Battle of Bosworth, a widowed Anne flees to Burgundy, taking refuge under Margaret of York. A scant month after Henry's marriage to Elizabeth of York, Anne gives birth to a baby girl, who is christened Constance. Nine months later, EoY succumbs to complications following the delivery of Prince Arthur. How might little Connie's existence affect the Tudor dynasty, if at all? Would EoY's premature death have greater repercussions to her husband's weak grasp on the crown?

Please feel free to add comments or critiques as you see fit.

 

[Tyler96]

Well, a baby girl isn't exactly going to spearhead Yorkist restoration efforts, so it's possible John de la Pole, Lambert Simnel et al. still get up to their OTL shenanigans. It's not like they were especially coordinated IOTL, and rebelling to put a newborn girl on the throne isn't very appetising (especially considering this is an England that has not had a Queen Regnant at this point, bar the highly contested reign of Empress Matilda).

Anne's a bit of a cipher, so there's some important questions- how well does she get on with Margaret of York, and to what extent is Margaret willing to support her (especially in the face of diplomatic pressure)? And, is Anne absolutely dedicated to establishing her daughter as the rightful Queen of England, or is she content to keep a lower profile?

Would there be any interest in Constance as a wife amongst Burgundian/Imperial noblemen? Anne and Margaret could angle for this, but if there's not much in the way of a dowry I'm not sure anyone too significant would bite, additionally I imagine Max or Philip could veto any proposed marriage if it jeopardises their relations with England.

When does Anne die? Margaret died in 1503 OTL, if Anne's also dead by that point then Constance will be left adrift as an unmarried 18 year old with no immediate family and utterly reliant on the uncertain charity of self-interested local rulers (unless aunt Margaret leaves her a tidy nest egg? Not sure how likely this is). And Constance could end up living a miserable life trundling around the continent between rulers temporarily willing to support her.

On the off chance someone deposes the Tudors and replaces them with, say, Warwick or some Perkin-esque impostor, she might be imported over as a legitimacy-boosting bride. The likelihood of this is rather slim.

The big effect on the Tudor dynasty in this scenario might not be Constance's existence, but Elizabeth of York's early death.

Can Henry VII just move on to the next sister in line (Cecily?), and would that be difficult in terms of dispensations and what not (marrying a former sibling in-law was obviously a whole big thing in Henry VIII's 'Great Matter')? Any uncertainty in the interim would be damaging to the nascent Tudor dynasty, but I'm not sure it'd be enough to topple them.

 

[The Bashful Bookworm]

Well, a baby girl isn't exactly going to spearhead Yorkist restoration efforts, so it's possible John de la Pole, Lambert Simnel et al. still get up to their OTL shenanigans. It's not like they were especially coordinated IOTL, and rebelling to put a newborn girl on the throne isn't very appetising (especially considering this is an England that has not had a Queen Regnant at this point, bar the highly contested reign of Empress Matilda).

Anne's a bit of a cipher, so there's some important questions- how well does she get on with Margaret of York, and to what extent is Margaret willing to support her (especially in the face of diplomatic pressure)? And, is Anne absolutely dedicated to establishing her daughter as the rightful Queen of England, or is she content to keep a lower profile?

Would there be any interest in Constance as a wife amongst Burgundian/Imperial noblemen? Anne and Margaret could angle for this, but if there's not much in the way of a dowry I'm not sure anyone too significant would bite, additionally I imagine Max or Philip could veto any proposed marriage if it jeopardises their relations with England.

When does Anne die? Margaret died in 1503 OTL, if Anne's also dead by that point then Constance will be left adrift as an unmarried 18 year old with no immediate family and utterly reliant on the uncertain charity of self-interested local rulers (unless aunt Margaret leaves her a tidy nest egg? Not sure how likely this is). And Constance could end up living a miserable life trundling around the continent between rulers temporarily willing to support her.

On the off chance someone deposes the Tudors and replaces them with, say, Warwick or some Perkin-esque impostor, she might be imported over as a legitimacy-boosting bride. The likelihood of this is rather slim.

The big effect on the Tudor dynasty in this scenario might not be Constance's existence, but Elizabeth of York's early death.

Can Henry VII just move on to the next sister in line (Cecily?), and would that be difficult in terms of dispensations and what not (marrying a former sibling in-law was obviously a whole big thing in Henry VIII's 'Great Matter')? Any uncertainty in the interim would be damaging to the nascent Tudor dynasty, but I'm not sure it'd be enough to topple them.

All valid points. Thank you for the response. I'm not sure how persuasive my opinions would be, but you are correct, Matilda's contested reign as Lady of the English certainly didn't make the idea of Mary I succeeding any better in H8's mind; after all, the lack of a male heir was the catalyst of the Great Matter. Anne is certainly one of England's faceless queens, but if she was anything like her father, she may possess some of Warwick's political acumen and possibly propose a match (though unlikely) to Prince Arthur in an attempt to reunite the Lancastrian/Yorkist claims. Margaret herself was no pushover, as her governing of Burgundy after Charles' death proves. ITTL, Constance's birth may have had an unintentional effect on the Stafford/Lovell rebellion, and the Battle of Stoke could also result from John de la Pole rebelling in his cousin's name, though OTL that was a disaster as well, seeing how Lovell went MIA/KIA depending on the source.

Cecily of York would be out of the picture given her marriage to Ralph Scrope. Henry may hesitantly entertain the idea of betrothing Arthur to Constance, though admittedly, Catherine of Aragon is by far a more appropriate bride. Provided butterflies don't kill Catherine ahead of schedule. Would Scotland or support from the north of England make any difference a la the Pilgrimage of Grace? Otherwise, Constance might very well end up married to Edward of Warwick or even Warbeck. And once they're both executed, the only logical choice would be a nunnery. Or Anne could very well bite the bullet and swear fealty to Henry VII on the condition of Constance being allowed to inherit Richard's dukedom and the Neville fortunes/estates as joint heiress to Margaret Pole if Warwick the Younger dies on schedule.

 

[Tyler96]

Would John de la Pole really fight in his cousin's name, though? An infant girl (and the prospect of a 16+ year regency) isn't really something to rally support in England behind (not that they got much support in England IOTL anyway). Of course, for reasons that I've always found somewhat puzzling, de la Pole chose to advance an impostor's claim to the throne IOTL (rather than his own), so maybe he would support Constance's claim.

Re: Arthur and Constance. Having two domestic marriages for the first two generations of the Tudor dynasty isn't ideal for them, especially when there are more prestigious foreign matches available (like Catherine). Also, from the Tudor POV, it's not like marrying Constance will neutralise all opposition- because there's still Warwick, Warbeck, and sundry de la Poles to cause trouble- so it's not really worth wasting your heir on her.

Any other rapprochement with the Tudors which sees Constance come to England and inherit some of her father's estates probably wouldn't lead to a great life for her- the Tudors would watch her like a hawk, and probably try and marry her off to one of their supporters (like Richard Pole's marriage to Margaret of Clarence and Cecily's marriage to Welles IOTL) or ensure she doesn't marry at all. Though this might still be better than trying to eke out an existence on the continent. Of course, if the Tudors have already distributed Richard's/Warwick's lands then restoring them to Constance would be messy and perhaps seen as not worth the effort.

Cecily's marriage to Scrope was quickly annulled, but I suppose Henry would refrain from marrying her because she's "soiled goods". Who'd be his second wife then?

As for the Pilgrimage of Grace- that's 50 years in the future, and Henry VIII doesn't even exist ITTL. Who's to say England even goes Protestant here?

 

[Mikestone8]

Of course, for reasons that I've always found somewhat puzzling, de la Pole chose to advance an impostor's claim to the throne IOTL (rather than his own)

It's not all that mysterious.

With Richard III and his son both dead, Warwick is the sole heir of his grandfather, the "KIngmaker", so might hope to attract support from Grandad's tenants or their sons.

Note that according to reports Perkin Warbeck was also initially alleged to be Warwick, before he and his backers decided that he was Richard of York instead. That obscure third pretender (I forget his name) also claimed to be Warwick.

 

[The Bashful Bookworm]

Would John de la Pole really fight in his cousin's name, though? An infant girl (and the prospect of a 16+ year regency) isn't really something to rally support in England behind (not that they got much support in England IOTL anyway). Of course, for reasons that I've always found somewhat puzzling, de la Pole chose to advance an impostor's claim to the throne IOTL (rather than his own), so maybe he would support Constance's claim.

Re: Arthur and Constance. Having two domestic marriages for the first two generations of the Tudor dynasty isn't ideal for them, especially when there are more prestigious foreign matches available (like Catherine). Also, from the Tudor POV, it's not like marrying Constance will neutralise all opposition- because there's still Warwick, Warbeck, and sundry de la Poles to cause trouble- so it's not really worth wasting your heir on her.

Any other rapprochement with the Tudors which sees Constance come to England and inherit some of her father's estates probably wouldn't lead to a great life for her- the Tudors would watch her like a hawk, and probably try and marry her off to one of their supporters (like Richard Pole's marriage to Margaret of Clarence and Cecily's marriage to Welles IOTL) or ensure she doesn't marry at all. Though this might still be better than trying to eke out an existence on the continent. Of course, if the Tudors have already distributed Richard's/Warwick's lands then restoring them to Constance would be messy and perhaps seen as not worth the effort.

Cecily's marriage to Scrope was quickly annulled, but I suppose Henry would refrain from marrying her because she's "soiled goods". Who'd be his second wife then?

As for the Pilgrimage of Grace- that's 50 years in the future, and Henry VIII doesn't even exist ITTL. Who's to say England even goes Protestant here?

Hm.. I’m sorry, let me clarify. I was more focused on the prospect of northern resistance when I mentioned the PoG, not the shift in religion from Catholicism to Protestantism. Given Henry VII’s pro-French tendencies, he may look for a French bride (perhaps Margaret of Lorraine? Correct me if I’m wrong, France isn’t my strong suit) or perhaps even Joanna of Portugal if she doesn’t remain in a convent. Granted, Joanna would be 34 in 1486, so she would be somewhat older than Henry but she might still be able to produce a few potential spares should something happen to Arthur. Henry might also attempt to marry EoY’s remaining siblings, but between the whole dispensation process, it’d be unlikely since they’d most likely be minors and it’d take years for them to be considered ready for consummation and childbirth. Henry VII may not have that much time, so his best bet would be a mature bride. Who’s to say Anne might not offer herself, though that might also be highly unlikely. Might Constance fare somewhat better in Burgundy if Margaret arranged for her to marry Philip, or would she, Anne and Max consider that to be too much of a liability?

 

[Tyler96]

It's not all that mysterious.

With Richard III and his son both dead, Warwick is the sole heir of his grandfather, the "KIngmaker", so might hope to attract support from Grandad's tenants or their sons.

Note that according to reports Perkin Warbeck was also initially alleged to be Warwick, before he and his backers decided that he was Richard of York instead. That obscure third pretender (I forget his name) also claimed to be Warwick.

It's more the choosing to support an impostor claiming to be Warwick despite the fact that Henry VII has the actual Warwick in his possession. Unless Lincoln thought Simnel was legit (presumably as the result of some unlikely switcheroo or escape from the Tower)?

And I think the third pretender you're thinking of Ralph Wulford?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

@Shy Girl 1918: Welcome to the board.

Can Henry VII just move on to the next sister in line (Cecily?), and would that be difficult in terms of dispensations and what not (marrying a former sibling in-law was obviously a whole big thing in Henry VIII's 'Great Matter')? Any uncertainty in the interim would be damaging to the nascent Tudor dynasty, but I'm not sure it'd be enough to topple them.

Depends on whether Arthur is born/survives or not. OTL Henry VII's remarriage was an attempt to prove that the claim came from him and NOT Liz of York AIUI. If Arthur's alive, I could see Harry trying to get Constance married to his heir, while the queen is a foreign princess. Or even if Art dies, and Harry remarries quickly enough to secure the dynasty (he's king by right of conquest not dynastic right), Connie might be slated to marry Tudor's son.

Sure, the diabolical duchess (Margaret of York) might not be overly eager (not sure if Harry would be either), but no one BUT England would want her (if she comes with small/no dowry) and anyone who DOES want to marry her, probably can't help her much. Maybe James IV weds her instead of Margaret Tudor, but otherwise I'm skeptical of another arrangement being found.

Anne could very well bite the bullet and swear fealty to Henry VII on the condition of Constance being allowed to inherit Richard's dukedom and the Neville fortunes/estates as joint heiress to Margaret Pole if Warwick the Younger dies on schedule.

Yeah, no way Harry's buying Anne's surrender (she went from Yorkist to Lancastrian and back again, now you want her to change her coat. Again? Anything like her dad and she may play ball, but Harry isn't going to). She may get Anne's portion of the Neville lands up north (if Anne's convincing enough an actress), but he's not creating her duchess of anything. Either York or Gloucester. For this reason:

Any other rapprochement with the Tudors which sees Constance come to England and inherit some of her father's estates probably wouldn't lead to a great life for her- the Tudors would watch her like a hawk, and probably try and marry her off to one of their supporters (like Richard Pole's marriage to Margaret of Clarence and Cecily's marriage to Welles IOTL) or ensure she doesn't marry at all. Though this might still be better than trying to eke out an existence on the continent. Of course, if the Tudors have already distributed Richard's/Warwick's lands then restoring them to Constance would be messy and perhaps seen as not worth the effort.

Who’s to say Anne might not offer herself, though that might also be highly unlikely. Might Constance fare somewhat better in Burgundy if Margaret arranged for her to marry Philip, or would she, Anne and Max consider that to be too much of a liability?

Anne Neville, the widowed queen with a somewhat spotty obstetric history (two prior marriages with only one surviving child to show for it? Harry might do better with the Portuguese saint-infanta).

 

[Tyler96]

Might Constance fare somewhat better in Burgundy if Margaret arranged for her to marry Philip, or would she, Anne and Max consider that to be too much of a liability?

What does Philip get out of marrying a penniless English exile other than a vague claim to the throne of England and the undying enmity of the Tudors? Especially when there's much more advantageous potential brides floating about.

 

[The Bashful Bookworm]

@Shy Girl 1918: Welcome to the board.



Depends on whether Arthur is born/survives or not. OTL Henry VII's remarriage was an attempt to prove that the claim came from him and NOT Liz of York AIUI. If Arthur's alive, I could see Harry trying to get Constance married to his heir, while the queen is a foreign princess. Or even if Art dies, and Harry remarries quickly enough to secure the dynasty (he's king by right of conquest not dynastic right), Connie might be slated to marry Tudor's son.

Sure, the diabolical duchess (Margaret of York) might not be overly eager (not sure if Harry would be either), but no one BUT England would want her (if she comes with small/no dowry) and anyone who DOES want to marry her, probably can't help her much. Maybe James IV weds her instead of Margaret Tudor, but otherwise I'm skeptical of another arrangement being found.



Yeah, no way Harry's buying Anne's surrender (she went from Yorkist to Lancastrian and back again, now you want her to change her coat. Again? Anything like her dad and she may play ball, but Harry isn't going to). She may get Anne's portion of the Neville lands up north (if Anne's convincing enough an actress), but he's not creating her duchess of anything. Either York or Gloucester. For this reason:





Anne Neville, the widowed queen with a somewhat spotty obstetric history (two prior marriages with only one surviving child to show for it? Harry might do better with the Portuguese saint-infanta).

I'm strictly thinking aloud here and in no means do I intend to go that route; Anne was a political pawn in her father's schemes when she married Edward of Lancaster and she undoubtedly had no choice in the matter. In hindsight, I realize my comments seem rather naive/foolish, but I've never participated in a message board and I'm trying to weigh my options via feedback and discussion. Between school and work, I haven't had much time to work on an outline as I would like, and I certainly don't claim to be an expert in medieval politics aside from the basics; it's historical figures that interest me. Given the generally-Salic inheritance system of most monarchies at the time, I highly doubt Connie will become queen regnant. In terms of marriage, her best chance may very well be Arthur or Seumas IV. Anne's hypothetical audience with Harry could be a tentative attempt to play whatever cards she has to ensure her daughter's future, even if Connie's situation is admittedly bleak. Joanna would make a better prospect on Harry's end.

 

[JonasResende]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/the-legacy-of-richard-iii-a-tliad.335570/

Like this, perhaps?

 

[BlueFlowwer]

If Maximilian and Mary's second so Francis survives I can see Constance being his bride.

 

[The Bashful Bookworm]

If Maximilian and Mary's second so Francis survives I can see Constance being his bride.

Good point, Blue. I was wondering when someone would bring up Francis. True, Francis would be about 5 years older than Constance, but it'd be a somewhat closer age gap than Philip, who'd be 7 going on 8 by 1486 (By contrast, Arthur is only seven months younger than Connie).

 

[The Bashful Bookworm]

https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/the-legacy-of-richard-iii-a-tliad.335570/

Like this, perhaps?

That's quite fascinating, actually. Yes, possibly to an extent, but at the moment I'm still working out the snags.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Five years age gap between Francis and Constance is not a issue, he's the second son, so less stress for him to marry. That gives Constance a imperial husband, a conncection to Burgundy and most likely a far happier life than in tudor england.

 

[The Bashful Bookworm]

Five years age gap between Francis and Constance is not a issue, he's the second son, so less stress for him to marry. That gives Constance a imperial husband, a conncection to Burgundy and most likely a far happier life than in tudor england.

Very much so. What titles or influence may Francis bring to the marriage, if Philip is Duke of Burgundy?

 

[mrmandias]

The big effect on the Tudor dynasty in this scenario might not be Constance's existence, but Elizabeth of York's early death.

Can Henry VII just move on to the next sister in line (Cecily?), and would that be difficult in terms of dispensations and what not (marrying a former sibling in-law was obviously a whole big thing in Henry VIII's 'Great Matter')? Any uncertainty in the interim would be damaging to the nascent Tudor dynasty, but I'm not sure it'd be enough to topple them.

Gonna be hard for an alt-Henry VIII (born to the next sister) to complain about marrying siblings-in-law if it calls into question his own legitimacy.

 

[BlueFlowwer]

The brother of the emperor, assuming that Philip does live to become emperor, is important. The hapsburgs have many realms.

 

[The Bashful Bookworm]

The brother of the emperor, assuming that Philip does live to become emperor, is important. The hapsburgs have many realms.

Brain fart. "Let others wage war: thou, happy Austria, marry."

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Constance can perhaps be the bride of Christian II of Denmark? He's not a threat to the Tudors, but he's still a king.