The Person of Edward of Westminster

Suppose, just for a minute, that Tewkesbury had gone the other way - what kind of person might Edward of Westminster have grown into? I know about the two oft-quoted observations about him, however, one - "the cutting off heads...god of battle" - was written by a man who had an axe to grind against the Angevins (Marguerite d'Anjou's family). The other was written by John Fortescue, an English jurist who would've depended on staying in the good graces of the royal family (Lancaster or York).

Susan Higginbotham said:
It's interesting to speculate what type of king Prince Edward would have made had the Lancastrians instead of Edward IV won the battle of Tewkesbury. The circumstances of his youth—growing up in an impoverished exile, dogged by rumors of bastardy, fathered by a man who was insane at his son's birth and who even after his recovery seems to have been fragile mentally—might have made him into a bitter, cold man, or they might have made him into an attractive figure like Charles II, who grew up in not entirely dissimilar circumstances. We shall never know, but surely that's no excuse for novelists to keep churning out the same stereotypical picture of a young man whose life was cut tragically short.

I'd like to know what everyone else thinks.
 
In some earlier thread, someone asked the question. I found it rather convincing when it was answered that his insecure upbringing would be likely to make him violently defensive and distrustful, in fact tyrannical.

Charles II did have a loving father, and more security in his early years.
 
In some earlier thread, someone asked the question. I found it rather convincing when it was answered that his insecure upbringing would be likely to make him violently defensive and distrustful, in fact tyrannical.

Charles II did have a loving father, and more security in his early years.

Short answer is there's no way of knowing; but there's no reason to suppose he'd be any worse than the average Yorkist or Tudor King. After all, none of them were particularly nice.
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
Suppose, just for a minute, that Tewkesbury had gone the other way - what kind of person might Edward of Westminster have grown into? I know about the two oft-quoted observations about him, however, one - "the cutting off heads...god of battle" - was written by a man who had an axe to grind against the Angevins (Marguerite d'Anjou's family). The other was written by John Fortescue, an English jurist who would've depended on staying in the good graces of the royal family (Lancaster or York).



I'd like to know what everyone else thinks.

Edward of Westminister was very likely his mother's son and his mother was Margaret of Anjou. Edward unlike his father would be executing enemies (or perceived enemies) instead of issuing pardons.

Also judging by what we know from references about him, Edward was very brave. Therefore, unlike Henry VI he could become an inspirational figure for the Lancasterian cause.
 
Edward of Westminister was very likely his mother's son and his mother was Margaret of Anjou. Edward unlike his father would be executing enemies (or perceived enemies) instead of issuing pardons.

Also judging by what we know from references about him, Edward was very brave. Therefore, unlike Henry VI he could become an inspirational figure for the Lancastrian cause.

Just out of curiosity, is it possible for him to become a king in the mold of his paternal grandfather? And what might that mean for the English holdings in France with no Edward IV to buy off with venison, pâte and wine?
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
Just out of curiosity, is it possible for him to become a king in the mold of his paternal grandfather? And what might that mean for the English holdings in France with no Edward IV to buy off with venison, pâte and wine?

If Edward of Lancaster became king, he would have gone to war against France. However I cannot see any English campaigns in this territory, resulting in the English adding another city or two to their Calais possession.
 
I was shocked to find out that the inspiration for GoT's King Joffrey was taken from Edward of Westminster. I think that if Edward had even remotely tried to rule something like that he would've ended up falling off the throne faster than he climbed on. Or could he have gotten away with it?
 

Redhand

Banned
I was shocked to find out that the inspiration for GoT's King Joffrey was taken from Edward of Westminster. I think that if Edward had even remotely tried to rule something like that he would've ended up falling off the throne faster than he climbed on. Or could he have gotten away with it?

I didn't know that but it seems to fit seeing as they both had a strange fascination with beheading and had overbearing and scheming mothers who dominated their upbringing.
 

Teejay

Gone Fishin'
I was shocked to find out that the inspiration for GoT's King Joffrey was taken from Edward of Westminster. I think that if Edward had even remotely tried to rule something like that he would've ended up falling off the throne faster than he climbed on. Or could he have gotten away with it?

King Joffrey is a fictional character and only based on the popular perception of Edward of Westminister. This popular perception comes from the few references that have survived relating to him.

Even if Edward of Westminister was a cruel and brutal as the sources described he was. So was his grandfather Henry V and he was remembered as one of England's greatest kings. Also unlike Joffery, Edward of Westminister was brave and willing to fight with his soliders. For example; he and his mother could have just fled back to France instead of fighting the Yorkists in Tewkesbury after defeat of Warwick at Barnet. However he decided to fight the Yorkists instead and lost his life.
 

Redhand

Banned
King Joffrey is a fictional character and only based on the popular perception of Edward of Westminister. This popular perception comes from the few references that have survived relating to him.

Even if Edward of Westminister was a cruel and brutal as the sources described he was. So was his grandfather Henry V and he was remembered as one of England's greatest kings. Also unlike Joffery, Edward of Westminister was brave and willing to fight with his soliders. For example; he and his mother could have just fled back to France instead of fighting the Yorkists in Tewkesbury after defeat of Warwick at Barnet. However he decided to fight the Yorkists instead and lost his life.

I don't question his personal courage but Tewkesbury was because the Lancastrians got pinned against the river trying to flee to Wales to meet up with Jasper Tudor and fleeing to France might not be wise as the French might have turned on them as basically everyone did to each other during the war. Honesty, the war of the roses is probably the only historical event that I just do not get as the conflicting and shifting alliances, different phases of war, and the fact that everyone is maddeningly named Edward or Elizabeth makes it quite a chore to comprehend.

France wasnt all that safe either as if you had their support, the Burgunfians would probably be going after you and vice versa.
 
The Wars of the Roses are the best proof that the Muse of History has a sense of humour.

They got started because Henry VI gave power to unpopular favourites, made a really unpopular marriage which produced an heir whose legitimacy was called into question (his heir presumptive having mysteriously died) and quarrelled with a really powerful Baron, the Earl of Warwick. All this led to a bloody war, the destruction of his dynasty, and the installation of Edward IV, who then proceeded to --

Make a thoroughly unpopular marriage, producing two sons whose legitimacy was later called into question (his heir presumptive having been executed in mysterious circumstances, all of which led in due course to the destruction of his dynasty and the accession of the Tudors.

Promote a small army of his new wife's relatives, who were soon if anything more unpopular than Henry's favourites had ever been.

Fall out with the Earl of Warwick, and nearly lose his throne as a result.

Hardly a change worth several tens of thousands of deaths
 
A link to an article on Edward of Westminster's personality. Do you guys think that it's just making something of nothing? Or is there maybe something to go on?
 
A link to an article on Edward of Westminster's personality. Do you guys think that it's just making something of nothing? Or is there maybe something to go on?

Now that is interesting, a shame she does not sight some of the other sources she used to come to her final conclusion. But I think that is something
 
FWIW, Ralph A Griffiths' Henry VI quotes a letter from EoW to the earl of Ormond, written in his own hand so that "ye mey se how gode a wrytare I ame". This suggests that Edward (who would have been ten or eleven at the time) took pride in other accomplishments beside purely military one.

The spelling, BTW, was normal for the 15C, and does not imply any lack of literacy on Edward's part.
 
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