The Ottomans move East

Rockingham

Banned
Well, I can't argue with that. Still, large rivers and mountain ranges impose a certain logic - note that Bosnia still has that same boundary - and so do Romania & Bulgaria. The Persian/Ottoman border has remained amazingly stable as well - remember Saddam Hussein's effort to change it?
True.......while the nation to the East of the border(normally Persia) has a geographical advantage(they would have broken through and set up a Iraqi puppet in the 1st GW, if not for US pressure), the nation to the west hasn't got much strtefic depth, or natural defense......only the fact the Ottomans, then the British, then the US have defended the region tooth and nail, and been vastly superior to Persia, have stopped them de-facto or de-jure annexing "Iraq"

Nonetheless, Persia has been historically conquered in moments of weakness(civil war(Alexander), or exhuastion(Arabs), so its not totally implausible. Or else, the Ottomans could establish a strong naval presence in the Indian ocean, and Caspian and use it to launch an assualt on Persia's coasts...... and perhaps impore the Afghans and Central Asian turks to attack the Persians....
 
Okay, so the POD is that Selim the Grim lives longer and manages to conquer Persia and squelch the Safavids.

The Ottomans might eventually withdraw from Persia due to overextension (I'm thinking something similar to Hungary OTL) and leave the place to a Sunni puppet or a new Central Asian dynasty (or perhaps both?), but in the meantime, we could have something interesting happen, like Hungary going Calvinist and becoming a vassal or ally of the Ottomans.
 
Okay, so the POD is that Selim the Grim lives longer and manages to conquer Persia and squelch the Safavids.

The Ottomans might eventually withdraw from Persia due to overextension (I'm thinking something similar to Hungary OTL) and leave the place to a Sunni puppet or a new Central Asian dynasty (or perhaps both?), but in the meantime, we could have something interesting happen, like Hungary going Calvinist and becoming a vassal or ally of the Ottomans.

What happens to the rest of Balkan Christians if Hungary goes Calvinist? I'm not sure there are many populations where Calvin would appeal, but you would have to expect it to spread. Transylvania could go largely Calvinist...

This could mean an Ottoman Calvinist Millet. That could lead to the spectacle of the location of a Calvinist Supreme Patriarch in Istanbul. He could have tea with the Ecumenical Patriarch, the Grand Rabbi, and the Caliph of Islam. Weird.
 
What happens to the rest of Balkan Christians if Hungary goes Calvinist? I'm not sure there are many populations where Calvin would appeal, but you would have to expect it to spread. Transylvania could go largely Calvinist...

This could mean an Ottoman Calvinist Millet. That could lead to the spectacle of the location of a Calvinist Supreme Patriarch in Istanbul. He could have tea with the Ecumenical Patriarch, the Grand Rabbi, and the Caliph of Islam. Weird.

A Hungary that's gone Calvinist is presumably being used as a buffer state against Catholic Austria? Might I put forward the idea that if we have a Calvinist Hungary, we may also have a Calvinist Bohemia. This counterweight to the Austrian Catholics may mean that the French don't need to continue the rather distasteful alliance with the Ottomans, and instead simply partner up with Eastern Europe's Twice Crowned Calvinist (the King of Hungary and Bohemia).

I think that this may actually markedly improve life down the pipeline of history for the various Slavic peoples of the Balkans. Presumably Magyar nationalism is going to be tied up not only in the language, but also in the religion (Calvinism). Thus when (if?) the Age of Nationalism begins, you may see the Magyars, though definitely racial supremacists, not try and spread Magyarism so much, because of the religious divide (in OTL 19th century language was the main measuring stick of nationality, thus the Magyars attempted to pump up their numbers by forcing the education of Magyar. Since in the TL the Magyars are a different religion, then there is another step in the Magyar national identity, one that would probably create differences before the Age of Nationalism, and make clear ethnic lines more easily seen). Plus the Calvinism could end up maintaining Magyar in a way it wasn't OTL, because it would become the language of the church, and the Calvinist bibles would all be in it.

With this religious divide added in I think you might also have much stronger feelings of Croatian separatism (perhaps even stronger than OTL?) because not only do they not speak the same language (Serbo-Croatian) as the Magyars but they practice a different religion (in OTL they shared Catholicism). Perhaps we could see stronger ethnic differences based on religion beginning in the 19th century, thus the idea of "Yugoslavia" is kept to Orthodox Slavs (Serbs, FYRoMacedonias, and Bulgarians). Transylvania and the Romanians (Rumanians?) stay Catholic. So really, you could end up with much clearer religious=ethnicity lines. I don't know if this would be a good thing or not, but it would probably change borders a lot.
 
There is a tendency to see the Balkans as a set of pre-existing countries that were bent low by the yoke of Ottoman oppression. The reality is that today's Balkan countries are modern inventions that have nothing to do with historical models, and the distinction between "Bulgarian" and "Serbian" is more or less meaningless. In the 19th c, if you started West, dialects of South Slav would gradually lead you from "Serbo-Croatian" to "Bulgarian", with no clear divider - that's why it was so easy to argue over Macedonia; it wasn't really one or the other.

But on top of that, the Muslim population of the Balkans was much larger than any other group - with Turks predominating in Bulgaria, Albanians in Macedonia and Albania, and Bosnian Muslims in Bosnia and Novi Bazar.

In 1875, the Balkans were 43% Muslim, a number that was increasing. The Eastern half of Bulgaria had a Muslim majority. There was no inevitability to all this becoming the Balkan states.

I don't include Hungary here, which is a much different case. Hungary had a continuity that Serbia, Bulgaria, et. al. didn't have.

If the Ottomans had not had to beat themselves against the combined power of the Hapsburgs and Russians for 200 years, the chances are that you would have had a much stronger empire that had not spun off into decentralized semi-independent provinces, and would have been far more able to reform itself in the 19th c. As it was, much time was expended re-centralizing the empire - which took about 50 years.

I would think a Calvinist Hungary would have to view it's Catholic neighbors as a much greater threat than the Ottomans. With a convenient border in the Danube, I would think vassaldom would lead in time to full independence.

Bohemia is an interesting situation - it seems to me that could go either way. But with regard to the Hapsburgs, not having to take on the Ottomans in the 16th c means they have resources for use elsewhere. It seems to me that trying to subdue Hungary is much more costly and less important than trying to gain control over Germany. As having to face the Ottomans was a very major factor in the Wars of Religion, you may actually see greater Hapsburg power, and thus a greater dependence of France on Ottoman alliance.

A Hungary that's gone Calvinist is presumably being used as a buffer state against Catholic Austria? Might I put forward the idea that if we have a Calvinist Hungary, we may also have a Calvinist Bohemia. This counterweight to the Austrian Catholics may mean that the French don't need to continue the rather distasteful alliance with the Ottomans, and instead simply partner up with Eastern Europe's Twice Crowned Calvinist (the King of Hungary and Bohemia).

I think that this may actually markedly improve life down the pipeline of history for the various Slavic peoples of the Balkans. Presumably Magyar nationalism is going to be tied up not only in the language, but also in the religion (Calvinism). Thus when (if?) the Age of Nationalism begins, you may see the Magyars, though definitely racial supremacists, not try and spread Magyarism so much, because of the religious divide (in OTL 19th century language was the main measuring stick of nationality, thus the Magyars attempted to pump up their numbers by forcing the education of Magyar. Since in the TL the Magyars are a different religion, then there is another step in the Magyar national identity, one that would probably create differences before the Age of Nationalism, and make clear ethnic lines more easily seen). Plus the Calvinism could end up maintaining Magyar in a way it wasn't OTL, because it would become the language of the church, and the Calvinist bibles would all be in it.

With this religious divide added in I think you might also have much stronger feelings of Croatian separatism (perhaps even stronger than OTL?) because not only do they not speak the same language (Serbo-Croatian) as the Magyars but they practice a different religion (in OTL they shared Catholicism). Perhaps we could see stronger ethnic differences based on religion beginning in the 19th century, thus the idea of "Yugoslavia" is kept to Orthodox Slavs (Serbs, FYRoMacedonias, and Bulgarians). Transylvania and the Romanians (Rumanians?) stay Catholic. So really, you could end up with much clearer religious=ethnicity lines. I don't know if this would be a good thing or not, but it would probably change borders a lot.
 
There is a tendency to see the Balkans as a set of pre-existing countries that were bent low by the yoke of Ottoman oppression. The reality is that today's Balkan countries are modern inventions that have nothing to do with historical models, and the distinction between "Bulgarian" and "Serbian" is more or less meaningless. In the 19th c, if you started West, dialects of South Slav would gradually lead you from "Serbo-Croatian" to "Bulgarian", with no clear divider - that's why it was so easy to argue over Macedonia; it wasn't really one or the other.

But on top of that, the Muslim population of the Balkans was much larger than any other group - with Turks predominating in Bulgaria, Albanians in Macedonia and Albania, and Bosnian Muslims in Bosnia and Novi Bazar.

In 1875, the Balkans were 43% Muslim, a number that was increasing. The Eastern half of Bulgaria had a Muslim majority. There was no inevitability to all this becoming the Balkan states.

If the Ottomans had not had to beat themselves against the combined power of the Hapsburgs and Russians for 200 years, the chances are that you would have had a much stronger empire that had not spun off into decentralized semi-independent provinces, and would have been far more able to reform itself in the 19th c. As it was, much time was expended re-centralizing the empire - which took about 50 years.

Alright, so we have a Calvinist Hungary for sure that is a vassal/ally of the Ottoman Sultan. Calvinist Hungary may also include Calvinist Bohemia, since those mountains make such a nice border.

The stuff about the numbers of Muslims, I wasn't really aware the numbers were that high. That being said, I believe that there are examples of Muslims revolting against the Ottomans, despite the shared religion (though this may have just been the Albanians, and the Empire may have been in such a bad spot that those examples have no bearing on the scenario presented above).

So you have a more centrally controlled Ottoman Empire. Does this centralized control butterfly away the rising (Chrisitian Slavic and Muslim Turkish) national consciousness? And if so what is this national consciousness replaced by, a more broad-based "Ottomanism"? I think that even if you manage to avoid a replay of the bloody retreat of the Ottomans in the Balkans, then what you will end up with is provoking those rebellions as the Anatolian Turks begin to feel their own nationalist oats. This may mean that those borders are much different (as indeed I believe they would be) but I think that in the end the outcome may have been inevitable. The kind of broad-based empires like the Hapsburg and the Ottomans, based on something other than ethnic nationalism, were outdated and unable to compete on an emotional level with the appeal of ethnic nationalism.

If you have this longer period of Ottoman rule I think that you could end up developing more of a united front among the Ottoman's subjects in the Balkans. Thus the differences between Bulgarian and Serbo-Croatian are set aside by nationalist intellectuals who define themselves more by their Orthodox Slavic backgrounds and anti-Turkishness than with a particular brand of Slavic nationalism. With Calvinst Hungary, and Catholic Croatia and Romania, the Slavs see themselves as the fourth group, the Yugoslavs. With the united factors of religion and language (Bulgarian and Serbo-Croatian are reconciled in a stronger Ottoman Empire, since the countries aren't able to easily break free and thus start developing hard and fast political loyalty to specific states) Yugoslav actually means something more than Greater Serbia, it is the name of the Orthodox Slavic nationalism.

I don't include Hungary here, which is a much different case. Hungary had a continuity that Serbia, Bulgaria, et. al. didn't have.

I would think a Calvinist Hungary would have to view it's Catholic neighbors as a much greater threat than the Ottomans. With a convenient border in the Danube, I would think vassaldom would lead in time to full independence.

Bohemia is an interesting situation - it seems to me that could go either way. But with regard to the Hapsburgs, not having to take on the Ottomans in the 16th c means they have resources for use elsewhere. It seems to me that trying to subdue Hungary is much more costly and less important than trying to gain control over Germany. As having to face the Ottomans was a very major factor in the Wars of Religion, you may actually see greater Hapsburg power, and thus a greater dependence of France on Ottoman alliance.

I think that if your postulating a Calvinist Hungary, you would significantly change the course of religious history in Europe. Even if you beat Protestantism in Germany, you haven't sealed Hapsburg dominance over Germany. Indeed, the counter-reformation gave the power of state-control over the church to much the same degree that the protestant princes had. Additionally, even if the Hapsburg's do take a direct interest and directly intervene in the French Wars of Religion, I think that at base you have fundamentally conflicting national interests between the French and the Hapsburg. I would use the example of the Chinese and Russians. They were both communists, but they were first Russians or Chinese and second communists and that's why they nearly went to declared in the late 60's. By the same token, the French Catholics were French first and would not (indeed in OTL did not) hesitate to use whatever means were at their disposal in order to achieve their national interests (which traditionally were dominance in Northern Italy and control of the left bank of the Rhine).

On the subject of Bohemia. I think that the country didn't want to be ruled by the Hapsburg, and if Hungary is able to successfully toss off the Hapsburg yoke, then that king would probably be intelligent enough to get Bohemia to as well. Bohemia had a demonstrated desire to be independent of the Hapsburg and foreign princes more generally, and I think that an Ottoman-backed Calvinist Hungary is about the most independent that one could get at that point. The fact that OTL much of Bohemia went Protestant will really help the plausibility factor. Additionally, control of Bohemia will give the Hungarian King something of an ace in the hole against the Ottomans, since he now has control over a territory that the Ottomans were not able to OTL get to. Should he (or Hungary) end up waging wars against the Ottomans, then Prague will be an important piece of the strategy.
 
All good thoughts. There were Muslim revolts in the Ottoman Empire, usually against reforms or increased taxes, not the Empire in itself; that was also behind all the Christian revolts too, BTW.

If you think about it, the Serbs revolted against local Janissaries on behalf of the Sultan, Bosnia over a bad harvest and taxes, the Albanians because the Treaty of Berlin mandated Albanian lands go to Montenegro, and Bulgaria did absolutely nothing whatsoever to "liberate" itself, and Bulgarian nationalism, such as it was, was resistance to Greek domination of the Orthodox millet.

Only Greece revolted for "higher" reasons, and that was an attempt to reconstitute the Byzantine Empire - and all these needed large-scale external support to succeed.

It's not just that the number of Muslims were high, but where they were high - along the Danube and in Bosnia, plus Albania and Epirus. The Christian areas were in the middle of the peninsula, and just north of Greece. I have a population map of the empire c. 1875, broken down by subprovince - I'll have to post it.

If the empire were stronger, would other powers be able to interfere so much? Hungary already has a lot of Slavs in it - isn't it in her best interests NOT to have any Slavic statelets on its borders? Will a Hungary-free Hapsburg state become much more Germany-focused?

Prior to the Treaty of Berlin, "nationalism" in the Western mind was limited - in the sense that only a handful of nations were considered large enough to merit nation states... it was that treaty that was the triumph of the national model vs. the dynastic. Would more stable Ottoman and Hapsburg states make things move in a different direction? Nationalism today has largely run its course - Islamism is largely a reaction against it, as is the EU. If these empires had survived longer could Universalism gained a second wind?

In the case of the Ottomans, the empire isn't just the Balkans. Add in the rest of it and Bulgarians, for instance, are a small minority in a little corner of a large state. Are the more likely to leave a powerful state than say, the Basques?

Hungary-Bohemia is certainly an interesting idea, and they were after all just recently dynastically related...

But this state is going to include an awful lot of Slavs, including all the Czechs and Slovaks, and it's position is going to keep it really busy in Germany, with the Hapsburgs, the Poles, and eventually Russia. I'm not really seeing where their interests collide with the Ottomans'.

What do you think would happen to Croatia? Does it remain with Hungary?
 

Rockingham

Banned
All good thoughts. There were Muslim revolts in the Ottoman Empire, usually against reforms or increased taxes, not the Empire in itself; that was also behind all the Christian revolts too, BTW.

If you think about it, the Serbs revolted against local Janissaries on behalf of the Sultan, Bosnia over a bad harvest and taxes, the Albanians because the Treaty of Berlin mandated Albanian lands go to Montenegro, and Bulgaria did absolutely nothing whatsoever to "liberate" itself, and Bulgarian nationalism, such as it was, was resistance to Greek domination of the Orthodox millet.

Only Greece revolted for "higher" reasons, and that was an attempt to reconstitute the Byzantine Empire - and all these needed large-scale external support to succeed.

It's not just that the number of Muslims were high, but where they were high - along the Danube and in Bosnia, plus Albania and Epirus. The Christian areas were in the middle of the peninsula, and just north of Greece. I have a population map of the empire c. 1875, broken down by subprovince - I'll have to post it.

If the empire were stronger, would other powers be able to interfere so much? Hungary already has a lot of Slavs in it - isn't it in her best interests NOT to have any Slavic statelets on its borders? Will a Hungary-free Hapsburg state become much more Germany-focused?

Prior to the Treaty of Berlin, "nationalism" in the Western mind was limited - in the sense that only a handful of nations were considered large enough to merit nation states... it was that treaty that was the triumph of the national model vs. the dynastic. Would more stable Ottoman and Hapsburg states make things move in a different direction? Nationalism today has largely run its course - Islamism is largely a reaction against it, as is the EU. If these empires had survived longer could Universalism gained a second wind?

In the case of the Ottomans, the empire isn't just the Balkans. Add in the rest of it and Bulgarians, for instance, are a small minority in a little corner of a large state. Are the more likely to leave a powerful state than say, the Basques?

Hungary-Bohemia is certainly an interesting idea, and they were after all just recently dynastically related...

But this state is going to include an awful lot of Slavs, including all the Czechs and Slovaks, and it's position is going to keep it really busy in Germany, with the Hapsburgs, the Poles, and eventually Russia. I'm not really seeing where their interests collide with the Ottomans'.

What do you think would happen to Croatia? Does it remain with Hungary?
Best case scenario for the Ottomans....Hungary-Bohemia is estbalished as a Calvinist state, while the Habsburgs take Catholic Croatia. Beacause then, Hungary and the Habsburgs are ireconcilable.
 
Best case scenario for the Ottomans....Hungary-Bohemia is estbalished as a Calvinist state, while the Habsburgs take Catholic Croatia. Beacause then, Hungary and the Habsburgs are ireconcilable.

It probably would make the alliance between the French and the Ottomans not being dissolved, since the Habsburgs then would still have a border with the Ottomans (not so big, but still important). But now it would be a tripple alliance: France, Ottomans and Hungary (and as France have its own problems with Calvinists, being allied to a strong Calvinist kingdom could have interesting effects).
 
A Protestant union of Bohemia and Hungary. That would be interesting.

Let's move back East for a moment. How long can the Ottomans hold onto Persia if Selim conquers it and extinguishes the Safavids? And when the Ottomans withdraw, who will rule after them?
 

Glen

Moderator
A Protestant union of Bohemia and Hungary. That would be interesting.

Indeed.

Let's move back East for a moment. How long can the Ottomans hold onto Persia if Selim conquers it and extinguishes the Safavids? And when the Ottomans withdraw, who will rule after them?

IF the Ottomans take Persia, what makes you think they wouldn't be able to hold it and another would rule thereafter?
 
All good thoughts. There were Muslim revolts in the Ottoman Empire, usually against reforms or increased taxes, not the Empire in itself; that was also behind all the Christian revolts too, BTW.

If you think about it, the Serbs revolted against local Janissaries on behalf of the Sultan, Bosnia over a bad harvest and taxes, the Albanians because the Treaty of Berlin mandated Albanian lands go to Montenegro, and Bulgaria did absolutely nothing whatsoever to "liberate" itself, and Bulgarian nationalism, such as it was, was resistance to Greek domination of the Orthodox millet.

I don't disagree that in general the level of support for a particular nationalism wasn't all that high. Most of the revolts were not based on nationalist reasons, they were much more about local problems. Also, the differences between the various Orthodox Slavs were largely creations of state power structures, not actual differences between various groups per se.

That being said, I think that if you have a greater amount of central Ottoman control, and thus I would think greater economic development of the Balkans, then you are going to create a class of Orthodox Slav intellectuals. These intellectuals are going to take their cues from Western Europe, where nationalism has become the organizing principle of the state (thus nation-state). This rise of nationalist intellectuals is going to make these people aware of the population differences, and the problems that they would face in a revolt. This, plus the already present religious-ethnic differences, I think, would push these Slavic intellectuals to want to reconcile Serbo-Croatian and Bulgarian, and push towards the creation of a single Yugoslav identity. This identity, rooted in Orthodox slavism, would find an easy sponsor in the Russian Empire, and I think that those intellectuals would also give the Yugoslavic identity traction in the West. The reconciliation of Bulgarian and Serbo-Croatian, and thus the linking of a Yugoslavic identity to a common language, the basic requirement in Western Europe for nationalism.

Only Greece revolted for "higher" reasons, and that was an attempt to reconstitute the Byzantine Empire - and all these needed large-scale external support to succeed.

It's not just that the number of Muslims were high, but where they were high - along the Danube and in Bosnia, plus Albania and Epirus. The Christian areas were in the middle of the peninsula, and just north of Greece. I have a population map of the empire c. 1875, broken down by subprovince - I'll have to post it.

As OTL history proved, committed campaigns of ethnic cleansing can change the ethnic makeup of regions.

If the empire were stronger, would other powers be able to interfere so much? Hungary already has a lot of Slavs in it - isn't it in her best interests NOT to have any Slavic statelets on its borders? Will a Hungary-free Hapsburg state become much more Germany-focused?

Hungary and Austria I wouldn't expect to do much in the way of expanding into the Balkans. Hungary may want to extend her border directly east, along the Danube River, to gain control of the mouth of the Danube. The power that I think would have the most interest in the Balkans would be the Russians. If the development of Slavic nationalism happens as I have it above then I think the Russians would be outrageously happy to support the Yugoslav's nationalist aspirations.

Prior to the Treaty of Berlin, "nationalism" in the Western mind was limited - in the sense that only a handful of nations were considered large enough to merit nation states... it was that treaty that was the triumph of the national model vs. the dynastic. Would more stable Ottoman and Hapsburg states make things move in a different direction? Nationalism today has largely run its course - Islamism is largely a reaction against it, as is the EU. If these empires had survived longer could Universalism gained a second wind?

I don't think so. The Ottomans may have had more central control and better armed forces, but the Russians are a large and motivated country. If they face stronger resistance from the Ottomans, this could end up spurring Russian reforms that could end up hurting the Ottomans rather badly.

I really don't believe that Universal Empires were in the cards any longer. That doesn't mean however that the Ottoman Empire can't remain a power, and maintain its Imperial borders. If you have a transition to Turkish nationalism within the Ottoman Empire, then you can have Anatolia as the Turkish "metropolitan" and the rest of the Empire as the colonial territory. If you are able to create a plastic enough Turkish identity that embraces the Balkan Muslims (something that I think should be doable) then you can definitely maintain the Empire. In Arabia, there was little nationalist feelings, even during WWI. I would say that anti-colonialism finally gave Arab nationalism its big kick in the pants. With Muslim identifying as Turks in the Balkans, and the rest of the Empire quiet due to lack of nationalist evolution (though perhaps with the increase in central control you also create greater Arab national feeling ala the situation that I have developing in the Balkans) then you could have an enduring Ottoman (Turkish) Empire

In the case of the Ottomans, the empire isn't just the Balkans. Add in the rest of it and Bulgarians, for instance, are a small minority in a little corner of a large state. Are the more likely to leave a powerful state than say, the Basques?

Because of the potential to make common cause with other Orthodox Slavs, indeed I would argue the imperitive that that they make common cause with the other slavs, the Bulgarians as such would not be acting alone. They would be acting as a part of a larger national community, the Yugoslavs, a national community that the Basques never had access to.

Hungary-Bohemia is certainly an interesting idea, and they were after all just recently dynastically related...

But this state is going to include an awful lot of Slavs, including all the Czechs and Slovaks, and it's position is going to keep it really busy in Germany, with the Hapsburgs, the Poles, and eventually Russia. I'm not really seeing where their interests collide with the Ottomans'.

I think that with the Calvinist base of the monarchy, and the shared threats from both Germany and the Ottoman Empire, would probably create some kind of shared national identity, though I'm not really sure. You could end up with a sort of situation like you have with the Austrian and Magyars in the latter part of the 19th century, where the Czechs and Magyars need each other in order to maintain the kind of influence they feel they need. I would throw in a long-lived dynasty that can command the respect and legitimacy necessary to maintain this dual monarchy.

With respect to the Austrian Hapsburgs, I don't really want to hazard a guess. I would say that there are going to be some seriously good reasons for the Hapsburgs to be able to establish more control over Germany, and just as many for them to fail to do so.

I think that Poland would probably end up surviving, maybe with a Hapsburg on the throne (hey if they don't get Bohemia and Hungary, they're going to need to gain some more thrones).

What do you think would happen to Croatia? Does it remain with Hungary?

That's tough. I think that the Croatians would probably revolt against the Hungarians and get Austrian protection. The shared threats of Hungary and the Ottomans, combined with the shared Catholicism, should keep Croatia a loyal part of the Hapsburg Empire (as it was OTL).
 
IF the Ottomans take Persia, what makes you think they wouldn't be able to hold it and another would rule thereafter?

They weren't able to hold onto Hungary in the long term and Hungary was MUCH closer to Constantinople.

Persia is just too big and too far away, plus the geography is unfavorable (the Zagros mountains).
 

Rockingham

Banned
Sorry for another long post...;)

Okay, so the POD is that Selim the Grim lives longer and manages to conquer Persia and squelch the Safavids.

The Ottomans might eventually withdraw from Persia due to overextension (I'm thinking something similar to Hungary OTL) and leave the place to a Sunni puppet or a new Central Asian dynasty (or perhaps both?), but in the meantime, we could have something interesting happen, like Hungary going Calvinist and becoming a vassal or ally of the Ottomans.
Not neccesarily... the prefferable POD would be the Hungarian king and most of the court not getting killed off in a single battle....though with a misfortune like that, you have to wonder if their wasn't some outside factor causing it(just turning into a 16th century conspiracy nut, sorry:p). Thus a unified Hungary-Bohemia remains, but loses Belgrade and perhaps Banat to the Ottomans. They are "pressured" to become Calvinist, however, and so Croatia rebels... the Habsburgs gain Croatia but acknowledge that they are forbidden to inherit any other part of the St. Stephen throne.....

Without a real European conquest, Sulieman devotes Ottoman forces to the East instead(and perhaps, due to butterflies, Persia "collapses".... conquering Persia(though perhaps partitioning it between the Empire proper, a few newly established vassal-states(ala Transylvania), and the semi-tribal states.....

He or a succesor also gain control of the territory needed to build and adequately defend a Von-Dolga canal..... and ideally build a Suez canal.


Thus, the Ottomans would become totally unstopable in the East... or almost so[drool];)
Let's move back East for a moment. How long can the Ottomans hold onto Persia if Selim conquers it and extinguishes the Safavids? And when the Ottomans withdraw, who will rule after them?
I'm thinking the area would be further partitioned between formal vassals, tigthly held vassals, and direct territory.

IF the Ottomans take Persia, what makes you think they wouldn't be able to hold it and another would rule thereafter?
Nothing lasts forever..unless you meant until modern day?

1)I don't disagree that in general the level of support for a particular nationalism wasn't all that high. Most of the revolts were not based on nationalist reasons, they were much more about local problems. Also, the differences between the various Orthodox Slavs were largely creations of state power structures, not actual differences between various groups per se.

2)I think that Poland would probably end up surviving, maybe with a Hapsburg on the throne (hey if they don't get Bohemia and Hungary, they're going to need to gain some more thrones).
1)How is that iffernet to any natioanlism? As much as it maintains otherwise, nationalism is (almost always) the tool of some state/business/other emotionless structure, not the other way round.

2)And just why is it neccesrary for the Habsburgs to become uber-large?
 
1) Without a real European conquest, Sulieman devotes Ottoman forces to the East instead(and perhaps, due to butterflies, Persia "collapses".... conquering Persia(though perhaps partitioning it between the Empire proper, a few newly established vassal-states(ala Transylvania), and the semi-tribal states.....

2) He or a succesor also gain control of the territory needed to build and adequately defend a Von-Dolga canal..... and ideally build a Suez canal.


3) Thus, the Ottomans would become totally unstopable in the East... or almost so[drool];)

4) I'm thinking the area would be further partitioned between formal vassals, tigthly held vassals, and direct territory.


5) Nothing lasts forever..unless you meant until modern day?

6)And just why is it neccesrary for the Habsburgs to become uber-large?

1) Azerbaijan, Kuzestan, and Iranian part of Kurdistan will be firmly Ottoman. Maybe some more bit extra Persian lands under direct rule, but I suppose it wouldn't be to much...

2) Don-Volga plan.... :D:cool: has been always attracted since the first time I heard it. :):cool: I suggest butterflying Mr. Peter the Russian (or some possible equivalent(s)) would help ? ;):p:D;):cool:

3) Drooling too....:D But I suppose that Ottoman expansion to the further east would may not be as rapid as we hope though.... :( Not to mention that most likely the Ottomans wouldn't going to do that by them self.

Now, I'm curious about how would be of the Mughals. The Safavids have some important roles in Mughal history. What would be of the Mughals without the Safavids ?

4) The regions I've mentioned in number one will surely be included within the direct rule chamber.

5) Honestly, some pouring of luck will be needed. But hey, if you make the TL about it, as long as you wouldn't break the law of plausibility, your the master ! ;)

6) He is speculating that now an alliance between the the heretics (Calvinist Hungary) and the infidels (Muslim Ottomans) will might going to appear as great threat to the Catholic (part of) Christendom to some people. So maybe Poland and the Habsburg would might need to gang up against them. Maybe this will lead to a Poland to be a part of the Habsburg Land or to be under a king from Habsburg family. The next question, however, is how would the Poles going to take this ?
 
Transylvania and the Romanians (Rumanians?) stay Catholic.

With Calvinst Hungary, and Catholic Croatia and Romania, the Slavs see themselves as the fourth group, the Yugoslavs.

With an "o". But I don't see why you'd think we're Catholic.

On the subject of Bohemia. I think that the country didn't want to be ruled by the Hapsburg, and if Hungary is able to successfully toss off the Hapsburg yoke, then that king would probably be intelligent enough to get Bohemia to as well. Bohemia had a demonstrated desire to be independent of the Hapsburg and foreign princes more generally, and I think that an Ottoman-backed Calvinist Hungary is about the most independent that one could get at that point.

What are you talking about? We're talking about a scenario where the King of Hungary and Bohemia isn't killed at Mohacs. The 2 countries would never have experienced the "Hapsburg yoke".
 
1) Azerbaijan, Kuzestan, and Iranian part of Kurdistan will be firmly Ottoman. Maybe some more bit extra Persian lands under direct rule, but I suppose it wouldn't be to much...

2) Don-Volga plan.... :D:cool: has been always attracted since the first time I heard it. :):cool: I suggest butterflying Mr. Peter the Russian (or some possible equivalent(s)) would help ? ;):p:D;):cool:

It actually was started in the late 16th century (1568 or 9 if I recall), but the Crimean Khanate was unsupportive and the Ottoman Empire under the rule of the Sot.

3) Drooling too....:D But I suppose that Ottoman expansion to the further east would may not be as rapid as we hope though.... :( Not to mention that most likely the Ottomans wouldn't going to do that by them self.

Now, I'm curious about how would be of the Mughals. The Safavids have some important roles in Mughal history. What would be of the Mughals without the Safavids ?

4) The regions I've mentioned in number one will surely be included within the direct rule chamber.

5) Honestly, some pouring of luck will be needed. But hey, if you make the TL about it, as long as you wouldn't break the law of plausibility, your the master ! ;)

Quite. Mughals would be interesting. No Peacock Throne for starters?

6) He is speculating that now an alliance between the the heretics (Calvinist Hungary) and the infidels (Muslim Ottomans) will might going to appear as great threat to the Catholic (part of) Christendom to some people. So maybe Poland and the Habsburg would might need to gang up against them. Maybe this will lead to a Poland to be a part of the Habsburg Land or to be under a king from Habsburg family. The next question, however, is how would the Poles going to take this ?

I was thinking that Poland would find itself pressured by the hungarian-ottoman alliance and would seek Hapsburg help. This help would end up getting elected King, and once you have a Hapsburg on that throne, the family will be loath to give it up.
 
1) Quite. Mughals would be interesting. No Peacock Throne for starters?



2) I was thinking that Poland would find itself pressured by the hungarian-ottoman alliance and would seek Hapsburg help. This help would end up getting elected King, and once you have a Hapsburg on that throne, the family will be loath to give it up.


1) Wasn't it the Persians who took it from the Mughals ? :confused:

2) I agree that Poland-Habsburg alliance is a likely result if an Ottoman Calvinist vassal of Hungary would emerge. Still though, I'd say that a Habsburg Poland isn't inevitable, though certainly there will be the chance for that. If that were to happen anyway, that doesn't mean that the relationship between the Habsburgs and Poland couldn't be severed afterwards. Even it's not impossible if this would lead us to see that Poland will eventually ally themselves with the Ottoman Empire and Hungary to fight the Habsburgs !
 
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Rockingham

Banned
I agree that Poland-Habsburg alliance is a likely result if an Ottoman Calvinist vassal of Hungary would emerge. Still though, I'd say that a Habsburg Poland isn't inevitable, though certainly there will be the chance for that. If that were to happen anyway, that doesn't mean that the relationship between the Habsburgs and Poland couldn't be severed afterwards. Even it's not impossible if this would lead us to see that Poland will eventually ally themselves with the Ottoman Empire and Hungary to fight the Habsburgs !
This seems unlikely....for the simple reason that, no matter how frustrating the power of the Hapsburgs may be to each state individually, they are an integral part of the balance of power...in any case, Hapsburg destruction at the hands of the Franco-Ottoman-Polish-Hungarian alliance would be disproportiantely beneficial to the the Ottomans and Hungarians.......who would merely replace the Spanish and "Austrians" respectively as threats to French interests.
 
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