The Original "Power Couple"

What if Frederick The Great gets his way on whom he is to marry and is wed to his choice: Maria Theresa of Hapsburg in 1735?

A united House of Hohenzollern-Habsburg in 1740 at the head of a united Brandenburg-Austria (backed by Frederick's Prussians and Maria Theresa's Bohemians, Hungarians and Croatians), with Frederick in command turned loose on the Holy Roman Empire with an Imperial Crown of a different kind in mind...

A joint soverignty of Kiaser and Kaiseress of a truly unified German Empire, over 100 years earlier than OTL? How does France react? Russia? Britain?

Could Frederick and Maria Theresa buy off the Hungarians, Bohemians, Croatians and Italy with formal recognition of independent sovereigns for their full support in a wars with France the other German states and Russia? A pact with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth to secure their east flank against Russia? The German people: Could Frederick win "hearts and minds" with strong overtures of nationalism and a stable government with clear lines of succession?

Thoughts?
 
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As soon as that happened, continental gang-bang against the Austro-Prussians, no question.
 
What if Frederick The Great gets his way on whom he is to marry and is wed to his choice: Maria Theresa of Hapsburg in 1735?

A united House of Hohenzollern-Habsburg in 1740 at the head of a united Brandenburg-Austria (backed by Frederick's Prussians and Maria Theresa's Bohemians, Hungarians and Croatians), with Frederick in command turned loose on the Holy Roman Empire with an Imperial Crown of a different kind in mind...

A joint soverignty of Kiaser and Kaiseress of a truly unified German Empire, over 100 years earlier than OTL? How does France react? Russia? Britain?

Could Frederick and Maria Theresa buy off the Hungarians, Bohemians, Croatians and Italy with formal recognition of independent sovereigns for their full support in a wars with France the other German states and Russia? A pact with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth to secure their east flank against Russia? The German people: Could Frederick win "hearts and minds" with strong overtures of nationalism and a stable government with clear lines of succession?

Thoughts?
1. It would be Habsburg-Hohenzollern because Maria Theresa's family (and I know this will cause our Prussophiles to have a heart attack but it's the truth) was more important and had more prestige then Friedrich the Great (assuming they go for that route).
2. It's Kaiserin not Kaiseress.
3. Why would they give the Bohemians their own Monarchy? They were considered a Germanic Kingdom and Czech nationalism does not (and probably never would in this scenario) come along until for a century.
 
What if Frederick The Great gets his way on whom he is to marry and is wed to his choice: Maria Theresa of Hapsburg in 1735?

A united House of Hohenzollern-Habsburg in 1740 at the head of a united Brandenburg-Austria (backed by Frederick's Prussians and Maria Theresa's Bohemians, Hungarians and Croatians), with Frederick in command turned loose on the Holy Roman Empire with an Imperial Crown of a different kind in mind...

A joint soverignty of Kiaser and Kaiseress of a truly unified German Empire, over 100 years earlier than OTL? How does France react? Russia? Britain?

Could Frederick and Maria Theresa buy off the Hungarians, Bohemians, Croatians and Italy with formal recognition of independent sovereigns for their full support in a wars with France the other German states and Russia? A pact with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth to secure their east flank against Russia? The German people: Could Frederick win "hearts and minds" with strong overtures of nationalism and a stable government with clear lines of succession?

Thoughts?

As soon as that happened, continental gang-bang against the Austro-Prussians, no question.

I don't think so. While Austria-Prussia would be a formidable power, at that time they had no great quarrels with Russia, especially Austria had fought with Russia against the Turks.
France is another matter of course. They would definitely object such a united German power; and I think many imperial states wouldn't like the idea, too.
I'm unsure about the Britains. But I could think of an alliance with AP to counter the Bourbons in Spain and France. Remember, only the wars Frederick started made Prussia a great power in Europe, before it had been only a strong regional power.

Any attempt to unify the HRE by force would led to war sooner or later with France. But I can imagine a slow strengthening of the Emperor by diplomatic means. There would be practically no competitor within the HRE.

And then you have of course the different confessions of the Habsburg and Hohenzollern - that have to be solved, especially for the heir of the throne.

1. It would be Habsburg-Hohenzollern because Maria Theresa's family (and I know this will cause our Prussophiles to have a heart attack but it's the truth) was more important and had more prestige then Friedrich the Great (assuming they go for that route).
2. It's Kaiserin not Kaiseress.
3. Why would they give the Bohemians their own Monarchy? They were considered a Germanic Kingdom and Czech nationalism does not (and probably never would in this scenario) come along until for a century.

ad 1. True
ad 2. Correct
ad 3. I concur fully. There's no reason to let the Bohemians go. One of the oldest parts of the HRE.
 
I'm unsure about the Britains. But I could think of an alliance with AP to counter the Bourbons in Spain and France.

1. Someone suggested cozying up to Poland with intent of isolating them from Petersburg. That's an immediate CB as far as Russia is concerned; Russia's agents nearly controlled the Sejm.
2. The most influential members of the Russian court were openly receiving pensions from the French and the British; one of the very reasons for the Miracle of the House Brandenburg, in fact, owes a lot to the British Pension.

So if France or Britain decide to break the union up, Russia won't take that much persuasion to go along for the ride. And they can certainly win the war if they do get involved alongside another major power.

So basically it's up to Britain to decide whether the Bourbons or the H-Hs are more of a threat.
 
So basically it's up to Britain to decide whether the Bourbons or the H-Hs are more of a threat.

In 1740 (When Charles VI dies)?

The Bourbons are Britain's only remaining colonial rivals. H-H would be a continental power and, more to the point, a loaded gun pointed at the head of the Bourbons.

Britain has everything to gain by backing such a union and nothing to lose.
 
In 1740 (When Charles VI dies)?

The Bourbons are Britain's only remaining colonial rivals. H-H would be a continental power and, more to the point, a loaded gun pointed at the head of the Bourbons.

Britain has everything to gain by backing such a union and nothing to lose.

Fair enough.

In that case it really depends on who has bigger pockets vis-a-vis Russia :p
 
I just made a possible map of an alternate War of Austrian Succession based on this.

Base map is one I found while searching the blank map thread.

War_of_Austrian_Succession.png
 
In 1740 (When Charles VI dies)?

The Bourbons are Britain's only remaining colonial rivals. H-H would be a continental power and, more to the point, a loaded gun pointed at the head of the Bourbons.

Britain has everything to gain by backing such a union and nothing to lose.

Fair enough.

In that case it really depends on who has bigger pockets vis-a-vis Russia :p

That makes sense.

I just made a possible map of an alternate War of Austrian Succession based on this.

Base map is one I found while searching the blank map thread.

The question is if there would be really a war about the succession, or at least in that dimension. In OTL war broke out to a great part because everyone viewed Maria Theresia and her lands as a weak and easy prey - only then her enemies learned they had made a mistake. In ATL, with Austrian and Prussian forces united, its questionable if Bavaria would dare to ally with Francee. What do the imperial states fear more - Austria/Prussia and a Habsburg-Hohenzollern Emperor or a French Rhine border and - worst - a Bourbon Emperor?

If AP would concentrate on Saxony first I'm pretty sure it is knocked out of the war very soon - the same goes for Bavaria.
 
The question is if there would be really a war about the succession, or at least in that dimension. In OTL war broke out to a great part because everyone viewed Maria Theresia and her lands as a weak and easy prey - only then her enemies learned they had made a mistake. In ATL, with Austrian and Prussian forces united, its questionable if Bavaria would dare to ally with Francee. What do the imperial states fear more - Austria/Prussia and a Habsburg-Hohenzollern Emperor or a French Rhine border and - worst - a Bourbon Emperor?

If AP would concentrate on Saxony first I'm pretty sure it is knocked out of the war very soon - the same goes for Bavaria.
Yeah, I admit part of my reasoning here was to try and make a balanced Europe-wide war. But I was thinking that the Bourbons would probably start the conflict by supporting...say, Saxony or Bavaria as emperor for the time being, then Britain joins to prey on France's colonial possessions, and it escalates from there.

Also, IIRC Saxony and Poland were in a personal union at the time. At least, that's what the base map showed.
 
Fair enough.

In that case it really depends on who has bigger pockets vis-a-vis Russia :p

I think two factors come into play when influencing Russia:

1. A continuation of Habsburg-Hohenzollern co-operation in confronting the Ottomans, a type and level of localized support that France simply cannot offer.

and

2. Polish Partition: The powers in question Austria, Prussia and Russia were able to do it in OTL, in TTL, I don't see why they couldn't make the same sort of deals with pretty much the same territories changing hands, with the exception that, in TTL, Austria-Prussia gains the combined territories that Prussia and Austria gained seperately from the partitions. Russia gets the same territories they recieved in OTL.

If AP would concentrate on Saxony first I'm pretty sure it is knocked out of the war very soon - the same goes for Bavaria.

Probably A-P's opening moves of the war: Prussian armies swing down like a hammer on Saxony from the north with a supporting thrust from Bohemian forces from the southest. Austria strikes east into Bavaria with a supporting Bohemian thrust from the northeast in a a pair of pincer moves. Austro-Prussian and Bohemian forces link up in Bavaria to confront advancing French forces coming from the west. Russia pins down Poland-Lithuania in the east to prevent Poland from attacking Austria-Prussia from the rear, probably as part of TTL's Partition of Poland, actually.

Figure by war's end, Austria-Prussia gains Saxony, Bavaria, Posen and West Prussia. Russia gets Lithuania and Royal Poland (minus Posen and West Prussia)?

Maybe more?

If so, what territories would A-P be likely to pick up?
 
Heres a question for you all, would the House of Habsburg-Hohenzollern be Catholic or Lutheran?

I think it's more likely to have the Hohenzollern become Catholic than the Habsburgs go Protestant. Given the historical records, after 1600 more Protestant rulers converted to Catholicism than the contrary.
 
Heres a question for you all, would the House of Habsburg-Hohenzollern be Catholic or Lutheran?

I think it's more likely to have the Hohenzollern become Catholic than the Habsburgs go Protestant. Given the historical records, after 1600 more Protestant rulers converted to Catholicism than the contrary.

Definitely Catholic. The Habsburg would never accept to convert to Protestantism. But, of course, there would be a law that would state religious equality for both - maybe all - Christian confessions -the Hohenzollern would accept nothing less.

I'm quite sure that any heir would receive teaching in both religions but be Catholic for political reasons.
 
I think it's more likely to have the Hohenzollern become Catholic than the Habsburgs go Protestant. Given the historical records, after 1600 more Protestant rulers converted to Catholicism than the contrary.

Definitely Catholic. The Habsburg would never accept to convert to Protestantism. But, of course, there would be a law that would state religious equality for both - maybe all - Christian confessions -the Hohenzollern would accept nothing less.

I'm quite sure that any heir would receive teaching in both religions but be Catholic for political reasons.
As I thought, I just wanted to see if anyone would make the argument that Maria Theresa would go Protestant - for shits and giggles.
 
I think that this will be a good basis for a TL, assuming someone here is making one. I mean, the very idea of a united Catholic Austria Prussia allies with Britain and Russia conquering Europe is Uber Cool, to say the least.

When do you think that A-P will unite as one country (possibly called Germany after earlier rise of nationalism) and how will it unite Germany? Also, as it dosent yet posess any Italian areas it could soon asist unification there and have another ally...
 
Heres a question for you all, would the House of Habsburg-Hohenzollern be Catholic or Lutheran?

Catholic. Frederick himself didn't care for religion, so he'd probably think that "Frankfurt is worth a Mass". Maria Theresa is too rigidly Catholic to not be; the possibility for the Habsburgs to be Lutheran died with Maximilian II.
 
Would Fredrick be willing to produce a son with MT because i dont see him allowing Prussia to be inherited by a non-Hohenzollern
Maria Theresa was Friedrich's first choice for who he wanted to marry, so one who assume he intended to have a son with her, or else he be planning to have Prussia inherited by his nephew and Austria to either the House of Lorraine via Maria Anna or the House of Wittelsbach, via Maria Amalia.
 
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