Either case it's a really odd place to be having a battle. Out in the middle of nowhere, far from water and food sources, population centers or any other resource other than basalt, which already losing value due to metal tools being imported?
The Partitioning of Hawaii
- Thread starter The Kiat
- Start date
Either case it's a really odd place to be having a battle. Out in the middle of nowhere, far from water and food sources, population centers or any other resource other than basalt, which already losing value due to metal tools being imported?
North slope of Kea should sit between Hilo and Kohala. Doesn't seem that strange to march from Hilo towards Kohala.
Suppose it doesn't matter for the big picture, since Hawaii isn't going to be the centerpiece in the island chain.
3) Maui Ascendant
In 1786, the island of Maui received more visited from distant lands. French explorer Jean Francois de Galaup arrived on Maui after departing Easter Island. He heard tales of Cook’s expedition, and of the hostility of Hawaii compared with the hospitality of Maui. De Galaup attempted to forge a deal with Kahekili II, an early attempt to annex the island, with dismal results. Future French attempts to gain a foothold in the islands would focus on Hawaii itself. In 1790, American fur traders, seeking seal, sea otter and other maritime furs, arrived on Maui, where natives managed to steal the ship’s cutter. Attempts to regain the boat resulted in a native village being reduced by the ship’s gun.
In 1792, a British expedition under the commander of George Vancouver arrived on the island. After dealings with the French and Americans, the Mauians were weary of outsiders, even more of Cook’s people. Vancouver brought with him not ill intentions, but gifts, including several head of cattle. The Big Island would have made far better country for cattle, but Cook’s reception, as well as ongoing warfare, gave zero chance of a landing occurring there. Despite this, a few Hawaiians attempted to contact Vancouver while he was anchored off Maui.
Along with cattle, Vancouver brought along several advisors who expressed interest in visiting the islands. The British captain was hesitant to fulfill requests for firearms. Kahekili II was a brutal conqueror. In the conquest of Oahu, some years before contact, he killed all the chiefs who opposed him, and used their bones in the construction of houses. Not only was he brutal, but ambitious. Those aged for the day, he still had designs on furthering his control over Kauai (his brother was consort to the Queen of Kauai) and of conquering Hawaii. During the wintering on Maui, the Mauians learned much from the British, and did eventually obtain a small supply of muskets.
What the British truly desired from Maui was not even on Maui. On the island of Oahu, a natural harbor unlike anywhere in the world lay smack in the middle of the Pacific. In 1807, the British government sent envoys to the Kalanikupule, the new King of Maui. A treaty was signed between the two kingdoms. Most of the treaty detailed trade. Pearl Harbor had potential for a great commercial hub, though Honolulu would continue being the favorite port-of-call until the late 19th Century.
Along with the trade of goods, the trade of ideas flowed into Maui. Behind the British Captains and Diplomats came the Missionaries. Anglican missions opened up schools and began to teach the Mauians how to read and write. Most of this was done in English, though the Mauians did develop a written language for their own language, using the Latin alphabet. Education was one of the positive effects of the missions, but only one of a few. Missionary priests were quite appalled by the lack of modesty among the natives, as well as made a concerted effort to stamp out what they saw as heathen practices. Worse than the British Missionaries were the American ones, far more evangelized than their British cousins. The conversion of Maui to Christianity was a slow process, taking the better part of a century before many of the old ways were largely abandoned.
Mauians purchased several aging British merchantmen for use in their own attempts at transoceanic trade, though Polynesians were more than capable of building smaller ocean-going vessels. Within a decade, these Maui merchantmen would sail as far as China, where a hunger for sandalwood was hard to satisfy. So much so, that by the 1830s, Sandalwood trees were growing scarce on Maui. Along with trade goods from across the Pacific, the merchantmen brought back many exotic diseases that would ravage the Mauian population for decades to come.
In 1786, the island of Maui received more visited from distant lands. French explorer Jean Francois de Galaup arrived on Maui after departing Easter Island. He heard tales of Cook’s expedition, and of the hostility of Hawaii compared with the hospitality of Maui. De Galaup attempted to forge a deal with Kahekili II, an early attempt to annex the island, with dismal results. Future French attempts to gain a foothold in the islands would focus on Hawaii itself. In 1790, American fur traders, seeking seal, sea otter and other maritime furs, arrived on Maui, where natives managed to steal the ship’s cutter. Attempts to regain the boat resulted in a native village being reduced by the ship’s gun.
In 1792, a British expedition under the commander of George Vancouver arrived on the island. After dealings with the French and Americans, the Mauians were weary of outsiders, even more of Cook’s people. Vancouver brought with him not ill intentions, but gifts, including several head of cattle. The Big Island would have made far better country for cattle, but Cook’s reception, as well as ongoing warfare, gave zero chance of a landing occurring there. Despite this, a few Hawaiians attempted to contact Vancouver while he was anchored off Maui.
Along with cattle, Vancouver brought along several advisors who expressed interest in visiting the islands. The British captain was hesitant to fulfill requests for firearms. Kahekili II was a brutal conqueror. In the conquest of Oahu, some years before contact, he killed all the chiefs who opposed him, and used their bones in the construction of houses. Not only was he brutal, but ambitious. Those aged for the day, he still had designs on furthering his control over Kauai (his brother was consort to the Queen of Kauai) and of conquering Hawaii. During the wintering on Maui, the Mauians learned much from the British, and did eventually obtain a small supply of muskets.
What the British truly desired from Maui was not even on Maui. On the island of Oahu, a natural harbor unlike anywhere in the world lay smack in the middle of the Pacific. In 1807, the British government sent envoys to the Kalanikupule, the new King of Maui. A treaty was signed between the two kingdoms. Most of the treaty detailed trade. Pearl Harbor had potential for a great commercial hub, though Honolulu would continue being the favorite port-of-call until the late 19th Century.
Along with the trade of goods, the trade of ideas flowed into Maui. Behind the British Captains and Diplomats came the Missionaries. Anglican missions opened up schools and began to teach the Mauians how to read and write. Most of this was done in English, though the Mauians did develop a written language for their own language, using the Latin alphabet. Education was one of the positive effects of the missions, but only one of a few. Missionary priests were quite appalled by the lack of modesty among the natives, as well as made a concerted effort to stamp out what they saw as heathen practices. Worse than the British Missionaries were the American ones, far more evangelized than their British cousins. The conversion of Maui to Christianity was a slow process, taking the better part of a century before many of the old ways were largely abandoned.
Mauians purchased several aging British merchantmen for use in their own attempts at transoceanic trade, though Polynesians were more than capable of building smaller ocean-going vessels. Within a decade, these Maui merchantmen would sail as far as China, where a hunger for sandalwood was hard to satisfy. So much so, that by the 1830s, Sandalwood trees were growing scarce on Maui. Along with trade goods from across the Pacific, the merchantmen brought back many exotic diseases that would ravage the Mauian population for decades to come.
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It is when you've got thousands of men on bare foot, walking across a'a lava fields for miles with no major water or food source around, and the only way you can hold water and food is gourds. This is Neolithic logistics we're talking about here. Armies lived off the land. Moreover the terrain isn't exactly the type that was popular for battles in Hawaii. It's far too open, with kipuka all around. The losing side could scatter, hide and regroup.
Frankly, if you're just going to handwave away things like that which could be resolved with a book or two on Hawaiian history and geography, I have serious doubts about your ability to accurately account for the details of Hawaii. Just because it's not WWII doesn't mean we get to be sloppy.
::Facepalm::
Pearl Harbor is nigh useless as a berth until industrial dredging technologies are invented. At this time period anyone trying to get into it with anything bigger than a canoe is going to run aground. Why do you think they used Honolulu Harbor until the 20th century?
David S Poepoe
Banned
The volcano bit does echo a historical event in the unification wars of Kamehameha:
"In 1790 Kamehameha went on to overthrow Keawema’uhili of the district of Puna. Meanwhile, Keoua, the brother of Kiwala’o, started an uprising in the district of Ka’u, forcing Kamehameha to return and stamp out the uprising. When the army of Keoua rushed out to meet the army of Kamehameha, one third of the army was killed by poisonous gas from a volcano. A year later Kamehameha invited Keoua to a feast where he was murdered on the beach."
Well, the difference being that if a decisive battle was going to happen, neither would have it happen in the open area like the saddle of the mountains. It would be tactically useless for both sides. They'd want ideally someplace where there can be an element of tactical surprise or easy observation of movement, a place where movement can be restricted, like against cliffs, against the ocean, or inside a valley. Despite the presence of gunpowder arms, this is more or less a traditional melee battle fought by troops that use only the most basic formations. There are no lines of battle. It's a big moving brawl.
Except there wouldn't be many guns on Hawaii at this point in this particular timeline.
Gunrunner has a point though.
Pearl is very shallow, and most whalers preferred the Port of Honolulu.
It wasn't until the mid/late 1800s that they began to improve and work on it.
I know, I even amended it to allude to Honolulu. I'm thinking the British would eventually develop the area. Too forward thinking for the early 1800s?
That wasn't the point. It was the quoting the whole article and then using the facepalm thing. He could have just quoted the offending line and said "hey, your geography is wrong!"
Now what sort of outlandish thing can I do to Kauai?
4) Tropical Gulag
With Kahekili, and later his heir Kalanikupule, casting eyes towards taking more control of Kauai, the Kauaians were in desperate scrapes. With the death of Queen Kamakahelei, her son Kaumualii became King of Kauai. With a new trade in sandalwood to China, Maui sought more of the wood to sell for Chinese goods. Kauai had its own groves of Sandalwood trees, and instead of allowing Kauai its own trade, the King of Maui decided to make them his own. Maui’s first attempt in 1809 was called off due to an epidemic raging through Kalanikupule’s army, claiming many warriors.
Before Maui made the attempt on seizing direct control over Kauai, a rather fortuitous event occurred. In 1815, a ship owned by the Russian-American Company wrecked off Kauai, survivors making it to the island. These were like the outsiders that arrived off Kauai decades previous, and have made many voyages to the Hawaiian Islands since. Kaumualii welcomed the foreigners, and attempted to communicate with them. A few in Kauai had learn the English language, which proved of little use to these new foreigners. A few of the Russian sailors had some grasp of English, and a long, protracted negotiation was entered.
During their time on the island, the stranded Russians (as well as other nationalities under contract) built a small fort. This later evolved into Fort Elizabeth. In late 1816, Kaumualii signed a treaty with the Russian-American company, which he believed was an alliance with this powerful and distant land. In the terms of the treaty, Kauai became a Russian Protectorate, and would turn out to be not as equal as the King believed. Along with Fort Elizabeth, the Russians constructed Fort Alexander on the northern coast of the island. Situated on Hanalei Bay, Fort Alexander soon became the chief port for the Russian import-export business. This base allowed the Russians to extend their claim westward as far as Midway and Wake.
At first, the alliance was great for Kauai. Along with Russian forts and guns, Russian soldiers garrisoned these installations, and Kauaian warriors were trained in the European style of warfare, including the use of muskets. The Russian-American Company kept a tight control over powder and ammunition. The Russian brought outside trade as well. The Russian-American Company was foremost interested in the hides of marine mammals, which they ruthlessly hunted across the northern Pacific. For additional profit, the Russians, instead of the Mauians, extracted the sandalwood from Kauai, virtually eliminating the tree from Kauai and Niihau.
When fur began to dwindle, the Company was saved by the cultivation of sugar. All the other European powers had their sugar islands, so why should the Tsar not? Along with sugar, Kauai produced banana, coconut and other tropical produce. These produced some profit, but that was dwarfed by the sugar trade. To keep up with demand, the Russians began to press more of the Kauaians into the sugar fields. When the native population was struck by a severe outbreak of small pox in 1836, a new source of labor was sought. The Russian-American Company began to import various peoples the Tsar’s regime deemed undesirable for penal servitude.
The culture of Kauai began to shrink at the influx of nationalities from across the Russian Empire. The surviving elite of the island found themselves speaking more Russian than their native language. The end of Kauaian religion came in 1851, when the Russians forced the natives to convert to the Russian Orthodox Church. The last Kauai King, Kauamilii II lead a rebellion against the now Russian oppressors. The rebellion was crushed, and the last King executed on November 3, 1851. Following the uprising, the Russian Empire outright annexed the islands of Kauai.
4) Tropical Gulag
With Kahekili, and later his heir Kalanikupule, casting eyes towards taking more control of Kauai, the Kauaians were in desperate scrapes. With the death of Queen Kamakahelei, her son Kaumualii became King of Kauai. With a new trade in sandalwood to China, Maui sought more of the wood to sell for Chinese goods. Kauai had its own groves of Sandalwood trees, and instead of allowing Kauai its own trade, the King of Maui decided to make them his own. Maui’s first attempt in 1809 was called off due to an epidemic raging through Kalanikupule’s army, claiming many warriors.
Before Maui made the attempt on seizing direct control over Kauai, a rather fortuitous event occurred. In 1815, a ship owned by the Russian-American Company wrecked off Kauai, survivors making it to the island. These were like the outsiders that arrived off Kauai decades previous, and have made many voyages to the Hawaiian Islands since. Kaumualii welcomed the foreigners, and attempted to communicate with them. A few in Kauai had learn the English language, which proved of little use to these new foreigners. A few of the Russian sailors had some grasp of English, and a long, protracted negotiation was entered.
During their time on the island, the stranded Russians (as well as other nationalities under contract) built a small fort. This later evolved into Fort Elizabeth. In late 1816, Kaumualii signed a treaty with the Russian-American company, which he believed was an alliance with this powerful and distant land. In the terms of the treaty, Kauai became a Russian Protectorate, and would turn out to be not as equal as the King believed. Along with Fort Elizabeth, the Russians constructed Fort Alexander on the northern coast of the island. Situated on Hanalei Bay, Fort Alexander soon became the chief port for the Russian import-export business. This base allowed the Russians to extend their claim westward as far as Midway and Wake.
At first, the alliance was great for Kauai. Along with Russian forts and guns, Russian soldiers garrisoned these installations, and Kauaian warriors were trained in the European style of warfare, including the use of muskets. The Russian-American Company kept a tight control over powder and ammunition. The Russian brought outside trade as well. The Russian-American Company was foremost interested in the hides of marine mammals, which they ruthlessly hunted across the northern Pacific. For additional profit, the Russians, instead of the Mauians, extracted the sandalwood from Kauai, virtually eliminating the tree from Kauai and Niihau.
When fur began to dwindle, the Company was saved by the cultivation of sugar. All the other European powers had their sugar islands, so why should the Tsar not? Along with sugar, Kauai produced banana, coconut and other tropical produce. These produced some profit, but that was dwarfed by the sugar trade. To keep up with demand, the Russians began to press more of the Kauaians into the sugar fields. When the native population was struck by a severe outbreak of small pox in 1836, a new source of labor was sought. The Russian-American Company began to import various peoples the Tsar’s regime deemed undesirable for penal servitude.
The culture of Kauai began to shrink at the influx of nationalities from across the Russian Empire. The surviving elite of the island found themselves speaking more Russian than their native language. The end of Kauaian religion came in 1851, when the Russians forced the natives to convert to the Russian Orthodox Church. The last Kauai King, Kauamilii II lead a rebellion against the now Russian oppressors. The rebellion was crushed, and the last King executed on November 3, 1851. Following the uprising, the Russian Empire outright annexed the islands of Kauai.
David S Poepoe
Banned
The problem with sugar cultivation in the 1830s is that exactly how far does it have to be transfered? Sugar wasn't refined in Hawaii, but sent to factories in California. Large scale sugar growing doesn't become possible until irrigation canals are built, it is a water intensive grass.
It took a lot of trial and error to figure out what could be grown in Hawaii for export.
It took a lot of trial and error to figure out what could be grown in Hawaii for export.
That puts a cramp in the Russians' plans. The Hawaiians cultivated their own sugar, but I suppose Russian markets are a tad further away. When you say refined, are you talking molasses and rum?
There's a thought: Rum becomes the drink of the Russian elite. Or at least for those who can afford it.
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In general I don't read much TLs here for that reason. Those that don't have gigantic historical errors in them are often written with prose a 1930s pulp writer would find wooden and unrealistic. However, Hawaii is a personal and professional interest for me, being someone who is both Hawaiian and works in local history. So, I feel obliged to give it the full Sealion treatment.
Note, it's not the premise I'm questioning, that's fine. It's the historical details. For example, I didn't even touch on the absolute craziness of Hawaiians building western style ships. Sure, they bought old ships and crewed them just fine, but Hawaii lacks two major resources needed to build ships, namely metal and woven cloth. Nails were so expensive you could trade livestock for a small handful of them until the 1820s. Not to mention ship building and maintanence is a completely different skill set than crewing and sailing. Most ship Hawaiians brought went into bad disrepair and sank. There weren't really trained shipwrights in the Pacific until the 1850s.
That's just *one* thing. I haven't the time to get into others until later tonight.
David S Poepoe
Banned
In this case refined sugar is 'white table sugar', brown sugar and all others. "C&H Sugar" stands for California and Hawaii Sugar. In the distant days of my youth, and probably Gunrunner's also depending on his age, when my family would drive from (about) Pearl City to Haleiwa on the north shore of Oahu the would be frequent fires burning in the cane fields to remove the chaff from the stalks, which were then taken to the refinery. I believe that raw sugar crystals were shipped to California for further refinement.
I would think that the Russian elite could get cheaper Caribbean rum. Whatever leaves Hawaii, bound for Russia, and reaches Vladivostock still faces a months long voyage by horse across Siberia to even reach Moscow. Russian interested originally in Hawaii was strictly for the climate that grow food to be shipped back to Alaska.
I don't object to critiquing, that's why I post. But it's how that bugs me. I want to hear specific things, none of that facepalm nonsense. Altering Hawaiian history interested me because I lived there once upon a time. Not very long (long enough to decide tropical coast was not for me)-- and yet I never visited any of the historical sites around Kona. I use to think uphill both ways was a joke, until I tried riding a bicycle in a place that have these rises and dips all along the beach.
Ok, buy instead of build. That's a simple enough edit. But buy them with what? Even old ships weren't cheap. The part about nails I did think about earlier. I know other Polynesians were crazy about nails (I read one account of somebody trying to plant them to grow nail trees), and was trying to think what the Hawaiians would do with them. Use them for spear tips?
Anything you want to point out, do so. If it doesn't destroy the integrity of the story I'm trying to tell (and alternate history is pretty much that; fiction), then I'll correct it. Do try to remember that it being alternate history, some details will be different. I'm not terribly pleased about part 2, but I just wanted to point out that unification on Hawaii did not carry out as it did in OTL.
Ok, so what would they be interested in? Breadfruit? Pineapples? Sugar attracted so many other nations, I just thought Russia might want their own stash. Might not be as cheap, but when has that ever stopped a state from trying to protect/build their own economy?