The People's Fighter

What if, instead of adopting the ME262, the German Luftwaffe had issued, in late 1942, a requirement similar to the OTL directive which eventually lead to the development of the HE162 Volksjager jet fighter? Let's assume the directive is issued in September 1942, and a near duplicate of the OTL fighter is designed, tested, and in production by mid-summer 1943 (a longer period than the OTL Volksjager, to allow for the design issues which afflicted the OTL aircraft to be worked out).

The Luftwaffe also decides to phase out production of ME109s and FW190s by the end of 1943 to concentrate solely on production of this aircraft.

This aircraft could have been produced very cheaply in very large numbers, and would have been the fastest fighter in the air, bar none (it was faster even than the OTL ME262). So by early 1944 the allies are facing roughly twice the number of Luftwaffe fighters (both jet and piston) which existed in OTL, and they are almost all Volksjagers.

How would this have affected the air war in Europe?
 
The main problem is that the HE162 required a very good pilot with a light touch.

I don't think the Germans can muster up the pilot training program to crew the aircraft compared to the far easier to fly piston fighters.
 
I had a similar thought on the Wunderwaffen thread.

Less than a hundred days from drawing board to flying? Built using non-strategic materials? I implied it would have serious repercussions for the joint US/British bombing offensive (Operation Pointblank) which began in the summer of '43.

How does it effect the switch to tactical bombing that took place in early '44? If enough HE 162's are in the air throughout 1944 over Germany does the strategic bombing even resume, or is the RAF's Battle of Berlin earlier that year the last area bombing campaign?
 

Archibald

Banned
The He-162 was insane to fly, at least in combat at high speed. They wanted to train pilots on gliders (!!), german kamikazes anybody ?
 
The main problem is that the HE162 required a very good pilot with a light touch.

I don't think the Germans can muster up the pilot training program to crew the aircraft compared to the far easier to fly piston fighters.

True, but that was largely a result of the rushed development program. In this ATL they have more time to work out the kinks and could probably come up with something easier on the novice flyer.

Also, a LOT of experienced Luftwaffe pilots were killed in late 1943 and 1944 because the Luftwaffe had increased armament and armor on their piston fighters so as to make them more effective bomber killers. This made them slower and less maneuverable, and they fell easy prey to the American P-51 Mustang escort fighters which were coming into the fight in large numbers for the first time during that period.

In this ATL, these pilots will be flying Volksjagers, and in all likelihood, aren't killed in action. That will help with the training issue somewhat.
 
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Then the Allies would accelerate the entry into service of the De-Havilland Vampire and Lockheed Shooting Star.
 
Well,in OTL, the De Havilland vampire had its maiden flight[or to be more accurate,the prototype LZ548/G variant] on 20 september,1943. Production began 19 months later in April,1945. The Lockheed F-80 shooting star intended for use with Halford H.1b[Goblin] jet engine had its first flight[in prototype XP-80 form] in January,1944.
In the ATL,with the He162 coming about in greater numbers as 1943 progresses i'm sure we'll see the intro of the Vampire accelerated[so,the first flight probably occurs in early-43 and production in late 43/early 44] The F-80 will probably be in production for early 44. So,by early 44,allied jets will certainly be in the air and fighting the luftwaffe. However,the Germans will have a few months free in 1943 from enemy jets and may be able to put a dent[perhaps not a significant one,though] in the allied strategic bomber campaign.
 
There will not be a free hand for the German jets as the Gloster Meteor will also be fast-tracked and that was in service in '44 in OTL so that could realistically be in service in it's superior F-3 guise in '43 just before the Vamp' and Shooting Star.
 
Then the Allies would accelerate the entry into service of the De-Havilland Vampire and Lockheed Shooting Star.

Well,in OTL, the De Havilland vampire had its maiden flight[or to be more accurate,the prototype LZ548/G variant] on 20 september,1943. Production began 19 months later in April,1945. The Lockheed F-80 shooting star intended for use with Halford H.1b[Goblin] jet engine had its first flight[in prototype XP-80 form] in January,1944.
In the ATL,with the He162 coming about in greater numbers as 1943 progresses i'm sure we'll see the intro of the Vampire accelerated[so,the first flight probably occurs in early-43 and production in late 43/early 44] The F-80 will probably be in production for early 44. So,by early 44,allied jets will certainly be in the air and fighting the luftwaffe. However,the Germans will have a few months free in 1943 from enemy jets and may be able to put a dent[perhaps not a significant one,though] in the allied strategic bomber campaign.

There will not be a free hand for the German jets as the Gloster Meteor will also be fast-tracked and that was in service in '44 in OTL so that could realistically be in service in it's superior F-3 guise in '43 just before the Vamp' and Shooting Star.

What you are all forgetting is that the early jet engines used in these early Allied jet fighters, like their German counterparts, consumed fuel in prodigious quantities, giving the aircraft very limited range. Later jet engines solved that problem, of course, but those weren't available in late 1943 and 1944 (indeed, not really until after the war). So the Allies might rush these jets into production in late 1943, but they won't be flying escort for Allied bombers over Germany until forward bases are acquired, sometime after D-Day in June 1944. The Germans will have all the advantage, because they will be operating from bases close to where combat is going to take place, not at the very end of the range of their aircraft. In essence, it would be the Battle of Britain in reverse. Allied bombers are going to have a VERY hard time over Germany.
 
What you are all forgetting is that the early jet engines used in these early Allied jet fighters, like their German counterparts, consumed fuel in prodigious quantities, giving the aircraft very limited range. Later jet engines solved that problem, of course, but those weren't available in late 1943 and 1944 (indeed, not really until after the war). So the Allies might rush these jets into production in late 1943, but they won't be flying escort for Allied bombers over Germany until forward bases are acquired, sometime after D-Day in June 1944. The Germans will have all the advantage, because they will be operating from bases close to where combat is going to take place, not at the very end of the range of their aircraft. In essence, it would be the Battle of Britain in reverse. Allied bombers are going to have a VERY hard time over Germany.

The Allie's jets did not use fuel in prodigious quantities as they used centrifugal flow turbines not axial flow and the fuel consumption was not nearly so high as the German machines. The first generation jets of the Allies, P-80, Vampire, Meteor had ranges of around 1,000 miles. This was not as good as a Mustang or Mosquito but with drop tanks added a respectable radius of operation. Together with the piston engined fighters a reduced bombing campaign could have been provided with escort cover.
 
True, but that was largely a result of the rushed development program. In this ATL they have more time to work out the kinks and could probably come up with something easier on the novice flyer.

Also, a LOT of experienced Luftwaffe pilots were killed in late 1943 and 1944 because the Luftwaffe had increased armament and armor on their piston fighters so as to make them more effective bomber killers. This made them slower and less maneuverable, and they fell easy prey to the American P-51 Mustang escort fighters which were coming into the fight in large numbers for the first time during that period.

In this ATL, these pilots will be flying Volksjagers, and in all likelihood, aren't killed in action. That will help with the training issue somewhat.

Question: how theoretically sound was the airframe? I'd always assumed it was one of those things like a flying wing that work better on paper than in practice. If the airframe is fundamentally unstable no amount of development is going to make a difference.Wiki quoted one pilot as finding it "fun" but "tricky" and definitely for "experienced pilots". How much of that was rushed development and how much was limitations of the airframe?

Also, what about the Volksjaegers would make them any less vulnerable on takeoff/landing than OTL's 262?
 
robertp6165 said:
What you are all forgetting is that the early jet engines used in these early Allied jet fighters, like their German counterparts, consumed fuel in prodigious quantities, giving the aircraft very limited range. Later jet engines solved that problem, of course, but those weren't available in late 1943 and 1944 (indeed, not really until after the war). So the Allies might rush these jets into production in late 1943, but they won't be flying escort for Allied bombers over Germany until forward bases are acquired, sometime after D-Day in June 1944. The Germans will have all the advantage, because they will be operating from bases close to where combat is going to take place, not at the very end of the range of their aircraft. In essence, it would be the Battle of Britain in reverse. Allied bombers are going to have a VERY hard time over Germany
The Allie's jets did not use fuel in prodigious quantities as they used centrifugal flow turbines not axial flow and the fuel consumption was not nearly so high as the German machines. The first generation jets of the Allies, P-80, Vampire, Meteor had ranges of around 1,000 miles. This was not as good as a Mustang or Mosquito but with drop tanks added a respectable radius of operation. Together with the piston engined fighters a reduced bombing campaign could have been provided with escort cover

But why/how do the Allies know to have their 1st generation jet fighters in the air in time for 1944? How do they know to fastrack these designs just because the Nazis have had a flash of inspiration and commissioned the He162 during the summer of 1943?

Remember, if the Ministry of Air hadn't stuck a Merlin into the Mustang or Hap Arnold hadn't placed an order for the resulting plane, then the USAAF bombers probably would've ended up flying to Berlin with an escort of drop-tank-equipped Lightnings* throughout the last 18 months of the war.

And adopting Mustang tech wasn't nearly as radical a departure as adopting jet technology. (The Germans, on the other hand, were just desperate enough to go for a radical departure...)



*I assume someone would come-up with Lindbergh's technical advice for nursing the P 38 to extreme long distances a bit earlier if necessary.
 
But why/how do the Allies know to have their 1st generation jet fighters in the air in time for 1944? How do they know to fastrack these designs just because the Nazis have had a flash of inspiration and commissioned the He162 during the summer of 1943?

The Meteor was in service and the Vampire and Shooting Star were flying. It was an executive decision to not use them in service but continue with piston engined machines. If the German jets became a problem they could have simply pressed them into service.
 
The Meteor was in service and the Vampire and Shooting Star were flying. It was an executive decision to not use them in service but continue with piston engined machines. If the German jets became a problem they could have simply pressed them into service.

Actually, I notice that the OP is, "Let's assume the directive is issued in September 1942, and a near duplicate of the OTL fighter is designed, tested, and in production by mid-summer 1943."

I think this could see many months of the Luftwaffe inflicting seriously heavier losses on the 8th Air Force than OTL.

So the three allied jet models are probably in the air and ready for combat by D-Day.
 
Actually, I notice that the OP is, "Let's assume the directive is issued in September 1942, and a near duplicate of the OTL fighter is designed, tested, and in production by mid-summer 1943."

I think this could see many months of the Luftwaffe inflicting seriously heavier losses on the 8th Air Force than OTL.

So the three allied jet models are probably in the air and ready for combat by D-Day.

In OTL the Meteor did enter service by D-Day, De-Havilland and Lockheed were both producing front line piston engined aircraft whilst Gloster were only assembling Hurricanes under license. The Allies made the right decision in OTL to put jet production on the back burner. The question is how soon could the British and American aviation industry respond to an accelerated threat of jet aircraft from Germany. In my opinion very quickly and they would outproduce the German industry significantly giving the same outcome as OTL. Even so it would make for some interesting contacts in the air.
 
The main problem is that German jet engines had not reached the degree of reliability that any jet airplane could have been rushed into production and operation much before late 1944. If they had reached such a level in 1942/43, why shouldn't the Germans not just advance the introduction of the Me-262 or He-280, which were in development? Also, the war situation in 1943 was not at the stage anyone would push an "emergency fighter" and/or just stop the production of proven planes like the Bf109 or Fw190. Finally, by all accounts, the He162 was aerodynamically unstable and difficult for anyone but an experienced pilot to master - much more difficult to transition to than the Me 262. Yes, with short term application of maximum thrust, the He 162 could fly marginally faster than the Me 262, and may have been slightly more agile. But in all other respects, armament, endurance, range, basic sophistication, the 262 was a much better and more versatile plane.
 
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