The ottoman empire we knew it should have happenned

One issue with Ottoman modernization was that the center of Ottoman power was in the Balkans. The religious differences between Christians and Muslims in the Balkans if and when a variation of nationalism starts to emerge will still be a convenient pretext for the enemies of the empire to use against it. Tanzimat was quite successful IOTL and the Ottomans *did* survive past WWI, where the Habsburgs, Romanovs, and Hohenzollerns did not.

I think an interesting question is whether or not the Ottomans could have developed a system whereby Ottomanism takes precedence over Sunnism as the state identity, enabling the state to run around the Islamists *and* the Christianists who'd be against the idea. Effectively something on the line of modern-day US multi-culturalism. It wouldn't have to be perfect, but then neither is the US version by any means.

Edit-To clarify I mean if they did this before the creation of Greece or Bulgaria.
 
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I think an interesting question is whether or not the Ottomans could have developed a system whereby Ottomanism takes precedence over Sunnism as the state identity, enabling the state to run around the Islamists *and* the Christianists who'd be against the idea. Effectively something on the line of modern-day US multi-culturalism. It wouldn't have to be perfect, but then neither is the US version by any means.

Well why couldn't they ? Christians' rights were constitutionally elevated to equality with muslims by OTL reforms anyway, not to mention that jizya was abolished etc. Such development was on the road IOTL.
 
Well why couldn't they ? Christians' rights were constitutionally elevated to equality with muslims by OTL reforms anyway, not to mention that jizya was abolished etc. Such development was on the road IOTL.

It's a question of whether or not they could do that prior to the use of nationalism as a pretext to start carving Greeces and Bulgarias out of the Ottoman Empire.
 
It's a question of whether or not they could do that prior to the use of nationalism as a pretext to start carving Greeces and Bulgarias out of the Ottoman Empire.

Well you didn't mention it above though....

Now it makes me wonder as well. I'm still thinking about what Pasha ever said, that the reforms could've started 40 years earlier under Selim had he done it better against the Janissaries. Maybe that could do it....
 
Well you didn't mention it above though....

Now it makes me wonder as well. I'm still thinking about what Pasha ever said, that the reforms could've started 40 years earlier under Selim had he done it better against the Janissaries. Maybe that could do it....

You're right and I edited that post to clarify that.

The consequences of an Ottoman Balkans without the existence of a separate Greece or Bulgaria will be quite interesting. Especially if Selim III ends up replacing the Janissaries with a more modern-style army. An Ottoman Empire with much of its economic base intact would be a rather different military proposition than the one in the later 19th Century IOTL.

On the other hand, if the Ottomans are a stronger multi-ethnic empire, that might have butterflies for the Imperial Russian and Austrian regimes, too.
 

Don Grey

Banned
My point is that your POD is stupid, he died because he died, saying what if he lived longer is just as saying what if he lived 150 years, it's just as likely.

I have a more likely point, what if Mehmed dies in the Night Attack in 1462, what then? My POD it a lot more likely than yours.

This is a alternate history board. Russialsailor talked about expantion so i gave a "what if" . Extanding some ones life from 49 to 59 shouldnt be that hard. Then i explained how it would be done but unfortunatly i was under the impression i was speaking to a human being not a jackass. If you dont like the pod then you dont like it there is no reason to be rude unless you have asperger's sydrome then i apologies and im giving you a link at the bottom for a site that states signs of aspergers syndrome.

http://www.aspergerssociety.org/indexsymptomsu.htm?gclid=CMGM-qnmr6QCFYr92AodBE_Ixw
 
This is a alternate history board. Russialsailor talked about expantion so i gave a "what if" . Extanding some ones life from 49 to 59 shouldnt be that hard. Then i explained how it would be done but unfortunatly i was under the impression i was speaking to a human being not a jackass. If you dont like the pod then you dont like it there is no reason to be rude unless you have asperger's sydrome then i apologies and im giving you a link at the bottom for a site that states signs of aspergers syndrome.

http://www.aspergerssociety.org/indexsymptomsu.htm?gclid=CMGM-qnmr6QCFYr92AodBE_Ixw

Why thank you, I'll be sure to send them an email right away, thank god there's such an astute psychologist on this forum, I'd have lived my life undiagnosed if it wasn't for you. Such a lifesaver.
 

Don Grey

Banned
Why thank you, I'll be sure to send them an email right away, thank god there's such an astute psychologist on this forum, I'd have lived my life undiagnosed if it wasn't for you. Such a lifesaver.

No problam i like helping people:)
 
One issue with Ottoman modernization was that the center of Ottoman power was in the Balkans. The religious differences between Christians and Muslims in the Balkans if and when a variation of nationalism starts to emerge will still be a convenient pretext for the enemies of the empire to use against it. Tanzimat was quite successful IOTL and the Ottomans *did* survive past WWI, where the Habsburgs, Romanovs, and Hohenzollerns did not.

I think an interesting question is whether or not the Ottomans could have developed a system whereby Ottomanism takes precedence over Sunnism as the state identity, enabling the state to run around the Islamists *and* the Christianists who'd be against the idea. Effectively something on the line of modern-day US multi-culturalism. It wouldn't have to be perfect, but then neither is the US version by any means.

Edit-To clarify I mean if they did this before the creation of Greece or Bulgaria.

to this I think that the ottoman empire at some point needs to raise non muslim statues to first class in order for the ottomans to increase the enlightenment neccessary to fight other powers.
 
to this I think that the ottoman empire at some point needs to raise non muslim statues to first class in order for the ottomans to increase the enlightenment neccessary to fight other powers.

The empire's problem, honestly, was less of their treatment of non-muslim subject as much as being in a condition that gives Europeans powers the chance to intervene for whatever reason they could find due to economic problems and military vulnerability. Giving non muslims equality with muslims will be helpful and must be done eventually but even without it if the Ottomans could have stomped discontent non-muslim unrest before it's late or just simply proving themselves to be to strong for Europeans to just bully them and get out without bloody noses, honestly they would be more or less just fine.
 
One issue with Ottoman modernization was that the center of Ottoman power was in the Balkans. The religious differences between Christians and Muslims in the Balkans if and when a variation of nationalism starts to emerge will still be a convenient pretext for the enemies of the empire to use against it. Tanzimat was quite successful IOTL and the Ottomans *did* survive past WWI, where the Habsburgs, Romanovs, and Hohenzollerns did not.

I think an interesting question is whether or not the Ottomans could have developed a system whereby Ottomanism takes precedence over Sunnism as the state identity, enabling the state to run around the Islamists *and* the Christianists who'd be against the idea. Effectively something on the line of modern-day US multi-culturalism. It wouldn't have to be perfect, but then neither is the US version by any means.

Edit-To clarify I mean if they did this before the creation of Greece or Bulgaria.

If that's what needs to happen I think we need a sunnits Sultan who realises the benifets of uninhibited religious freedom I mean by far the ottomans were one of the most tolerant european islamic nations but I think what needs to happen is since the industrialization will happen in the balkans you need a more loyal balkans.
 
If that's what needs to happen I think we need a sunnits Sultan who realises the benifets of uninhibited religious freedom I mean by far the ottomans were one of the most tolerant european islamic nations but I think what needs to happen is since the industrialization will happen in the balkans you need a more loyal balkans.

Maybe by emphasizing a secular Ottoman identity instead of an Islamic one for starters
 
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