The Portuguese Invasion of Brazil...

MacCaulay

Banned
They were actually nurses who qualified as paratroopers so they could be airdroped if needed.
I don't know how that will affect your hot factor meter....

I just got done reading a book about the French in Indochina that talked about that. Some of the nurses had half a dozen jumps by the end.

Mac,
Would this convince you to get jump qualified?

You couldn't get me to jump if you put a million dollars in unmarked bills in the LZ.

In 1640, when Portugal became once again independent from Spain, Brasil was partly occupied by the Dutch, and partly in the process of being rebuilt by goodwilling (with a pro spanish agenda) jesuits that were trying to convert the natives rather then have them enslaved. The local portuguese forces had to fight a conventional war with the dutch, and a irregular war to eliminate the new jesuit inspired comunities and consolidate the border with neighbouring spanish colonies. So there was a portuguese led counterinsurgency of sorts in Barsil, but it happened in the XVII century. The leading exponent of the counterinsurgency side was a man called Raposo Tavares, at least in the rather one sided portuguese history books written in the 30s...

...so...what would happen if we used the Dutch instead of the Portuguese?
 
Under no circumstances can I see the USA allowing this to happen.

'Turn a blind eye'? No way.

Let me put it this way. Say in 1965 Franco in Spain needs to get back in the West's good graces, and offers to 'take care of Cuba for us'. After all, Cuba was a former Spanish colony, much smaller than Spain (population-wise, at least), and the US hated Fidel.

Even then, I can't see it - the US would simply not allow a Colonial power back into the Western Hemisphere. Forget Cuba, suddenly all the Costa Ricas, Hondurus-es, and Venezuelas of Latin America would feel alone. Then they start looking to other powers than the USA for protection...

No way...

Mike Turcotte
 
The leading exponent of the counterinsurgency side was a man called Raposo Tavares, at least in the rather one sided portuguese history books written in the 30s...

What??? Tavares' participation in the war against the Dutch was minimal. The declared leader of the rebellion was Fernandes Vieira, and even others like Vidal de Negreiros, Felipe Camarão, Henrique Dias, Antônio Dias Cardoso, were much more important than him. Raposo Tavares only commanded a small force that was part of the troops sent by São Paulo to fight in Pernambuco.
 
...so...what would happen if we used the Dutch instead of the Portuguese?

Well, you need a POD back in the 17th century for that, and even then the Dutch wouldn't have the strenght to conquer the whole of the territory that OTL formed Brazil. So we wouldn't have a "Brazil" to start with this plan. Also, the butterflies would be so massive that is hard to imagine how the conditions of "Brazil" and "Netherlands" would in in the 20th century.
 
Tavares

What??? Tavares' participation in the war against the Dutch was minimal. The declared leader of the rebellion was Fernandes Vieira, and even others like Vidal de Negreiros, Felipe Camarão, Henrique Dias, Antônio Dias Cardoso, were much more important than him. Raposo Tavares only commanded a small force that was part of the troops sent by São Paulo to fight in Pernambuco.

Sure, but I was talking about the actions in what I termed the "counterinsurgency side as written in Portuguese history books of the 30s" I understand that his role in Portuguese Brasilian history is downplayed in this political correct times, and slavery and the fate of the native population are better left unspoken...
 
does no one realize that the Monroe doctrine only applied to countries trying to acquire new territories in Latin america. The Portuguese fighting in Brasil might see the US supporting the Brasillians but not a military intervention.

I wonder how the Brits would react to the US working against its oldest ally;
but by then who knows right?
 
Sure, but I was talking about the actions in what I termed the "counterinsurgency side as written in Portuguese history books of the 30s" I understand that his role in Portuguese Brasilian history is downplayed in this political correct times, and slavery and the fate of the native population are better left unspoken...

Do you have any link showing that 30's books in Brazil used to make Raposo Tavares a great leader of the Pernambucan rebellion? Because even under the 30's Getulista regime it doesn't make sense. At least even during the military regime of 1964 Henrique Dias, Vidal de Negreiros, Fernandes Vieira and Felipe Camarão were always shown in books as the great leaders, as they represented the unity of the Brazilian people (whites, blacks and natives) against the foreign invader (with the Battle of Guararapes being declare the "birth of Brazilian nationality"). It wouldn't make sense for Getúlio Vargas, who wanted to reduce the political importance of São Paulo, to promote a Paulista bandeirante as the leader of a rebellion that happened in Pernambuco.
 
Brazil?

Do you have any link showing that 30's books in Brazil used to make Raposo Tavares a great leader of the Pernambucan rebellion? Because even under the 30's Getulista regime it doesn't make sense. At least even during the military regime of 1964 Henrique Dias, Vidal de Negreiros, Fernandes Vieira and Felipe Camarão were always shown in books as the great leaders, as they represented the unity of the Brazilian people (whites, blacks and natives) against the foreign invader (with the Battle of Guararapes being declare the "birth of Brazilian nationality"). It wouldn't make sense for Getúlio Vargas, who wanted to reduce the political importance of São Paulo, to promote a Paulista bandeirante as the leader of a rebellion that happened in Pernambuco.

Who said anything about books in Brasil? I was talking about books in Portugal. Portugal was a colonial power back then, and the idea of guys who went into the jungle and kept the natives in line was very "in" in Salazar's time for obvious reasons. See the fuss about Mouzinho de Albuquerque.
I get it that brasilians want to make it all about the Dutch, but there was Spanish inspired trouble inland, and Tavares was one one of the guys who pushed the Borders out and the natives down.
 
Who said anything about books in Brasil? I was talking about books in Portugal. Portugal was a colonial power back then, and the idea of guys who went into the jungle and kept the natives in line was very "in" in Salazar's time for obvious reasons. See the fuss about Mouzinho de Albuquerque.

Sorry, I misread that. But still, could you provide any source for this (Tavares being shown as the leading exponent of the Pernambucan rebellion)? It seems just odd, even for Portuguese. After all, the whole "blacks, indians and whites united against the invaders" would fit very well with Salazar's "lusotropicalism" inspired by Gilberto Freyre.
 
Just the counter insurgency part

In the book "grandes prtugueses" and in "Portugal militar" he his portrait as a major hero of the action to push back Spanish attempts, with the Jesuits manipulating the natives, to prevent the expansion of Brasil inland. I never said he led the Portuguese actions against the Dutch, just at he was portrayed as a leading exponent of a form of proto counterinsurgency.
 
What if the Portuguese never have to flee to Brazil. That could keep Brazil under Portuguese control for a pretty long time.
 
No...no Portuguese Diaspora? Would that do it? Maybe...they run, but they go to Africa instead of South America?

I'm honestly not in my comfort zone here. If you asked me to write a story about a hypothetical conflict like this I could do it, but only because counterinsurgency is sort of my niche.

Mac, why not reverse it and make it a Brazilian invasion of Portugal? A Brazilian counterinsurgency campaign in Europe in the 1960s.
 
OTL again

The Brasilian invasion of Portugal sort of happened in the 1830. After Barsil was independent the portuguese government went absolutist, and the Brasilian Emperor Dão Pedro, who was also an heir to the portuguese throne, came back to portugal, with a bunch of brasilian suporters (and mostly with like minded portuguese to be fair) and landed on Oporto in support of the liberal cause. It started as a civil war, the liberals won, and Dão Pedro went back to Brasil. After he died his body was buried in Brasil but his heart was sent to Oporto were it still rests.
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
Mac, why not reverse it and make it a Brazilian invasion of Portugal? A Brazilian counterinsurgency campaign in Europe in the 1960s.

The Carnation Revolution happens earlier and with a bit less initial succes promtping a invasion of the still Authocratic Brazil? I love it!
 

MacCaulay

Banned
The Carnation Revolution happens earlier and with a bit less initial succes promtping a invasion of the still Authocratic Brazil? I love it!

Alright I'm going to say it: am I the only writer on the board who, when presented with an opportunity for straight up conventional warfare says: "NO! THERE'S GOT TO BE A WAY TO MAKE IT MORE DEPRESSING AND LESS CLEAR CUT!"? :D
 

HJ Tulp

Donor
Alright I'm going to say it: am I the only writer on the board who, when presented with an opportunity for straight up conventional warfare says: "NO! THERE'S GOT TO BE A WAY TO MAKE IT MORE DEPRESSING AND LESS CLEAR CUT!"? :D

SPOILED! That´s what you are! :D
 
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