The Other Hapsburg Heiress

So a woefully overlooked character in history (and althistory) is the younger sister of the famed Maria Theresia, Maria Anna Eleonora Wilhelmina of Austria (1718-1744). Overlooked in marriage too, since she was always part of a package deal in the sense of she would marry a younger brother of whoever married her sister.

Finally, she died in childbed with her first and only child (who also died). What might the results have been if she hadn't died so young (leaving her husband a disconsolate widower until his own death 36 years later) and become mother to a brood of children much like her sister. Would these kids also be Hapsburg archdukes or mere princes of Lorraine? What might the future of the Austrian Netherlands look like with at least part of the ruling family in permanent residence?

Please discuss
 
AFAIK it never was intended that archduchess Maria Anna and prince Charles Alexander (IIRC the claim from the house of Lorraine on Lorraine & Bar was passed to him, after the renounciation of Francis Stephan).
Apparently this was a marriage of love, since IIRC she was seen as a potential match for (Bourbon) duke Philip of Parma; also it wasn't the most prestigious match.

I think that she and Charles Alexander would continue the house of Lorraine. It also would be interesting to have them as a dynasty permanently residing in the Austrian Netherlands and becoming native.
 
I was thinking about them establishing a house of Lorraine as opposed to the house of Hapsburg-Lorraine. And also, if Stanislaw Leszxzynski dies on schedule in 1766, might the Caroline Lorraines fight to have Lorraine-Alsace restored to them rather than the senior branch in Vienna and Florence?
 
I don't think that they will oppose their Habsburg-Lorraine cousins. Also I think you mean, Lorraine & Bar. Even though in
medieval times, their ancestral house of Chatenois was also known as the house of Alsace. The house of Lorraine at this time were from the Vaudemont branch.

However I do agree, that they will be a likely candidate to reclaim Lorraine. Though with some territorial exchanges, France might keep Lorraine, Austria compensates their Lorraine cousins with the Southern Netherlands, and Austria gets Silesia or another major gain in the German part of the HRE or the Italian peninsula.
 
And Fritz (and/or the Fürstenbund) is not gonna sit back and let that happen. Look how well he/they took the proposed swap of Bavaria for the Southern Netherlands OTL.
 
You were talking about the Caroline branch of the house of Lorraine retaking Lorraine with the help of Austria from France, which IMHO is even more unlikely than, if Austria would retake Silesia from Prussia. In case of the latter having Austria detach the Southern Netherlands might happen, as a kind of required compensation.

Anyway IMHO getting Lorraine back, for either the house of Habsburg-Lorraine or the Caroline house of Lorraine probably won't happen. Yet the Caroline house of Lorraine also are good contenders to be placed on a throne. Another option could be, that the duchy of Teschen is granted to them, at least temporarily (they would lose it, when regaining Lorraine or in any Southern Netherlands deal).
 
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You know, given what was historically called Lorraine, it seems possible that the Southern Netherlands under these circumstances could come to be called the "Kingdom of Lorraine". Such an independent state regardless of nomenclarure, however, produces enormous butterflies by effectively creating Belgium a century early.
 
You know, given what was historically called Lorraine, it seems possible that the Southern Netherlands under these circumstances could come to be called the "Kingdom of Lorraine". Such an independent state regardless of nomenclarure, however, produces enormous butterflies by effectively creating Belgium a century early.

IDK the French might take issue with that - esp. since Upper Lorraine has been absorbed into France. In fact they might object to several names - Lorraine, Lotharingia, Burgundy - just as the Dutch would have to calling it Batavia (the Latin name for the entire Netherlands).

AFAIR the reason for the style "king of the Belgians" actually has to do with that last point. Rex Bataviensis - king of Batavia - was taken by most to mean the Northern Netherlands after the Napoleonic wars; so when the Belgians offered the crown they offered it as a translation of "Rex Belgicae" - king of the Belgians/roi des Belgiens/koning van België.

PS: Excuse my linguistic terms if they're not spot on right. I'm quoting from memory and therefore I might have it assbackwards.:eek:
 
@ JonasResende: not quite, Belgica was the Latin term for the entire Netherlands, now more commonly known as the Low Countries. The difference between king of the Netherlands and king of the Belgians, also denotes that the Belgian monarchy is based on the populace. Also the Dutch monarchy dates from the post Napoleonic restoration era, though it ironically was new.
 
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OK WHY are we assuming that the Southern Netherlands will be broke off to create a new country? Realistically the House of Lorraine will just be yet another Branch of the Habsburg Dynasty. At most they will serve as Governors, maybe over several generations, but not much else. The Southern Netherlands was to valuable as a bargaining chip for Vienna to waste on their cousins. and as to Lorraine proper NO WAY is France gonna give the Duchy to a close relative of the Holy Roman Emperor. It would totally defeat the purpose of gaining it in the first place. But I will say that if the House of Lorraine continues and "goes native" then later down the road if/when there's a Belgian Revolution, then the "current" Head of the Lorraine Branch will probably be chosen as King.
 
OK WHY are we assuming that the Southern Netherlands will be broke off to create a new country? Realistically the House of Lorraine will just be yet another Branch of the Habsburg Dynasty. At most they will serve as Governors, maybe over several generations, but not much else. The Southern Netherlands was to valuable as a bargaining chip for Vienna to waste on their cousins. and as to Lorraine proper NO WAY is France gonna give the Duchy to a close relative of the Holy Roman Emperor. It would totally defeat the purpose of gaining it in the first place. But I will say that if the House of Lorraine continues and "goes native" then later down the road if/when there's a Belgian Revolution, then the "current" Head of the Lorraine Branch will probably be chosen as King.

The only IMHO somewhat plausible scenario for a Lorraine Southern Netherlands would be a victorious Austria (with the right allies) against both France and Prussia. Then Austria could seize Prussia and something else (Parma?), but instead of granting their Lorraine cousins their dynastic duchies back, they could be granted the Southern Netherlands in compensation; since they want to spare France a bit (future ally?) and all other Powers don't want Austria to gain too much. Otherwise their Lorraine cousins will be governors (or viceroys) of the Austrian Netherlands, though they might get the duchy of Teschen.
 
I just remembered something about the WotAS/7YW that would've had no bearing if Maria Anna had survived and imitated her sister's childbearing skills - Louise Élisabeth de France, the eldest daughter of Louis XV, was angling at one point for her husband to get a throne (eventually a la Aix-la-Chapelle they got the duchy of Parma, but ICR if this was before or after that) and she was in talks with Maria Theresia to get a throne in the Southern Netherlands - IDK the exact circumstances.

If Maria Anna and Charles have children, those children - Belgian (to put it loosely) born and bred - are better candidates to serve as governors than some archduke from Vienna who maybe has never heard of Belgium. (Sort of like Mary of Modena who had never heard of England when Lord Peterborough broached the subject of marriage to her mother).

As to the duchy of Teschen, that seems to have been a softsoap for the duke of Lorraine after the Emperor bartered away the duchy of Mantua & Montferrat of which he was the legal heir. OTL it was given to Maria Christine of Austria as a wedding present with the SN as a dowry when she married the penniless Albert of Saxony. Then when they had no children, it went to her adopted heir, Archduke Karl of Austria, the last Hapsburg Governor of the Netherlands. Here we would have a similar scenario - Charles of Lorraine is a penniless, landless prince (after his brother's bartered away Lorraine), so Maria Theresia might have François III/Franz I declare Charles his successor in Teschen, or have him settle Teschen on him outright.

Does anyone know what the terms were when François resigned Lorraine? AFAIK no mention ever gets made of his brother being his heir presumptive in Tuscany in exchange.

Also, for which thrones might the Caroline Lorraines be proposed? A revived duchy of Mantua or Milan or Montferrato? Maybe Poland at a pinch?
 
The only IMHO somewhat plausible scenario for a Lorraine Southern Netherlands would be a victorious Austria (with the right allies) against both France and Prussia. Then Austria could seize Prussia and something else (Parma?), but instead of granting their Lorraine cousins their dynastic duchies back, they could be granted the Southern Netherlands in compensation; since they want to spare France a bit (future ally?) and all other Powers don't want Austria to gain too much. Otherwise their Lorraine cousins will be governors (or viceroys) of the Austrian Netherlands, though they might get the duchy of Teschen.

Actually now that I think about it, Austria could also end up allying with France against Prussia. If they are victorious, then Austria could regain Silesia and probably some Italian territories, however they might be required to detach a territory in return. The Southern Netherlands are a much better candidate for this, than any other German or Italian territory, where the Austrian Habsburgs and later the Habsburg-Lorraines had a much stronger position. Though valuable, the Southern Netherlands, where strategically peripheral for the Austrian interests.

Poland could be an idea, though the electors of Saxony from the house of Wettin, probably have a better position there, since they actually have a powerbase of their own.
OTOH like the Spanish Bourbons, they could set them up in a not so important Italian principality, otherwise trading it for the Southern Netherlands would be an option.

However depending on butterflies, if this ATL is somewhat like OTL, then they would be candidates for new monarchies ITTL, like IOTL Bulgaria, Greece, Belgium or Romania.
 
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Anyone care to elaborate or have thoughts on this?

Francis Stephen surrendered all claims to Lorraine following the WPS, in exchange for Tuscany, which was vacant and the ruling house extinct. Lorraine went to the deposed King of Poland in compensation for his loss, where he ruled until death in 1763, and father-in-law of the king of France. All claims reverting to the French crown upon his death as the nearest relative. This was stipulated by the treaty.
 
Out of curiosity, Francis as Holy Roman Emperor wanted his daughter, Marie Christine a.k.a. 'Mimi' (OTL duchess of Teschen) to marry his nephew, the duke of Chablais in order to cement the ties between the house of Habsburg and the house of Lorraine. Would he perhaps instead offer Marie Christine to Charles Alexander's son? Or would Charles Alexander's son be married elsewhere (like to a Bourbon) in order to cement the Habsburg-Bourbon pact of Maria Theresa?
 
The marriage prospects of a son of Charles Alexander will depend on whether Charles Alexander gains a throne or that he stays serving the Austrian Habsburgs/Habsburg-Lorraines.

Especially when Charles Alexander would have gained a throne, then a Bourbon princess seems to be a more obvious choice. Not only for the two houses, but also for his territory.

Without a throne, his son will be an option, if no better candidate is available and/or they fall in love with each other, like IOTL Charles Alexander of Lorraine and Maria Anna of Habsburg.
 
Say that the pregnancy of Maria Anna in 1744 only costs her her fertility rather than her life. The child OTL was a girl (but for argument's sake say it's a boy), and a brief glance at the Lorrainer family tree tells me, that barring dying in a freak accident or the like, he'll still be alive at least in 1790 (he has a Lorrainer cousin who was born in 1745 and only died in 1822). Vienna will most likely leave Albert and Christine in charge of Hungary, rather than moving them to Brussels when Charles Alexander dies. How might this boy (Charles' oldest bastard son was Charles Frédéric, so let's appropriate the name) who ISN'T an Austrian archduke, but for all intents and purposes Hereditary Prince of Lorraine-in pretence be seen by the rest of Europe? A future 'sovereign' or just another landless younger son of a cadet branch floating around?
 
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