The Old War Wagon...

The Old War Wagon

Under the shadow of the twin 12” guns, a handful of dignitaries had assembled. The wind extended the stars and strips fully, and whipped up whitecaps on the icy Piscataqua River. Across the river, in Portsmouth’s Prescott Park, a small crowd gathered, awaiting the ceremony. The old battleship’s steam whistle split the air, drawing the attention of the few pedestrians that didn’t know what was going on.

With that, the band on the fantail struck up the navy hymn, and the ceremonies began. “One hundred years ago today, the commission pennant was first unfurled on this historic vessel. As my great great grandfather stood on this deck, there were 46 stars on the American flag, and the world was a vastly different place. Motorcars were few, and streetcars and horses ruled the streets. This mighty ship served well, protecting American lives in times of insurrection in foreign lands, escorting convoys throughout the Great War, and training our new officers in peace. She narrowly escaped the breakers when each nation was allocated a number of obsolescent pre-dreadnoughts for trade protection at the Washington Treaty, and was chosen to receive a rebuild of epic proportions. Returning to service in 1938, she fired the first American shots of World War II, defending herself when attacked without provocation by the Nazi pocket battleship Graf Spee. Though the country was not drawn into the World War that day, the course was clear, and the most thorough repair job possible was done to prepare her.

She served with the neutrality patrol in the Atlantic, and became one of the few battleships to sink a U-boat. With tensions between the United States and Japan rising, she moved to the Pacific as the only fast battleship in Pearl Harbor. The day after her arrival, the Japanese struck. A hardened veteran of battles against U-boats, she was the first to return fire at the treacherous attack, blasting Japanese planes from the sky and escaping undamaged. The littlest battleship was the only battleship to see action at the Coral Sea and Midway, while her bigger, but slower, sisters remained at home. Her guns added to the cloud of destruction defending the mighty Enterprise, adding to the toll of Axis planes to fall to her guns. That day, my grandfather was buried at sea from her decks. But beating the Axis couldn’t wait for any to mourn, it was all ahead flank as she joined the great armada that stormed across the Pacific, where she backed down from nothing. Guadalcanal, the Solomons, and many more—she fought Japanese cruisers and destroyers, sinking one Japanese battleship in the slot with the great guns above me. At the great battle of Leyte Gulf, she was attached to the jeep carriers. When Japanese battleships raced down upon the horribly outgunned Taffy 3 at Samar, she catapulted her floatplanes into the fray, but arrived too late to engage the enemy herself. Many American sailors were grateful for her hospitality as she plucked the crews of the destroyers from the sea in what some call “The United States Navy’s Finest Hour.” She faced kamikazes as the inexorable advance continued, more than once peeling the remnants of an enemy plane from her decks—but her armor, forged 35 years before to fend off shells, held, and she stood with the fleet in Tokyo Bay, the oldest warship present when Japan surrendered. With ships of all types, she took part in Operation Magic Carpet, transporting troops by the thousands home when the war was over—then entered the reserve fleet for a well-earned rest herself.

Recalled to duty when North Korea was invaded, she joined the gun line, and her 12” guns proved highly effective. When the area she was shelling proved to be occupied by a large armored force, she engaged in one of the few tank versus battleship engagement on record, shattering the enemy forces. When the war ended, she slept again—but fitfully, as if she knew it would not be a long nap. Her voyage down the Carquinez Strait when she broke free of her moorings has yet to be explained; some say the ship herself knew she was needed.

Brought back from mothballs, I was with her as she joined the USS New Jersey off Vietnam, routing the enemy whenever and wherever she should find him. Still, despite great success in a war that divided the nation, she was returned to mothballs, a year after her bigger, younger sister. That day, some said her day was done. “Rest well, yet sleep lightly, and hear the call, if sounded, to provide firepower for freedom,” her captain said. And all but a rare few thought the last battleship had completed her last voyage.

And she slept away the years, until that call sounded again. With missiles and Gatlings added to her great guns, she answered the bugles as Ronald Reagan called for warships to defend America once again, serving in the cold war—off the Lebanese coast, in the Caribbean and the Persian Gulf. Through Desert Storm, she aided her bigger sisters in the liberation of Kuwait. So terrible was her firepower that enemy troops surrendered to her drone aircraft when they saw that she lurked out to sea.

Refueling in Yemen alongside the USS Cole, vicious suicide bombers attacked her—and found, as the Japanese and Germans did generations ago, that her stout American steel was not easily damaged. It’s an exaggeration to say that the only repairs needed involved a bucket of paint, but a blast that might have crippled a destroyer left her fully able to return home under her own steam.

Her small size—and correspondingly small crew—saved her again, when Congress narrowly approved her overhaul and retention as the big Iowa’s were mothballed again, then stricken one by one. Today, she carries the biggest guns and thickest armor of any warship in the world. As she lay in New York harbor on September 11, 2001, terrorists struck. Putting aside the horrors, the brave man and women raced to the aid of casualties in the twin towers, and 12 men and women from her crew died there. Those great guns have saved the marines on hostile shores yet again in Iraq.

Though today is her birthday, New Hampshire can not rest; with my daughter—the fourth of my family to serve aboard her-- at the helm, she sails with tomorrow’s tide for the Persian Gulf. I salute her captain and crew—good luck, and God Bless the Old War Wagon, the last of the battleships.”

As other speakers took their turns on the platform, James O’Neill hardly heard them; his thoughts went back to the mighty ship’s exploits in years past—when she was considered obsolete, or second string, or an oversized cruiser, to the day she first made a splash on the pages of history, in the South Atlantic, in 1939…


(The "rebuilding" in the 1930's was not actually a rebuilding, but effectively taking the ship into drydock, jacking her shi[s bell up, and dismantling almost everything below it, building a new ship with token amounts of the old, and the same belt armor thickness. She's NOT a hundred year old ship in practice...)

I may pursue this more, if there's interest. I've got part of her timeline written. I posted on the naval fiction board a while ago, and thought more viewpoints would be nice. Any interest?

(All the Washington Treaty powers will be playing with their pre-dreadnoughts to the limit of the treaty, or beyond.)
 
I could see the US doing something like what you are describing, but I doubt any other nation would keep their pre-dreadnoughts around for anything but target practice. The US Navy has a history for 'rebuilding' warships, their monitors such as the Dictator and Puritan, come to mind.

It may be more realistic to have this US predreadnought see service out in the Far East, probably with the Asiatic Fleet operating out of the Subic Bay. Perhaps under reconstruction in San Francisco at the time of Pearl Harbor she does see some service in the Pacific War and get temporarily turned over the form the Filipino Navy in the early 1950s. Perhaps getting a better rap than the USS Oregon.

However, for a predreadnought to still be in front line service in 1980 would be stretching things a lot.
 
However, for a predreadnought to still be in front line service in 1980 would be stretching things a lot.
Who Cares --------- This sound interesting ---- So let stretch a Little and see where this go.
 
I think it would be interesting if this predreadnought had participated in the voyage of the Great White Fleet. Tho in order to qualify as a 'fast battleship' I would almost wonder if it would be more likely to be a follow on class to the last armoured cruisers laid down by the US Navy. The 10in guns being replaced by 12in. It would be a sort of proto-battlecruiser similar to the Japanese classes of the same period.
 
A few more thoughts...

"NHBL" stands for New Hampshire Battleship Lover--so it's going to be the New Hampshire, not an armored cruiser. She missed the Great White Fleet.

The other nations will keep theirs around, simply for convoy escort and showing the flag, training ships, and other duties that require a tough ship, but not necessarily a full blown battleship. Japan is going to do a rebuild on at least one of theirs that's essentially a new ship--a way to get real firepower added--and as close to treaty limits as Germany's Bismarck. After all, they resent the treaty limits, and want as much gun power as they can have.

The "rebuild" is so complete that she's essentially a new ship, new design--and intended as a counter to the panzerschiffe, so she's in the Atlantic. The USA has NOTHING that can both catch and fight Graf Spee and her ilk, whereas Britain has three battlecruisers.

I'll post the AH modifications to the Washington Treaty in a day or so, and will keep going with this.
 
Washington Treaty

Here's the revisions to the Washington Treaty that produced New Hampshire. They took advantage of the lack of definition of what a "refit" is, amnd some legal footwork by the navy's lawyers, to build what's essentially a light battlecruiser.

Washington Treaty addition:

The contracting powers may retain a limited number of pre-dreadnought battleships. The USA and Great Britain may retain 3 predreadnoughts, Japan two predreadnoughts, and Italy and France, one each. The vessels designated may not be replaced, save for accidental loss or destruction. In the event of accidental loss, they may be replaced with new construction displacing no more than 13,000 tons and mounting no more than 4 guns of a caliber larger than 8 inches, and no guns larger than 12 inches.


In addition to the tonnage in Chapter Two, Part One, the vessels listed in Chapter II, Part 1 A may be retained, their tonnage not counting against the total capital ship tonnage. The vessels designated may not be replaced, save for accidental loss or destruction, until they are 25 years old. Replacement vessels may displace no more than 13,000 tons and mount no more than 4 guns of a caliber larger than 8 inches, and no guns larger than 12 inches. They may be refitted in the same manner as capital ships


Article II
The Contracting Powers may retain respectively the capital ships which are specified in Chapter II, Part 1. In addition to the tonnage in Chapter Two, Part One, the predreadnoughts listed in Chapter II, Part 1 A may be retained, their tonnage not counting against the total capital ship tonnage. On the coming into force of the present Treaty, but subject to the following provisions of this Article, all other capital ships, built or building, of the United States, the British Empire and Japan shall be disposed of as prescribed in Chapter II, Part 2.

In addition to the capital ships specified in Chapter II, Part 1, the United States may complete and retain two ships of the West Virginia class now under construction. On the completion of these two ships, the North Dakota and Delaware, shall be disposed of as prescribed in Chapter II, Part 2.

The British Empire may, in accordance with the replacement table in Chapter II, Part 3, construct two new capital ships not exceeding 35,000 tons (35,560 metric tons) standard displacement each. On the completion of the said two ships the Thunderer, King George V, Ajax and Centurion shall be disposed of as prescribed in Chapter II, Part 2.

Chapter Two, Part 1A
United States <New Hampshire, Kansas, and Vermont>
Great Britian <Lord Nelson, Agamemnon, and Hibernia>
Japan <Ibuki and Kuramas>
Italy <Emanuele Filiberto or Sardegnat>
France <Mirabeau>

PART 3.-Replacement
The replacement of capital ships and aircraft carriers shall take place according to the rules in Section I and the tables in Section II of this Part.
SECTION I.-RULES FOR REPLACEMENT
(a) Capital ships and aircraft carriers twenty years after the date of their completion may, except as otherwise provided in Article VIII and in the tables in Section II of this Part, be replaced by new construction, but within the limits prescribed in Article IV and Article VII. The keels of such new construction may, except as otherwise provided in Article VIII and in the tables in Section II of this Part, be laid down not earlier than seventeen years from the date of completion of the tonnage to be replaced, provided, however, that no capital ship tonnage, with the exception of the ships referred to in the third paragraph of Article II, and the replacement tonnage. Replacement predreadnoughts may displace no more than 13,000 tons and mount no more than 4 guns of a caliber larger than 8 inches, and no guns larger than 12 inches.


Part 4. Definitions
PREDREADNOUGHT
A predreadnought is defined as a capital ship mounting no more than 4 guns of greater than 8” caliber, and no guns larger than 12”, with the exception of the 9.2” guns on the British predreadnoughts Lord Nelson, Agamemnon, and Hibernia.


Sections in italics are changed from the OTL version.

Here's the original: http://www.ibiblio.org/pha/pre-war/1922/nav_lim.html
 
It has been suggested that is the 1950's refit of the Iowas had been just a few years later they may have been given Nuclear steam Plants.

If the NH is pulled out of Mothball in the 50's to be used as a Test Bed for the first Nuclear Steam Plants, This could be a reason she is still in Service.

Picture in 1911
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uss_new_hampshire_bb.jpg

?do Whe have anyone that can take that picture and show Her as of Today after her latest refit.?
 
"NHBL" stands for New Hampshire Battleship Lover--so it's going to be the New Hampshire, not an armored cruiser. She missed the Great White Fleet.

The other nations will keep theirs around, simply for convoy escort and showing the flag, training ships, and other duties that require a tough ship, but not necessarily a full blown battleship.

I've know what NHBL has stood for for years. I just didn't know which New Hampshire you were talking about and just didn't feel like trying to read your mind.

Frankly, for simple escort duty etc., the British should just keep the Furious, Glorious and Courageous as is. They were historically used as training ships and they are not full blown battleships.
 
First off I'd like to say that this is an incredibly cool idea. The prospect of a pre-dreadnaught being rebuilt and serving to this day is incredibly cool :cool:

However, forgive my ignorance/raining on your parade. But what would be the purpose of retaining such a vessel when it would be much easier just to build a series of new ships under the provisions of the Washington Treaty? It seems overly complicated (no matter how cool) to rebuild pre-dreadnaughts into "light battle cruisers".

That being said, I'm not without an idea of how to justify such a provision. Perhaps your POD could be that pre-dreadnaughts as a whole contribute more during WWI and thus "prove" in a sense their usefullness. For example, perhaps Admiral Craddock opts to bring the HMS Canopus along to deal with Maxmillian von Spee's East Asia Squadron. Thus when the two fleets encounter eachother at the Battle of Coronel the RN's 12 inch guns on the Canopus lead to them defeating the East Asia Squadron. As a result of this more stock is put in the usefullness of pre-dreadnaughts throughout WWI thus allowing for your provision in the Washington Naval Treaty.
 
Answers for Fearless Leader

I'll address these in reverse order.

The reason for keeping a few pre-dreadnoughts in the treaty is in responce to commerce raiders of the Great War. A single pre-dreadnought escort is more than enough to deter a raider, which can't afford any damage far from home, yet a treaty cruiser would be easy pickings for a heavy raider--a battlecruiser, for example.

A predreadnought is distinctly NOT able to contribute significantly to the battle line, so doesn't affect the balance of power with regard to the main fleets.

The Commonwealth wasn't especially happy about a small Royal Navy--getting these ships written into the treaty allows a small force present in Austrailia and/or New Zealand--a force that can't catch a cruiser, but should scare of any pair of treaty cruisers.

As for building a new ship, the treaty included a battleship holiday, with no new build battleships for quite some time...and replacement predreadnoughts can't be as big as the existing ones. Purpose of that in the treaty provision is to keep the predreadnought fleet as second class ships...even with 12" guns, a 13,000 ton ship is going to be an oversized cruiser, no more. But a rebuild allows additional onnage for anti-aircraft and anti-torpedo defense. The complicated rebuild is to work (barely) within the treaty to get a more capable ship. In addition, this is the depression years, with the WPA and projects to keep America working. The yard doing the work has some strong political connections, so gets the military contract. (Some things never change)
 
You'd need a lot of power to make a pre-dreadnought go fast enough to be a fast battleship. Using Springsharp (great program, by the way :)) if you fitted New Hampshire with its hull dimensions with the same machinery as the South Dakota class ships you'd get a top speed of 30.72 knots. That may be enough to qualify as a fast battleship, I don't know. But 130,000 horsepower with two props is kinda pushing it, too.

If you did a rebuild in the 1930s, you'd end up probably with tripod masts like most US BBs of the 1930s, and the 7" casemate mount batteries would get sacked in favor of a slightly higher freeboard and a rework of the hull for a larger outer deck. The old 12" guns would probably get fitted with triple turrets, too, probably 2-4 5-inch mounts, and of course a bunch of 3" and .50 machine guns for air defense. You'd have something with large guns, a monster second battery and a moderate AA battery - but still a helluva lot of firepower for something that has circa 20,000 tons displacement. It would also see a total rebuild of the superstructure, probably two stacks instead of three (maybe one even), and eventually fitting it with the CXAM radar. A formidable rival to Graf Spee and the pocket battleships indeed, if somewhat more succeptible to torpedoes than modern warships.

WWII would see it gain a bunch of Bofors 40mm and Oerlikon autocannons, probably somewhat replacing the 3" and 12.7mm guns. A veteran of WWII, like most of the USN's heavyweight warships she goes into reserve.

Called back for Korea, she'd get a helicopter to spot for her guns in place of the floatplanes, and newer radar and sonar systems. Displacement by this point has probably risen to the 22,000-ton ballpark, and she would in effect be a very heavy cruiser.

Now, here we get changes. You have two potential paths here. If she is still out there in 1957-1960, she might just get selected to go with Bainbridge, Long Beach and Enterprise to become the Navy's Nuclear Fleet. That would require heavy modifications, but its doable, and you'd need it anyways. That refit would probably see Talos and Terrier missiles added to the armament. A crowded, heavy ship you'd have by this point, but she'd still put up a helluva fight if you needed it.

Otherwise, she'd probably stay active to be part of NATO's initial exercises, then go into a well-deserved retirement.

Following the modern build timeline, she'd probably get called up long before New Jersey did, because of Congressional pressure and the Marines wanting some real fire support. Probably gets an austere refit as New Jersey did, then off to Vietnam in 1966 or 1967. Serves four or five tours of duty until retired again in 1970.

Reagan calls her back with the Iowas. Another superstructure rebuild probably ensues, to fit SPS-48 and SPS-49 radars, electronic warfare systems, and of course the aforementioned Phalanx CIWS and Tomahawk and Harpoon missiles. Displacement maxes out at about 25,000 tons, crew drops to about 650-700, she gets a new SH-60 helicopter and new electronics. And as she's cheaper to operate than the Iowas, she'd stay active. The old warhorse sees lots and lots of action here - Lebanon, perhaps Grenada and/or Panama, perhaps Operation Preying Mantis, (Iranians getting smoked by a 80-year-old battleship - wouldn't THAT hurt the ego :D) Desert Storm, Perhaps the Balkans and/or East Timor, USS Cole and 9/11. A warhorse indeed - being in the middle of the mayhem, no matter where it is.

This is just my take. Use what ya like. As a battleship nut myself (who largely has focused on the Iowas, Montanas and South Dakotas :)) I find the idea of a pre-dreadnought essentially becoming the king slugger of the surface navy very intriguing. :)
 
Designs and such...

The rebuild is essentially bringing her down almost to the keel--and lengthening that as well--so the limits of her old hull form are minimal. She ends up longer, as some of the foreign rebuilds did, and a bit beamier, as anti-torpedo protections are added in.

She ends up with 4 shafts. The old 12" guns are replaced with 12"/50's in new mountings with 45 degree elevation. Belt armor the same, as per treaty, better deck, and some other changes. More of the details will wait...I know what they are, but will reveal them in time as I write her tale. (I have parts of three diffent stories from her long career in the works.)

Nice speculation; I might take an idea or two :)

She's not going to go nuclear, though she will see Veitnam, and other action--Lebanon, Grenada, and more. By the time the 21st century rolls around, she's old, but one fiesty old lady--and as much a symbol of the steel navy as USS Constitution is of the sail navy.

It's late; no time to reply further, but there's more on the Naval Fiction Board, though it's burried a bit.
 
I'll address these in reverse order.

The reason for keeping a few pre-dreadnoughts in the treaty is in responce to commerce raiders of the Great War. A single pre-dreadnought escort is more than enough to deter a raider, which can't afford any damage far from home, yet a treaty cruiser would be easy pickings for a heavy raider--a battlecruiser, for example.

A predreadnought is distinctly NOT able to contribute significantly to the battle line, so doesn't affect the balance of power with regard to the main fleets.

The Commonwealth wasn't especially happy about a small Royal Navy--getting these ships written into the treaty allows a small force present in Austrailia and/or New Zealand--a force that can't catch a cruiser, but should scare of any pair of treaty cruisers.

As for building a new ship, the treaty included a battleship holiday, with no new build battleships for quite some time...and replacement predreadnoughts can't be as big as the existing ones. Purpose of that in the treaty provision is to keep the predreadnought fleet as second class ships...even with 12" guns, a 13,000 ton ship is going to be an oversized cruiser, no more. But a rebuild allows additional onnage for anti-aircraft and anti-torpedo defense. The complicated rebuild is to work (barely) within the treaty to get a more capable ship. In addition, this is the depression years, with the WPA and projects to keep America working. The yard doing the work has some strong political connections, so gets the military contract. (Some things never change)

I'm still not quite convinced that the major powers would sign on to keeping a pre-dreadnaught around to serve as a deterrent against raiders simply because I don't think they'd be perceived as that effective. For despite the fact that a pre-dreadnaught outguns any potential commerce raider, their lack of speed would inhibit them from pursuing a commerce raider which also limits their ability to deter potential raids (they can't be everywhere...) Also keep in mind that the experience of WWI had commerce raiding being done by light/armored cruisers not battlecruisers.

Also take into account the disdain in which most navies held the pre-dreadnaughts in OTL, I believe the Imperial German Navy called them the "Five Minute Ships". You need to remove the stigma of obscolescence in order for any of the pre-dreadnaughts to survive the Washington Treaty.

Which is why I proposed a POD in the early phases of the war. Have the HMS CANOPUS win the battle of Coronel and defeat the East Asia Squadron. Perhaps have the battle of Cape Sarych result in the Russian Predreadnaughts sinking/heavily damaging the SMS GOEBEN (Perhaps a Russian shell hits the magazine?). Then have the German pre-dreadnaughts inflict some damage on the RN at Jutland (commanders are more aggressive etc.). As a result of these engagements you have the pre-dreadnaughts come off in a much better light thus providing incentive to the major powers to keep them.

Another knock-on effect of the maitenance of pre-dreadnaughts in the post-washington treaty might be in the German navy. Perhaps instead of building new ships like the GRAF SPEE, perhaps they simply modernize their existing pre-dreadnaughts?
 
I'm still not quite convinced that the major powers would sign on to keeping a pre-dreadnaught around to serve as a deterrent against raiders simply because I don't think they'd be perceived as that effective. For despite the fact that a pre-dreadnaught outguns any potential commerce raider, their lack of speed would inhibit them from pursuing a commerce raider which also limits their ability to deter potential raids (they can't be everywhere...) Also keep in mind that the experience of WWI had commerce raiding being done by light/armored cruisers not battlecruisers.

I agree with you here. The problem with the idea of using predreadnoughts escorting convoys is that in many instances the convoys will be faster than their escorts. Also holding onto the predreadnoughts is like keeping a dinosaur around locked in amber. A modernized Lord Nelson class would ditch the 9in guns in favour of 6in twin turrets or some such.
 
^ Well, in NHBL's idea the pre-dreadnought got re-made into a what in effect is a smaller battleship, something that could work as a convoy escort. I don't think the convoys would move that fast in WWI, and she doesn't get rebuilt until (I'm assuming) the early 1930s.
 
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