The Penultimate Problem? WI Moriarty survived Riechenbach Falls

Pretty much what it says on the tin.:p

We know Holmes did. No reason Moriarty couldn't....

So what does this do to the canon? To detective fiction?
 
Pretty much what it says on the tin.:p

We know Holmes did. No reason Moriarty couldn't....

So what does this do to the canon? To detective fiction?

Well, this implies that Doyle wants to write another story featuring Moriarty. The good Professor, after all, had been created for the sole purpose of providing Holmes with a strong antagonist who would kill him.

Now, if Doyle does decide to return Moriarty, the chances are pretty good that he comes to fit the proto-pulp form of a main antagonist and super villain; much as Joe Sunshine was for Doc Savage or the Khan for the Shadow (albeit much earlier).

The problem, of course, is that Holmes is a detective, which means that you really can not know who the villain is before the story is over (it kills the suspense and defeats the purpose of the story). The second Moriarty shows his face, this problem is going to rear up.

Now, Moriarty has many of the same skills as Holmes (this was really dealt with nicely in the Sherlock series, I think) and so he likely has the same ability to create disguises and the like. But ... really, having Holmes rip off the mask of the villain to reveal the face of Moriarty beneath it is going to grow old very, very, quickly and is going to pull the stories down to the same level as Scooby-Doo ("and I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for the Detective and his doctor!")

I could possibly see Moriarty appearing for one more story, but anything beyond that is going to degrade the series.
 
Well, this implies that Doyle wants to write another story featuring Moriarty. The good Professor, after all, had been created for the sole purpose of providing Holmes with a strong antagonist who would kill him.

Now, if Doyle does decide to return Moriarty, the chances are pretty good that he comes to fit the proto-pulp form of a main antagonist and super villain; much as Joe Sunshine was for Doc Savage or the Khan for the Shadow (albeit much earlier).

The problem, of course, is that Holmes is a detective, which means that you really can not know who the villain is before the story is over (it kills the suspense and defeats the purpose of the story). The second Moriarty shows his face, this problem is going to rear up.

Now, Moriarty has many of the same skills as Holmes (this was really dealt with nicely in the Sherlock series, I think) and so he likely has the same ability to create disguises and the like. But ... really, having Holmes rip off the mask of the villain to reveal the face of Moriarty beneath it is going to grow old very, very, quickly and is going to pull the stories down to the same level as Scooby-Doo ("and I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for the Detective and his doctor!")

I could possibly see Moriarty appearing for one more story, but anything beyond that is going to degrade the series.

Not really, he would just have to write it so Holmes never DIRECTLY meets Moriarty again. He was supposed to be a mastermind not a street criminal after all. He might find out Moriarty is behind it before or afterwards but he is long gone by the time Sherlock shows up. He certainly shouldn't be involved in EVERY Holmes story even as the mastermind. That would get too predictable.
 
The best way would, ironically, be something like the background to the Game of Shadows film. A series of crimes interspersed throughout the series that Holmes gradually suspects, then realises and finally conjecturally proves to be linked, then works out that Moriaty is behind it, before finally having a single story where the denouement comes and Moriaty is finally defeated.
 
The best way would, ironically, be something like the background to the Game of Shadows film. A series of crimes interspersed throughout the series that Holmes gradually suspects, then realises and finally conjecturally proves to be linked, then works out that Moriaty is behind it, before finally having a single story where the denouement comes and Moriaty is finally defeated.

Makes sense to me.
 
I had another thought, watching BBC's production: Moriarty isn't the sole mastermind, but a member of an international syndicate.

As for Doyle, I agree, it depends on what he wants. However, that doesn't exclude other writers taking on the task. (Nicholas Meyer comes to mind.) It's a variation on the fate of the supervillain, I suppose: dead or jail is only a hiatus, til a new writer (who likes him) decides to bring him back. :p

I also agree, actually seeing Moriarty would be tedious in very short order.

However, given Doyle does keep him alive, & does want to keep using him, does this change Holmes substantially? I had a sense he was diminished without Moriarty; his (covert) return, alone or as a Syndicalist,:p would seem to force Holmes to elevate his game.

Maybe this is a product of exposure to serial drama, tho: the cases of TV characters tend to want to get bigger & more serious as shows go on. Though that would have offered Doyle opportunities to kill Holmes off, too: he finally gets a case where he's over his head.:eek:
 
The best way would, ironically, be something like the background to the Game of Shadows film. A series of crimes interspersed throughout the series that Holmes gradually suspects, then realises and finally conjecturally proves to be linked, then works out that Moriaty is behind it, before finally having a single story where the denouement comes and Moriaty is finally defeated.

The same thing is also implied in the first season of the Granada TV series of the Adventures of Sherlock Holmes with Jeremy Brett.
 
Blackfox5 said:
The same thing is also implied in the first season of the Granada TV series of the Adventures of Sherlock Holmes with Jeremy Brett.
I haven't read every one of the stories, but IIRC, Moriarty is named in several, including the gold robbery (first mention of the name, IIRC), but first seen in "The Final Problem".
 
Its been done ..

in a short story, by Robert Bloch I think

{spoilers ahead}

set in a nursing home in the late 1950s or early 60s
a carer turns on the black and white TV so a crippled, bedridden, very old patient can watch pictures of an early space shot

The old man smiles, and murmurs to himself, "Dynamics of an Asteroid indeed, Mr Holmes"

The nurse turns round and asks "Did you say something, Professor M?"
 
The best way would, ironically, be something like the background to the Game of Shadows film. A series of crimes interspersed throughout the series that Holmes gradually suspects, then realises and finally conjecturally proves to be linked, then works out that Moriaty is behind it, before finally having a single story where the denouement comes and Moriaty is finally defeated.
That was sort of what Doyle did in one story The Valley of Fear, written after The Final Problem but set before. Holmes and Watson investigate some schemes of Moriarty's agents in America, while Moriarty himself is frequently referenced but never himself appears or participates in anything except planning.

Now, Moriarty has many of the same skills as Holmes (this was really dealt with nicely in the Sherlock series, I think) and so he likely has the same ability to create disguises and the like. But ... really, having Holmes rip off the mask of the villain to reveal the face of Moriarty beneath it is going to grow old very, very, quickly and is going to pull the stories down to the same level as Scooby-Doo ("and I would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for the Detective and his doctor!")

I could possibly see Moriarty appearing for one more story, but anything beyond that is going to degrade the series.
I agree. Even in The Valley of Fear, it seemed to me like it was starting to get old. Admittedly, to a large extent, that was because I didn't really like that book's plot and probably because Doyle was getting tired of Holmes by then; better writing could have improved it. But even so, each Moriarty story should ideally make some progress and build toward a final conclusion, so it doesn't grow old like you said - and that's going to take a level of planning that I don't think Doyle ever demonstrated.
 
Evan said:
that's going to take a level of planning that I don't think Doyle ever demonstrated.
It could be I, & we all, are expecting a level of sophistication that would never have arisen at the time these were written. We're all vastly more experienced with serial drama & continuing characters, & vastly more used to "dead" characters returning. We also have much higher expectations of internal consistency. Doyle, OTOH, contradicted himself on Holmes' birthdate:eek: (which, I suspect, the producers of "House" deliberately copied:cool:) & Moriarty's given name.:eek:

So even if Doyle kept Moriarty alive, would he have done more? Or does this really depend on later writers doing what Meyer did?
 
Darth_Kiryan said:
Then he becomes Blofeld to Holmes' James Bond.
He already was. I had in mind more Michael Weston's "agency opposition", where you've got Carla, & Michael Shanks' character (name I can't recall:eek:), & Simon, & ultimately Management...where Moriarty is more like Carla than Management.

Or more like the Board in "Rollerball" (the real one, 1975, not that awful remake:eek:).
 
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