This thread is inspired by Stalin's quote facetiously asking how many divs the Pope had to enforce his will. So, what POD/s could exist by the 1920s or 30s so's that the Pope actually does have a fullfledged Papal army at his disposal, as opposed to the few hundred or so Swiss Guards who currently guard the Vatican ? WI the Jesuits had been accorded such a militant role to enforce the Catholic Church's will ?
The Pope's private army
- Thread starter Melvin Loh
- Start date
I think the existense of the Papal army has to be in conjunction with a fully-fledged Papal state, unless an order of the church has sufficient militant bias to serve as such an army. The problem with this is, providing the Pope has only the Vatican as his direct domain, how many countries would want the members of the militant Catholic order residing there? With Vatican not being able to physically host an army of sufficient size to make the difference, the best the Pope could realistically hope for is some sort of Catholic special forces/secret service.
Now, if during the Italian unification the Pope was able to claim at least a portion of his former dominions, maybe parts of Tuscany etc - even if he holds them nominally in vassalage to the Kingdom of Italy - then a moderately sized Papal army is not out of question, probably mostly mercenary, as it had been historically, but with a significant size Papal state, it could even be partially recruited natively. Effectively, the POD has to leave the Pope as a secular ruler as well as a spiritual head of religion.
I am not too familiar with the actual events of Italian unification, so the POD might even have to be earlier, possibly around Napoleonic era. If the Pope sided with the French from the beginning (highly unlikely given the nature of the revolution, but if the revolution itself were altered in its ideological context, not impossible), and claimed neutrality when the French became the losing side, he could have stayed a moderate-sized power in Italy with some shadowy politicking, and with enough political acumen, the Popes could have preserved an actual Papal state (not Vatican) to this day.
Now, if during the Italian unification the Pope was able to claim at least a portion of his former dominions, maybe parts of Tuscany etc - even if he holds them nominally in vassalage to the Kingdom of Italy - then a moderately sized Papal army is not out of question, probably mostly mercenary, as it had been historically, but with a significant size Papal state, it could even be partially recruited natively. Effectively, the POD has to leave the Pope as a secular ruler as well as a spiritual head of religion.
I am not too familiar with the actual events of Italian unification, so the POD might even have to be earlier, possibly around Napoleonic era. If the Pope sided with the French from the beginning (highly unlikely given the nature of the revolution, but if the revolution itself were altered in its ideological context, not impossible), and claimed neutrality when the French became the losing side, he could have stayed a moderate-sized power in Italy with some shadowy politicking, and with enough political acumen, the Popes could have preserved an actual Papal state (not Vatican) to this day.
Melvin Loh said:
You'll have to deal with italian nationalistic movements that would not accept anything but a unified Italy with capital in Rome.
Maybe with a divided Italy...
Maybe with a divided Italy...
Condottiero said:
Maybe the Pope gets Vatican, plus some other territories, with the permission to travel between them through the territory of Italy... not sure how plausible this would be since the Pope that has any sort of power would be unlikely to give up Rome, and if Italy could force the Pope to give up Rome, they could force him to give up pretty much everything else.
Tom_B said:
LOL, thank you
How about Garibaldi tries for Rome instead of Sicily and dies a captive in jail there.
If we assume an analogue to 1866 comes along, the Austrians put the guy who was OTL in charge of the Italian front in charge of the Northern one, and he whips Prussia's arse.
Of course, by the time you've done this and ensured the survival of the Papal States, you've also prevented the unification of Germany !
Grey Wolf
Technically the Pope still has an army. They are all Swiss Guards, and they wear funny uniforms.
I agree with this, but the secret service comment got me thinking. What if, instead of a Papal Army, there was a sort of Vatican Mossad? A bureau within the Vatican recruiting and training Catholic agents to take out the excommunicated, Communist politicians, and others deemed a threat to Holy Mother Church.midgardmetal said:
Kadyet
Banned
Italy is unified, but under the pope (perhaps a bit of political manuevering by Pius IX before he swings towards conservativism). The "Italian Army" is the Order of Constantine the Great (making this group up), which has the three main vows (poverty, chastity, and obediance). They're allowed to marry, with wives and children (prior to their majority) performing rear-echelon support services. While officers join permanently, "enlisted" men may join for a period of at least four years. 20 years of good service by the enlisted men grants a hereditary noble title, that of Cavaliere Ereditario, thus qualifying their children to be officers.
While it functions as the Italian Army, it is open to all baptized male Catholics, and branches exist in several other nations. These branches will and do serve their host nations in just wars. Notably, during the First World War, Pope Benedict XV forbid the orders of all but Austria-Hungary to engage in combat (as only Austria-Hungary had a just war, German forfeiting that with their declaration of war on France and invasion of Belgium). The First World War ended when the Order invaded France (via Italy along with insurrection by the French branch) in response to the French refusal to accept the very generous peace terms by Kaiser Karl I of Austria-Hungary. As a result, France suffered painful reparations in its defeat by Germany and ceded historically Italian provinces (Savoy, Nice) to Italy.
Most of the soldiers in the Order function as highly trained infantry (all but the Austro-Hungarian branch being solely infantry), but the Italian and Austro-Hungarian branches do have several armored divisions.
While it functions as the Italian Army, it is open to all baptized male Catholics, and branches exist in several other nations. These branches will and do serve their host nations in just wars. Notably, during the First World War, Pope Benedict XV forbid the orders of all but Austria-Hungary to engage in combat (as only Austria-Hungary had a just war, German forfeiting that with their declaration of war on France and invasion of Belgium). The First World War ended when the Order invaded France (via Italy along with insurrection by the French branch) in response to the French refusal to accept the very generous peace terms by Kaiser Karl I of Austria-Hungary. As a result, France suffered painful reparations in its defeat by Germany and ceded historically Italian provinces (Savoy, Nice) to Italy.
Most of the soldiers in the Order function as highly trained infantry (all but the Austro-Hungarian branch being solely infantry), but the Italian and Austro-Hungarian branches do have several armored divisions.
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How about the order of St John in Malta, they were around until Napoleon took over the island. They are still active as an order only in a completely different way (more like a charity from what i understand).
What if one pope or other managed to have greater control over them and become a sort of commander in chief with the knights slowly changing into a modern multicultural army (all catholics of course) with strict allegiance to the pope. Situated in a country of it´s own (Malta) with a small contingent in the Vatican and the financial backing of the Vatican it could become a small but effective force that could intervene whenever the vatican saw fit.
If the POD is taken a lot further back something similar could happen with all the other orders creating a large papal army during the middle ages.
What if one pope or other managed to have greater control over them and become a sort of commander in chief with the knights slowly changing into a modern multicultural army (all catholics of course) with strict allegiance to the pope. Situated in a country of it´s own (Malta) with a small contingent in the Vatican and the financial backing of the Vatican it could become a small but effective force that could intervene whenever the vatican saw fit.
If the POD is taken a lot further back something similar could happen with all the other orders creating a large papal army during the middle ages.
What about Opus Dei? Isn't that like some fanatical Catholic spy agency or something? Could we have something like this in WW2?
So, when Stalin asks how many divisions the Pope has, one of these nutters gets close enough to slide a "Holy Blessed Blade of vengeance" between a couple of his ribs, while hissing, "We need no divisions, heretic, we are the will of God!!!" This assassin would be quickly sent to his heavenly reward...but wouldn't this just be peachy?
So, when Stalin asks how many divisions the Pope has, one of these nutters gets close enough to slide a "Holy Blessed Blade of vengeance" between a couple of his ribs, while hissing, "We need no divisions, heretic, we are the will of God!!!" This assassin would be quickly sent to his heavenly reward...but wouldn't this just be peachy?