The Philippines Remains Part Of The USA..

The thing about the Philippines population ITTL is that as part of the United States there would be unlimited migration to the mainland U.S. and Hawaii. So I think while the Philippines is still the largest state. What is also true is that Filipinos are the largest ethnic group in the U.S.


The population of the Philippines was about 16 million come WWII. by comparison, at the same time, New York, at the time the largest state, had about 13.5 million residents. the new york delegation to the house of representatives elected in 1940 (after the census whose figure I cited) had 43 representatives (out of 435), which works out to about one representative per 313,500 constituents. Using this same ratio, the Philippines would have 51 representatives, easily making it the largest state, which would control over ten percent of the house of representatives and 9% of the electoral vote. However, since 1911, the size of the house has been fixed at 435. So what share of the house does the philippines represent? well, it contains about 10.7% of the national population, which works out to 47 seats in the house (note that, in order to accomidate this, many states will lose several seats), and again holds 9% of the electoral vote.

I'm not going to discuss the long-term effects of adding the Philippines to the united states here, either in terms of domestic politics or the philippine standard of living. But note what this represents. the philippines is, in this scenario, instantly the most powerful state in the nation, bar none. many other states will lose out, either directly (weaker house delegations) or indirectly (reduced influence) in this deal. And a few other points. the philippines population has increased since world war two by a factor of 5.75, while the population of America as a whole has multiplied about 2.3 times in the same period. That sort of growth may slow, but it will at least match and probably outstrip the growth of the continental United states for a certain period (although this may be balanced out by emigration). Another factor is that this adds a large population of people who are ethnically, religiously, and linguistically distinct from the rest of America. Finally, all of this will have to be dealt with in advance, since the US had been promising independence for decades and the philippinos werent exactly eager for america to stay (having fought a war to that effect).

In short, all of these issues have to be dealt with at some point, and probably decades before WWII (whether this would impact Japanese strategic planning is an interesting question). personally, I dont know if it would be feasible to introduce the Philippines as less than two of three states (say, Leyte, Mindanao, and a collection of central islands (Samar, leyte, Negros, Panay, palawan)).
 

Markus

Banned
Originally Posted by Markus
A piss-poor bunch of catholics who are not even white

I sincerely do hope that you did not mean that personally and insultingly.


Not at all, I bluntly expressed the way Americans felt about non-whites at the time.

By the way, do you know any good websites about the Filipino military in WW2? I need some info for the upcomming parts of my TL.
 
Not at all, I bluntly expressed the way Americans felt about non-whites at the time.

American-Filipino relations are very interesting in this period, actually. The First American bill that gave the Philippines independence was rejected by the Filippino legislature because it pushed them out of the American tariff wall and only allowed for something like fifty immigrants a year from the Philippines.
 
I rememebr reading that Philipino Independence bill magically coincided with raise of American sugarbeet-based sugar industry. Philipino independence law ended tariff-free export of the Philipino sugar to the mainland...
 
I have to disagree. Have you ever been to the Philippines, or talked to a Filipino? The Philippines is one of the most, if not the most, fluently English-speaking countries in Asia.; what more if America decided to hang around a little longer? Hell, that's why a lot of South Koreans come to study here, not only because of proximity, but the cheap costs we offer yet still for good English. Most official and public events here are done in English anyway even though both English and Tagalog are and the only official languages.

Yes, even after nearly four centuries of Spanish rule, we are more "Americanized", so to speak, than Hispanicized, though admittedly, cultural influences from Spain can still be seen in cuisine, religion, conservatism, and vocabulary. But in language, you rarely see someone here talking in colloquial Spanish. Come to think of it, I've never come across such a situation.

Nope never been to the Philippines (would love to go though). I know English is widely spoken as a second language (with some using it as a first language). Whether or not it is fluently spoken wouldn't alter the fact that the majority of people don't speak it as a first language though (unless everything I've been reading about Filipino languages is out of date). This would still make the Philippines as a state or states unique in that upon it's entry into the Union, English would not be the first language. I could be wrong, but I don't think that has ever happened before in US history. Even Texas had a lot of American settlers first and likewise California I believe.

Nowadays I wouldn't expect anyone to be talking in colloquial Spanish since it's been over 100 years since Spain last ruled the Philippines and a lot happened inbetween. But at the time period we are basically talking about (i.e. at least a few decades before present) what would the situation have been? What was it like in the Philippines, linguistically, between 1898 and 1920? And doesn't Tagalog have a fair amount of Spanish influence? Not saying that it is a Spanish derived language, but doesn't Spanish have the most influence on it out of all the Indo-European languages?

I would imagine that in 1898 the most widely spoken languages would have been the local languages, Tagalog or it's predecessor and Spanish (whether the normal or creole form). If a POD has to occur in the 1920s or earlier for the Philippines to become a state what are the chances that Spanish (regular or localized) would die out as quickly as it did? What are the chances that everything remains the same as in OTL education-wise?

I would hazard to guess that Tagalog and English would still become dominant but any changes in the education system as a result of the POD or any chance that the Philippines become responsible for themselves as a start earlier than the 1940s (very unlikely though) could mean that Spanish lasts a bit longer than in OTL.

Personally though I can't see how the Philippines would become a state or states before the late 1950s or between the 1960s and 1970s.
 
The population of the Philippines was about 16 million come WWII. by comparison, at the same time, New York, at the time the largest state, had about 13.5 million residents. the new york delegation to the house of representatives elected in 1940 (after the census whose figure I cited) had 43 representatives (out of 435), which works out to about one representative per 313,500 constituents. Using this same ratio, the Philippines would have 51 representatives, easily making it the largest state, which would control over ten percent of the house of representatives and 9% of the electoral vote. However, since 1911, the size of the house has been fixed at 435. So what share of the house does the philippines represent? well, it contains about 10.7% of the national population, which works out to 47 seats in the house (note that, in order to accomidate this, many states will lose several seats), and again holds 9% of the electoral vote.

I'm not going to discuss the long-term effects of adding the Philippines to the united states here, either in terms of domestic politics or the philippine standard of living. But note what this represents. the philippines is, in this scenario, instantly the most powerful state in the nation, bar none. many other states will lose out, either directly (weaker house delegations) or indirectly (reduced influence) in this deal. And a few other points. the philippines population has increased since world war two by a factor of 5.75, while the population of America as a whole has multiplied about 2.3 times in the same period. That sort of growth may slow, but it will at least match and probably outstrip the growth of the continental United states for a certain period (although this may be balanced out by emigration). Another factor is that this adds a large population of people who are ethnically, religiously, and linguistically distinct from the rest of America. Finally, all of this will have to be dealt with in advance, since the US had been promising independence for decades and the philippinos werent exactly eager for america to stay (having fought a war to that effect).

In short, all of these issues have to be dealt with at some point, and probably decades before WWII (whether this would impact Japanese strategic planning is an interesting question). personally, I dont know if it would be feasible to introduce the Philippines as less than two of three states (say, Leyte, Mindanao, and a collection of central islands (Samar, leyte, Negros, Panay, palawan)).

The thing about the Philippines population ITTL is that as part of the United States there would be unlimited migration to the mainland U.S. and Hawaii. So I think while the Philippines is still the largest state. What is also true is that Filipinos are the largest ethnic group in the U.S.

But what effect would political attention have on migration to and from the Philippines?

The Philippine population growth rate may not be as high as in OTL, but then for a rough idea perhaps one would need to look at the population growth rates of Puerto Rico before and after 1898 and see if there was any slowing down at all. Even so I would guess that today the Philippines might have 65-80 million and still be the most the populous state (or region if it had been divided into 2 states or more).

However with such a large population, once it became a state or states then both the Republicans and Democrats would spend a lot of time and money campaigning there and they might well push through a number of pork-barrel projects in the Philippines to win votes. With money pouring in, might that encourage some to stay that might otherwise have emigrated to the mainland?
 
A perfectly predictable consequence of that...

"The American has lost his soul, and some would say, his dignity."

- First Inaugural of President Ferdinand E. Marcos (R-PI) , 1965

Ferdinand E. Marcos Wiki entry

U.S. Representative, PI-4: Jan. 1, 1945- Jan. 3, 1949
U.S. Senator from the Philippines (C3): Jan. 3, 1949- Dec. 17, 1960
Governor of the Philippines: Jan. 3, 1961- Nov. 30, 1964
President of the United States: Jan. 20, 1965- Jan. 20, 1973 Succeeded by Robert F. Kennedy (D-NY)



 
Susmariosep, that would be something I would not wish upon my worst enemy...Marcos as President... that's like taking high quality sansrival and then shitting on it...
 
The Presidents from 1957 on...

Richard M. Nixon (R-CA): Sept. 15, 1955- Jan. 20, 1965
Ferdinand E. Marcos (R-PI) Jan. 20, 1965- Jan. 20, 1973
Robert F. Kennedy (D-NY) Jan. 20, 1973-Jan. 20, 1981
Ronald W. Reagan (R-CA) Jan. 20, 1981- Mar. 30, 1981
George H.W. Bush (R-TX) Mar. 30, 1981- Jan. 20, 1989
Mario Cuomo (D-NY) Jan. 20, 1989- Jan. 20, 1997
Bill Clinton (D-AR) Jan. 20, 1997-Jan. 20, 2005
Gloria Macapagal (R-PI) Jan. 20, 2005-present
 
The Tagalog Islands

Philippine independence was one of the Conditions agreed to to stop the Philippine Insurrection in 1904, in the 1920's the date for independence was finally set for 1945,
Any POD for the Philippines becoming part of the US would have to be pre 1920's

That's right,I remember reading something like that..a proposed independence..but no one would have expected 2 World Wars to happen in the future. I would think that if the Philippines would be part of the USA,it would happen a little bit after the USA gained control of the islands from Spain. Much like you said..1900-1920's.

The Philippines were never a part of the USA in the first place, just a colony of the US.

I would guess that would make it part of the USA. It would be classified as a colony,or territory.

The Philippines might be better off today if they remained American territory, preferably as a state. However, they would have problems unique to them. Can you name some of the problems?

Well,I would guess that if the Philippines would become a state..it would have been next to poorly developed Southeast Asian neighbors,like Vietnam and Indonesia. A bit of tension there I think,another aspect would be the Philippines not really considered part of Asia..due to American control.

Kenichiro,

What islands are included in the Southeast islands that your friend is talking about? Is he suggesting that just one part of the Philippines stay with the USA, or the entire present country?

Either way, that would have dramatic changes in post-war history.

I'm not a real expert on the Philippines,it was just brought up in a conversation I had with a friend. I thought it was interesting,due to the fact that the Philippines was the only "real" American possession in Asia.
 
As we all probably know, the Filipinos never wanted annexation; they didn't even want our troops there at all. The Philippines Insurrection (a misnomer, it wasn't an uprising against a legitimate authority but a failed war for independence) was regarded by many Americans at the time as a kind of continuation of our country's recently concluded wars against the American Indians of the West, and as such was waged with considerable cruelty and savagery by both sides.
My dad served in the Army in the Philippines during WW2, and he told me we treated the Filipinos poorly, with airs of patronage, as sepoys rather than allies, and that it was fortunate for us that the Japanese occupiers behaved even worse, otherwise they might have collaborated more readily.
Clearly, the Filipinos weren't strong enough to defend themselves after the Spanish-American War; had US forces left, the islands would probably have been occupied by Japan or a European power. But we could have recognized Philippines independence, and negotiated with them for the use of military bases, which would have served our strategic interests and guarded the Filipinos until they were able to defend themselves.
 
Not at all, I bluntly expressed the way Americans felt about non-whites at the time.

By the way, do you know any good websites about the Filipino military in WW2? I need some info for the upcomming parts of my TL.

http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/philip42.htm

ehh, you sure you need them? our "military" at the time, frankly, was anything but a military. I daresay you could say so even for our current Army :rolleyes:

and, as always, wikipedia is your friend, albeit not a very reliable one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_Philippines_during_World_War_II

Chris S said:
Nope never been to the Philippines (would love to go though). I know English is widely spoken as a second language (with some using it as a first language). Whether or not it is fluently spoken wouldn't alter the fact that the majority of people don't speak it as a first language though (unless everything I've been reading about Filipino languages is out of date). This would still make the Philippines as a state or states unique in that upon it's entry into the Union, English would not be the first language. I could be wrong, but I don't think that has ever happened before in US history. Even Texas had a lot of American settlers first and likewise California I believe.

Nowadays I wouldn't expect anyone to be talking in colloquial Spanish since it's been over 100 years since Spain last ruled the Philippines and a lot happened inbetween. But at the time period we are basically talking about (i.e. at least a few decades before present) what would the situation have been? What was it like in the Philippines, linguistically, between 1898 and 1920? And doesn't Tagalog have a fair amount of Spanish influence? Not saying that it is a Spanish derived language, but doesn't Spanish have the most influence on it out of all the Indo-European languages?

I would imagine that in 1898 the most widely spoken languages would have been the local languages, Tagalog or it's predecessor and Spanish (whether the normal or creole form). If a POD has to occur in the 1920s or earlier for the Philippines to become a state what are the chances that Spanish (regular or localized) would die out as quickly as it did? What are the chances that everything remains the same as in OTL education-wise?

I would hazard to guess that Tagalog and English would still become dominant but any changes in the education system as a result of the POD or any chance that the Philippines become responsible for themselves as a start earlier than the 1940s (very unlikely though) could mean that Spanish lasts a bit longer than in OTL.

Personally though I can't see how the Philippines would become a state or states before the late 1950s or between the 1960s and 1970s.

Ahh, I see what you mean, point taken. Though I think that even if the Americans stayed, we'd still never get State status, even by 2000. We are even more geographically farther from the mainland US than Guam and Hawaii are. Maybe we get the same status as Guam as an unincorporated Territory? Though I see this is harder to do considering we have a much larger population.

Francisco Cojuanco said:
Susmariosep, that would be something I would not wish upon my worst enemy...Marcos as President... that's like taking high quality sansrival and then shitting on it...

Might I ask, are you a Filipino as well? Don't see much of our folk over here :cool:
 
With American checks and balances, FM won't turn out worse than RN did IOTL. But do expect an alliance with Cardinal Spellman on social issues as he did with Sin IOTL.
 
I would guess that would make it part of the USA. It would be classified as a colony,or territory..

Technically Markus is correct. The Philippines were never part of the USA, they were possessions of the USA. The term "United States" can have 3 senses:

1. The States - the 50 states only and not D.C. or any territories.

2. The incorporated territory (i.e. where the full US constitution applies) - so the 50 states, D.C. and any incorporate territories such as Palmyra.

3. The US and all of its possessions - so the states and all territory that is collective possession of the states and is governed by the federal government, including territory where not all of the US constitution applies (such as was the case with the Philippines and all unincorporated territories today).

The Philippines would only be a part of the USA under the 3rd definition and even so just barely considering that Filipinos were never US citizens (they were US nationals, but one can be a national and not a citizen, just as in American Samoa today). After 1935 they ceased even being US nationals and got their own nationality and citizenship.
 
Ahh, I see what you mean, point taken. Though I think that even if the Americans stayed, we'd still never get State status, even by 2000. We are even more geographically farther from the mainland US than Guam and Hawaii are. Maybe we get the same status as Guam as an unincorporated Territory? Though I see this is harder to do considering we have a much larger population.

Yeah it is hard to see the Philippines becoming a state in OTL without a major POD early on. It would take a different attitude by the majority of politicians in America towards the Philippines and a difference in attitude by the majority of Filipinos. It would probably also take a major shift in outlook by many Americans at the time since views on race then were not like what they are now. That's why I figured the Philippines could only become a state after the civil rights movement. It would also need both major parties to desparately want the votes that a Filipino state could offer.
 
My suggestion

What if the Philippines becomes one of the states of the U.S.?


  • If Alaska and Hawaii became states, then the U.S. would have a 51-star flag as of 1960. (assuming that the Philippines was admitted to the U.S. prior to the 1950s)
  • There would be also a guerrilla independence movement much similar to those of Macario Sakay's Tagalog Republic. There would be another Philippine-American War.
  • There would also be a Moro secessionist movement just like the MNLF and the MILF.
 

Markus

Banned
http://www.worldwar2database.com/html/philip42.htm

ehh, you sure you need them? our "military" at the time, frankly, was anything but a military. I daresay you could say so even for our current Army :rolleyes:

and, as always, wikipedia is your friend, albeit not a very reliable one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_Philippines_during_World_War_II

I know, your army broke the record for unpreparedness. Thus thousands of soldiers retired themselves from the PI Army when Japan attacked but most didn´t and in spite of mind boggling problems stopped the Japanese for almost half a year.
In my TL the Philippines never fell and I still have not figured out the exact role of the Second Philippine Expeditionary Force.
 
A bigger challenge is that the in the Atlantic Charter, the USA pretty much mandated British de-colonialisation. Retaining the Philippines was contrary to this stance, so a would a world with the Phillipines as part of the USA entail a decent sized British Empire too?
 
I know, your army broke the record for unpreparedness. Thus thousands of soldiers retired themselves from the PI Army when Japan attacked but most didn´t and in spite of mind boggling problems stopped the Japanese for almost half a year.
In my TL the Philippines never fell and I still have not figured out the exact role of the Second Philippine Expeditionary Force.


Well, sometimes i do fancy myself as being brave :cool:

but anyway, you could look and research on the Philippines' roles/contributions in the Korean and Vietnam Wars for an idea of how the PEF might work. If i recall correctly, we were more in those for more of a civic/medicinal role than anything else. I could be wrong though
 
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