The New Transport America: A Collaborative TL

FDW

Banned
I find it implausible that the US would import technology like this. The US is insisting on reinventing the wheel, today, when it's recognized it's lost all vestiges of rail expertise; in a high-investment ATL, it would have its closed internal market, like Japan does today.

It's implausible and the reasoning behind it is kind of contrived (namely, Reagan riding and being inspired by the Shinkansen enough to replicate it in California), but I don't think it's completely impossible, especially given that TTL's CAHSR is a PPP that's getting no Federal funding for the initial phase.

And while I would imagine that American companies would likely consist of a majority of the US Transit market (what with 2 local railcar companies), but the market won't be entirely closed TTL.

However, I do think domestic US HSR standards would indeed have low ruling grades. Three cheers for extreme tunneling through Tejon Pass!

Not Tejon, it's Tehachapi Pass that's going to be tunneled through for the first line.
 
Not all ideas that could work today make sense as alt history, and vice versa.

True, but not if there's a backstory which is plausible and convincing enough.

Specifically, in the 1960s, there was no need for cross-state commuter rail in MA and RI. Boston and Providence were still two clearly separate metro areas. There were Providence suburbs in Massachusetts, but Providence was and still is the metro area with the best fit between state and metro area boundaries; today, with more sprawl than there was 50 years ago, around 80% of the Providence NECTA is in Rhode Island while around 98% of the state is in the Providence NECTA.

Understandable. However, I find the takeover of the UTC by the General Assembly to form the backbone of RIPTA and the replacing of the Boston MTA with the MBTA by the General Court in the same year to be too coincidental not to use. At least for a couple of decades both the Rhode Island and Greater Boston systems would be distinct, and yes the Boston-Providence connection (or even the Boston-Woonsocket connection) would be intercity routes, with any commuter rail service for Providence confined to the state and adjacent areas. However, it's not that which would be the use for an MBTA takeover, but more the (re)introduction of rapid transit (or rather a mixed rapid transit/commuter rail service, not too different from Sydney, Australia's former CityRail service and/or Cleveland's Rapid), which I honestly don't trust my (our?) State officials or anyone appointed by the State to provide through RIPTA even in OTL. (Look at how, for example, the Providence-Newport Ferry was cut because the subsidies ran out despite having heavy usage and popularity.) That's how I view it, as well as retaining rail service in Pawtucket (and maybe get rid of that ugly shade of brick on the train station).

The Providence Line may look like commuter rail, but the connection from Boston to Providence (as opposed to the suburbs in between) is intercity in both distance and travel characteristics, much like New York-New Haven. For example, when I took the Providence-Boston trip on weekends, about 40% of the traffic seemed to originate in Providence itself, which on weekdays only contributes about 10-15% of the line's ridership; this high ratio of weekend-to-weekday traffic suggests it's used as a cheap intercity line.

I can believe it, and it sounds about right. That almost has not changed even with the extension of service into South County (though I would honestly think they should increase service to TF Green, particularly as MassPort is trying to promote it and Manchester-Boston Regional Airport as alternatives to help alleviate congestion at Logan itself).

Conversely, subway-commuter rail interlining would've worked amazingly well 100 or even 60 years ago, but today it's problematic, to say the least. The loading gauges are too different, proof-of-payment exists today so in New York at least* the fare payment systems would be different, there's the possibility of timed cross-platform transfers at new commuter rail stations, and commuter rail can plausibly run much faster than a subway ever could.

True. However, how would, say, LRT/commuter rail interlining work? Would it be similar or different to subway/commuter rail interlining? In Ottawa, the O-Train is LRT but using regular trainsets on a mainline track, so the possibility can be done.
 

FDW

Banned
True. However, how would, say, LRT/commuter rail interlining work? Would it be similar or different to subway/commuter rail interlining? In Ottawa, the O-Train is LRT but using regular trainsets on a mainline track, so the possibility can be done.

If it's a heavy loco-hauled consist, it's not going to work too well. But if it's just a light DMU (like what's in Ottawa and Austin, and suburban Dallas), then it could probably be done.
 
However, in an ATL, it's almost certain the Northeast would've had HSR before California. In OTL, the Metroliners averaged about 120 km/h end to end, marginally less than the Kodama. By the time the Metroliners started running the Hikari was averaging 160 km/h, which was unheard of elsewhere in the world, but more attention to the schedule would've led to similar improvements in speed in the Northeast in the 1970s. The schedules were sometimes very fast on paper, in the 140 km/h area, but the trains couldn't meet them, so Amtrak added buffer time, slowing the Metroliners back down. (The Acela's scheduled time from NY to DC today is more than that of the fastest Metroliners in the 1970s.)

For TTL Metroliner/Acela to work, however, one would need a better trainset than the Metrolines. As innovative as the Metroliners were for North America, part of the reason for the addition of buffer time by Amtrak was because the Metroliners had reliability problems. If those were fixed early on, then maybe I could see it continuing and evolving to the point where expansion of Metroliner service into Boston could be possible whilst still meeting an ambitious schedule.
 
Let's try and keep the momentum up on this. Its probably time to be taking less in generalities than to start writing specific pieces, but there hasn't really been much talk about formats... So I guess the question is, where do we go from here. I'd like to start writing, and to keep momentum up.

In terms of suggestions, a few things come to mind. The biggest two are that a list of "canonical" high level things is probably going to help contributors a lot. Theres a lot of back and forth here, but to actually write about a specific city what's really important is a quick reference to things like what funding is available where, and what is built when. The other is that a collaborative thing like this might be better suited to a wiki than a forum. Perhaps use fhe wiki for that outline and for pages on specifix topics, but lost completed articles/features/topics/whatever on the forum.

The other more basic question is what should contributors actually write? I'd like to start by doing something about Vancouver, but I'm past a broad outline of points and it seems a but presumptuous to just write a full article along the lines of a Transport America feature. We should probably discus a convention if this is really going to be collaborative. Again, the wiki seems a decent option, especially to spare the forums a huge number of threads on specific components of this TL...

All that said, as I started off with, Im concerned the momentum on this might drop off in the transition from high level conception to creating a specific fleshed out TL, so unless anyone objects I'm also going to start putting together an article formatted post about Vancouver in the forties, fiftie and sixtiess, talking about the salvation of the streetcars, the fate of the interurbans and the start of the trolleybus system. I'm thinking a finished product along the lines of the post about Detroit I linked to a ways back, but will also be thinking about ways to make discussion and revision of it easier than my posting a giant blob of text.
 

FDW

Banned
Let's try and keep the momentum up on this. Its probably time to be taking less in generalities than to start writing specific pieces, but there hasn't really been much talk about formats... So I guess the question is, where do we go from here. I'd like to start writing, and to keep momentum up.

I've been taking a couple days break from this thread to finish an essay for English class. Now that that's out of the way, I'm going to continue hashing out HSR. I've figured out what Texas's system, Florida's system, and what the Midwest system look like in general terms.

In terms of suggestions, a few things come to mind. The biggest two are that a list of "canonical" high level things is probably going to help contributors a lot. Theres a lot of back and forth here, but to actually write about a specific city what's really important is a quick reference to things like what funding is available where, and what is built when.

The main disagreements here are between me and TheMann. He tried to make a highly convergent version while I insisted that he give me time to present an altered version of events that I think would be more plausible and interesting.

The other is that a collaborative thing like this might be better suited to a wiki than a forum. Perhaps use fhe wiki for that outline and for pages on specifix topics, but lost completed articles/features/topics/whatever on the forum.

I figured that this thread would be where we would collaborate, and once all the ideas are put together, we post the actual updates in another thread.

The other more basic question is what should contributors actually write? I'd like to start by doing something about Vancouver, but I'm past a broad outline of points and it seems a but presumptuous to just write a full article along the lines of a Transport America feature. We should probably discus a convention if this is really going to be collaborative. Again, the wiki seems a decent option, especially to spare the forums a huge number of threads on specific components of this TL...

I think it would be a good idea to start by laying out you're ideas for Vancouver here, and then turn them into a full post later.

All that said, as I started off with, Im concerned the momentum on this might drop off in the transition from high level conception to creating a specific fleshed out TL, so unless anyone objects I'm also going to start putting together an article formatted post about Vancouver in the forties, fiftie and sixtiess, talking about the salvation of the streetcars, the fate of the interurbans and the start of the trolleybus system. I'm thinking a finished product along the lines of the post about Detroit I linked to a ways back, but will also be thinking about ways to make discussion and revision of it easier than my posting a giant blob of text.

I'm going to figure out a way to string together some blurbs myself about San Francisco, once I get there.
 
We should probably discus a convention if this is really going to be collaborative. Again, the wiki seems a decent option, especially to spare the forums a huge number of threads on specific components of this TL...

Well - I actually learned this from Brainbin and e of pi; we could use Skype as a chat feature, with a master document and various other drafts hosted on Google Drive. How does that sound?
 
Well - I actually learned this from Brainbin and e of pi; we could use Skype as a chat feature, with a master document and various other drafts hosted on Google Drive. How does that sound?

Interesting. Would be nice to interact with each other off of the forum. Is Facebook a good idea too?
 
A Google doc is actually probably the best option in terms of writing collaboratively. Full word processing, real time multi user editing, integrated commenting and chat. Facebook and Skype don't really seem to do anything we dontbhave here or through a Google doc, and both docs and the forum are more persistent.
 
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I wrote a long reply a few days ago but it got killed in a BSOD.

It's implausible and the reasoning behind it is kind of contrived (namely, Reagan riding and being inspired by the Shinkansen enough to replicate it in California), but I don't think it's completely impossible, especially given that TTL's CAHSR is a PPP that's getting no Federal funding for the initial phase.

I thought the POD was 1940s? Reagan riding the Shinkansen and getting impressed is really implausible, for the following reasons:

1. Reagan was a right-wing populist, and right-wing populism is anti-rail. In Switzerland, the SVP is also anti-rail and pro-road. Reagan's own political convictions would matter less than the coalition backing him; compare his opposition to Prop 6 with his administration's inaction on AIDS. The movement behind him was pro-road because Cars Are For Real Americans. Moreover, the US political system is such that the only conservative movement possible after the collapse of the postwar elite consensus was right-wing populist with elements from both religious conservatism and right-wing liberalism.

2. Postwar America was the richest country in the world, and had no reason to import ideas from elsewhere. In the 1960s, American technology was putting people on the moon. The idea of malaise and of the need to learn from other countries only started in the Carter administration. With today's way of looking at things we can trace American relative decline to the postwar era, but in the postwar era people didn't think that way.

3. Japan in the 1960s was still a middle-income country. Americans viewed its exports as cheap and shoddy, same way they view Chinese exports today.

Also, half of the money California currently has for HSR is federal. It has several billion more on hand to match any other potential source of funding, but does not have the funding yet.

Not Tejon, it's Tehachapi Pass that's going to be tunneled through for the first line.

This is what I mean when I say there's a difference between fantasy for the future and an alt history retro-fantasy. The entire case for Tehachapi over Tejon is service to Palmdale and the possible connection to Las Vegas; this is why LA County pushes the Tehachapi detour so hard right now. But in 1980, Lancaster and Palmdale had 60,000 people between them, vs. 300,000 plus suburbs today. Nobody would have cared about serving Antelope Valley. Nor would anyone have cared about serving Las Vegas, which had half a million people in the entire metro area then.

Understandable. However, I find the takeover of the UTC by the General Assembly to form the backbone of RIPTA and the replacing of the Boston MTA with the MBTA by the General Court in the same year to be too coincidental not to use. At least for a couple of decades both the Rhode Island and Greater Boston systems would be distinct, and yes the Boston-Providence connection (or even the Boston-Woonsocket connection) would be intercity routes, with any commuter rail service for Providence confined to the state and adjacent areas. However, it's not that which would be the use for an MBTA takeover, but more the (re)introduction of rapid transit (or rather a mixed rapid transit/commuter rail service, not too different from Sydney, Australia's former CityRail service and/or Cleveland's Rapid), which I honestly don't trust my (our?) State officials or anyone appointed by the State to provide through RIPTA even in OTL. (Look at how, for example, the Providence-Newport Ferry was cut because the subsidies ran out despite having heavy usage and popularity.) That's how I view it, as well as retaining rail service in Pawtucket (and maybe get rid of that ugly shade of brick on the train station).

If you don't trust RIPTA to handle this right, then the alt history should have Rhode Island not have good transit. In my fantasy I explicitly gave Atlanta as an example of a city with relatively bad transit, because I don't trust Georgia to be able to get this right.

As for the RIPTA-MBTA coincidence, the New York MTA was formed in 1968 and SEPTA was created in 1963. The 1960s were the era of regional reorganization: state governments were already familiar with white flight and fragmentation of agencies and tried to solve it by creating bigger regional organizations. But there would be no real reason to merge RIPTA and the MBTA, not with the distance between Boston and Providence.

RER and S-Bahn systems almost never go the distance of Boston-Providence. Providence is 70 km from Boston. Most RER lines, certainly all the early ones, go about 40 km out of Central Paris (see map with km points); ignoring the RER C spaghetti bowl, the farthest branch goes a bit over 70 km out of Chatelet but opened in 1995. The RER A and B branches all go about 40 km out or less. Boston-Providence would be viewed as intercity anywhere in Europe.

I can believe it, and it sounds about right. That almost has not changed even with the extension of service into South County (though I would honestly think they should increase service to TF Green, particularly as MassPort is trying to promote it and Manchester-Boston Regional Airport as alternatives to help alleviate congestion at Logan itself).

Nah, South County's a total waste of money. $350 million pissed on a few hundred train riders and parking garages. Tiny ridership, a line that intercity trains need clear of other traffic, stations in the boonies, speeds that are uncompetitive with driving. And now that airline traffic's decreasing, there's no real need for all those relief airports.

True. However, how would, say, LRT/commuter rail interlining work? Would it be similar or different to subway/commuter rail interlining? In Ottawa, the O-Train is LRT but using regular trainsets on a mainline track, so the possibility can be done.

Very different, although it's operationally similar to American light rail lines today. The two sets of standards I know of - German and Japanese - separate trams from mainline trains. Subways count as trams in Germany and mostly count as mainline trains in Japan. Trams need to be able to run on-street with all that entails; mainline trains need to run in mixed traffic with intercity and freight trains. Karlsruhe has special trains that meet both qualifications, which I believe are very similar to American LRVs. Operationally North American LRT never shares tracks with mainline rail - the O-Train and RiverLine have time separation - but the stop spacing, the use of legacy ROWs and not streets, and the length of the lines is a lot more like German and French tram-trains than like trams.
 
The other more basic question is what should contributors actually write? I'd like to start by doing something about Vancouver, but I'm past a broad outline of points and it seems a but presumptuous to just write a full article along the lines of a Transport America feature. We should probably discus a convention if this is really going to be collaborative. Again, the wiki seems a decent option, especially to spare the forums a huge number of threads on specific components of this TL...

All that said, as I started off with, Im concerned the momentum on this might drop off in the transition from high level conception to creating a specific fleshed out TL, so unless anyone objects I'm also going to start putting together an article formatted post about Vancouver in the forties, fiftie and sixtiess, talking about the salvation of the streetcars, the fate of the interurbans and the start of the trolleybus system. I'm thinking a finished product along the lines of the post about Detroit I linked to a ways back, but will also be thinking about ways to make discussion and revision of it easier than my posting a giant blob of text.

I know I'm nitpicking, but actually I can see Vancouver having worse transit in this ATL: the BC Electric line would have had some grade crossings and no access to the Dunsmuir tunnel, so it would've been slower and not automated. No automation = low frequency on weekends and in the evenings = low ridership.
 
I thought the POD was 1940s?

As far as I can tell, it is, yes.

If you don't trust RIPTA to handle this right, then the alt history should have Rhode Island not have good transit. In my fantasy I explicitly gave Atlanta as an example of a city with relatively bad transit, because I don't trust Georgia to be able to get this right.

Hmm, I'll have to give that a look.

As for the RIPTA-MBTA coincidence, the New York MTA was formed in 1968 and SEPTA was created in 1963. The 1960s were the era of regional reorganization: state governments were already familiar with white flight and fragmentation of agencies and tried to solve it by creating bigger regional organizations. But there would be no real reason to merge RIPTA and the MBTA, not with the distance between Boston and Providence.

RER and S-Bahn systems almost never go the distance of Boston-Providence. Providence is 70 km from Boston. Most RER lines, certainly all the early ones, go about 40 km out of Central Paris (see map with km points); ignoring the RER C spaghetti bowl, the farthest branch goes a bit over 70 km out of Chatelet but opened in 1995. The RER A and B branches all go about 40 km out or less. Boston-Providence would be viewed as intercity anywhere in Europe.

I know. That's why for a merged RIPTA-MBTA (NERTA, peut-être?), I'd organize it as:

*Rapid transit for Boston and Providence. Rapid transit is already there for Boston, so all that's left is maintaining existing service and maybe even expanding it (now, if we can get a North/South Rail Link done early enough, that would be a big help; expand it and have it classified as a mainline railroad by the FRA and it gets better because then Amtrak - or whatever its equivalent is in TTL - can use it). For Providence, it would be more of a challenge because by 1964, it's been at least a decade since trolleys last ran down city streets (for any city or town in Rhode Island, in fact), so it would have to start from scratch. It can, however, be done, mainly by replacing congested bus routes and, in some cases, grade-separating the lines from the roads, much like on the Green Line on Huntington Ave. in Boston. A perfect place for grade separation as an example is North Main St. in Providence, as it's much like that anyway. Another place which is similar is Armistice Blvd. in Pawtucket (which is literally several blocks away from my house!), which unfortunately means chopping down the trees along the median (but I'm sure that can be remedied). Newport could also do with a limited rapid transit service alongside the bus network, too, but there my knowledge gets murky as I'm not terribly familiar with it.

*Commuter rail for Boston and Providence. These would be separate systems. For Rhode Island it would be mixed with rapid transit for Providence, and hence the model here is not the RER but a hybrid of Cleveland's Rapid (for rapid transit) and Sydney's former CityRail (for rapid transit and commuter rail), hence making rapid transit akin to both a revival of the interurban and a modern tram-train operation. For Boston, as in OTL the *MBTA would just be subsidizing operations by other companies; Boston's commuter rail service in fact would be the closest to the RER. In effect, for Rhode Island the *MBTA/RIPTA is being more proactive since it has to start from scratch anyway.

*Boston-Providence intercity rail. By this same token, it could also be extended to Boston-Portland, particularly if the North/South Rail Link is put in place so as to allow through-rail operations in both North Station and South Station. Initially, as with Boston commuter rail, it would be subsidizing the operations of other companies. Bonus points here for relocating the rail tracks under Burnside Park and Kennedy Plaza/Exchange Place if/when Waterplace Park is constructed as per OTL, which would involve cleaning up the Woonsaquatucket and Moshassuck Rivers and reconfiguring Kennedy Plaza anyway.

*Commuter ferries. Boston already has those, so there it would be as per OTL. For TTL, it would be Providence-Newport-Block Island, which would be cheaper than rebuilding the Jamestown, Newport, and Mount Hope Bridges to accomodate rail service. As such, it's not rail service per sé, but it allows access to the Mainland rail network for residents of both Newport and Block Island.

The thinking here is that, per FDW's suggestion, instead of a single Amtrak running all passenger rail services, things would be regionalised along the lines of the JR Group, both in terms of intercity rail and regional/commuter rail. Because of this, it could be conceivable for a merged MBTA/RIPTA to cover Eastern New England in terms of rail service with a single company doing service in the NEC, Empire, and Keystone corridors (the key towards my Acela done right plan), plus a company doing purely long-distance rail travel (like the Lake Shore Limited or Coast Starlight, for example). Likewise, it would make sense for NYC and Boston to have RER-like commuter rail service, but Rhode Island with mixed rapid transit/commuter rail instead as it used to be in Sydney, because different markets have different requirements in terms of rail service.

Nah, South County's a total waste of money. $350 million pissed on a few hundred train riders and parking garages. Tiny ridership, a line that intercity trains need clear of other traffic, stations in the boonies, speeds that are uncompetitive with driving. And now that airline traffic's decreasing, there's no real need for all those relief airports.

Understandable, but TF Green Airport does provide important service for those of us who prefer not to use Logan.

Very different, although it's operationally similar to American light rail lines today. The two sets of standards I know of - German and Japanese - separate trams from mainline trains. Subways count as trams in Germany and mostly count as mainline trains in Japan. Trams need to be able to run on-street with all that entails; mainline trains need to run in mixed traffic with intercity and freight trains. Karlsruhe has special trains that meet both qualifications, which I believe are very similar to American LRVs. Operationally North American LRT never shares tracks with mainline rail - the O-Train and RiverLine have time separation - but the stop spacing, the use of legacy ROWs and not streets, and the length of the lines is a lot more like German and French tram-trains than like trams.

Hmm, very interesting.
 

FDW

Banned
I wrote a long reply a few days ago but it got killed in a BSOD.



I thought the POD was 1940s? Reagan riding the Shinkansen and getting impressed is really implausible, for the following reasons:

1. Reagan was a right-wing populist, and right-wing populism is anti-rail. In Switzerland, the SVP is also anti-rail and pro-road. Reagan's own political convictions would matter less than the coalition backing him; compare his opposition to Prop 6 with his administration's inaction on AIDS. The movement behind him was pro-road because Cars Are For Real Americans. Moreover, the US political system is such that the only conservative movement possible after the collapse of the postwar elite consensus was right-wing populist with elements from both religious conservatism and right-wing liberalism.

Reagan was a New Deal Democrat until around the second Red Scare, so I'd actually say that his views are rather flexible. I should point out that butterflies in Politics at the macro level (Mainly around the civil rights movement) shift around the political landscape in a way that preserves the post-war consensus for another 20 years, before collapsing in a more dramatic fashion than OTL.

2. Postwar America was the richest country in the world, and had no reason to import ideas from elsewhere. In the 1960s, American technology was putting people on the moon. The idea of malaise and of the need to learn from other countries only started in the Carter administration. With today's way of looking at things we can trace American relative decline to the postwar era, but in the postwar era people didn't think that way.

3. Japan in the 1960s was still a middle-income country. Americans viewed its exports as cheap and shoddy, same way they view Chinese exports today.

Also, half of the money California currently has for HSR is federal. It has several billion more on hand to match any other potential source of funding, but does not have the funding yet.

I know it sounds somewhat implausible, but the point of this timeline is less telling something absolutely plausible and more assembling a "wish list". I'm merely "assembling" the "wish list" in a funny manner.

This is what I mean when I say there's a difference between fantasy for the future and an alt history retro-fantasy. The entire case for Tehachapi over Tejon is service to Palmdale and the possible connection to Las Vegas; this is why LA County pushes the Tehachapi detour so hard right now. But in 1980, Lancaster and Palmdale had 60,000 people between them, vs. 300,000 plus suburbs today. Nobody would have cared about serving Antelope Valley. Nor would anyone have cared about serving Las Vegas, which had half a million people in the entire metro area then.

The decision to do Tehachapi over Tejon was less a result of Las Vegas wanting in and more a result of trying to get the freight railroads to buy in increasing freight capacity going between the coastal ports and the East coast, though Nevada barging in certainly tipped the balance in favor. (The Air Force liking the freight idea helped too)

I explicitly gave Atlanta as an example of a city with relatively bad transit, because I don't trust Georgia to be able to get this right.

By the standards of TTL's United States certainly, but It'll be better than OTL. I envision them being the largest metro area in the United States without HSR (the second largest will be Denver).

Very different, although it's operationally similar to American light rail lines today. The two sets of standards I know of - German and Japanese - separate trams from mainline trains. Subways count as trams in Germany and mostly count as mainline trains in Japan. Trams need to be able to run on-street with all that entails; mainline trains need to run in mixed traffic with intercity and freight trains. Karlsruhe has special trains that meet both qualifications, which I believe are very similar to American LRVs. Operationally North American LRT never shares tracks with mainline rail - the O-Train and RiverLine have time separation - but the stop spacing, the use of legacy ROWs and not streets, and the length of the lines is a lot more like German and French tram-trains than like trams.

San Diego and Newark also share tracks with mainline freight trains, though they also use time separation.

And yeah, North American LRT system OTL are generally rather close to the concept of Tram-trains. I also tend to look at them as kind of being watered down versions of Japanese suburban rail.
 
Reagan was a New Deal Democrat until around the second Red Scare, so I'd actually say that his views are rather flexible. I should point out that butterflies in Politics at the macro level (Mainly around the civil rights movement) shift around the political landscape in a way that preserves the post-war consensus for another 20 years, before collapsing in a more dramatic fashion than OTL.

One Possible way to preserve the Post war consensus would be to avoid, or reduce the Vietnam war. perhaps with an end to the war int he late 1960s, or even an avoidance of the conflict completely
 

FDW

Banned
One Possible way to preserve the Post war consensus would be to avoid, or reduce the Vietnam war. perhaps with an end to the war int he late 1960s, or even an avoidance of the conflict completely

Which does happens TTL, there also isn't a Cuban Revolution either.
 
Which does happens TTL, there also isn't a Cuban Revolution either.

Which means something still needs to be done about Batista, preferably keeping him as far away from power as possible once the 1940 Constitution is finished.
 

FDW

Banned
Which means something still needs to be done about Batista, preferably keeping him as far away from power as possible once the 1940 Constitution is finished.

Batista serves his OTL term (since the POD is 1942), but doesn't launch his coup in 1952. (or run for the presidency)
 
I know I'm nitpicking, but actually I can see Vancouver having worse transit in this ATL: the BC Electric line would have had some grade crossings and no access to the Dunsmuir tunnel, so it would've been slower and not automated. No automation = low frequency on weekends and in the evenings = low ridership.

Certainly early on you have a point, but there's definitely going to be grade separated entrance to the core at some point shortly after the highway fight (no, it won't be Dunsmuir if for no other reason than full size LRV's aren't going to fit double stacked). At the same time I'd disagree that grade crossings have all that much of a detrimental affect on line speed. If they did Calgary wouldn't perform nearly as well as it does. As for frequency, well, no, it won't be Skytrain like, but that's hardly a prerequisite for good ridership anywhere else, I see no particular reason Vancouverites would be so much more sensitive to frequency. As far as the shared right of way goes, I'm looking for some maps from the era to play with details, but creating a private right of way extension at least to Main wouldn't be hard at all (possibly with a very short stretch of remaining mixed traffic on Commercial), and getting across False Creek is then the only obstacle to a fully PROW route into the terminal on Hastings.

In fact my thinking is that the Central Park Line ends up looking an awful lot like C-Train (how this might feed back into C-Train I'm not sure, but I doubt there's much influence on Edmonton where from my understanding they really were thinking in terms of heavy rail and happened to stumble into light by way of off the shelf equipment, overhead power collection and cost savings associated with grade crossings). I'm thinking that by the early 80s there is a Central Park Line operating urban frequency service with the San Jose version of the ALRV (the CLRV having been picked up for the city system) on OTL's ROW from New Westminster's terminal to the end of the right of way at Commercial, continuing on a new right of way built in the 50s into the back of the terminal on Hastings. This probably isn't going to be a permanent arrangement, with some kind of tunnel probably appearing eventually, but I'm not at all decided on specifics, and am imagining it broadly as an Expo related project at the earliest, possibly as some kind of replacement for OTL's Skybridge.

In the longer run there are some interesting possibilities, but that's even more tenuous right now. First thing I'm actually working on is figuring out what actually happens to preserve the system, and what the end product is into the 60s. If anyone has sources for maps of Vancouver in the early post war period they'd be a great help.

In any case, what Vancouver is going to end up with is a suburban light rail system of pretty conventional nature, but evolving out of a first generation interurban, along with an inner city streetcar system. Between the headstart and lower cost there's definitely going to be more rail than with Skytrain, though some of the out lines might eventually start looking more like commuter rail than an urban system, and the streetcars are definitely going to have a lot of the same issues as in Toronto. The trolleybuses will still exist, albeit slightly reduced to make room for the streetcars. Whether this is better or worse is, quite frankly, not a judgement I feel like making. It's the kind of value judgement that leads to endless circular arguments in terms of deciding the direction of real projects and is quite frankly hopeless in terms of a fictional timeline (sorry, IRL transport planner coming out here :rolleyes:).
 
I know. That's why for a merged RIPTA-MBTA (NERTA, peut-être?), I'd organize it as:

*Rapid transit for Boston and Providence.

Do two separate cities ever merge their local rapid transit operations, let alone in different states? Tokyo and Yokohama don't, Seoul and Incheon don't, New York and Newark don't.

Besides, why would a city the size of Providence even have a subway? I know there were plans in the 1920s, but the 1960s weren't the 1920s.

It's just too implausible.

*Commuter rail for Boston and Providence. These would be separate systems. For Rhode Island it would be mixed with rapid transit for Providence, and hence the model here is not the RER but a hybrid of Cleveland's Rapid (for rapid transit) and Sydney's former CityRail (for rapid transit and commuter rail), hence making rapid transit akin to both a revival of the interurban and a modern tram-train operation.
First, the Cleveland Red Line is 31 km end to end, and goes suburb-downtown-suburb, so the actual distance it goes out of the center is more like 15-20 km. Second, I'm not bringing up the RER as a model, but as a sanity check.

CityRail, besides not connecting two different cities but one city and its unusually far-flung suburbs, has a special property that MBTA-RIPTA doesn't: it's all in one state.

The thinking here is that, per FDW's suggestion, instead of a single Amtrak running all passenger rail services, things would be regionalised along the lines of the JR Group, both in terms of intercity rail and regional/commuter rail.
Nobody regionalizes intercity service like this. No, not even Japan: the formation of the JRs was part of a privatization process, in which JNR was chopped down to more manageable size by private investors. In the US, either the intercity trains would've stayed private (if your POD is early enough to allow for profitable passenger rail) or they'd have been taken over by the federal government.

And there's a reason why it's so. Intercity trains form national networks, or close to national networks. They cross state boundaries, and sometimes need to go through states without making major stops. The Downeaster doesn't serve the parts of New Hampshire that need service the most. That's why even federal states like the US, Germany, Switzerland, and Canada nationalized intercity trains instead of letting their subnational entities take over.

Understandable, but TF Green Airport does provide important service for those of us who prefer not to use Logan.
I can totally see Rhode Island building a link in an ATL, but it would be 100% useless, just like in OTL. There's a very good way of getting to T. F. Green: it's called cars. Providence doesn't have the congestion, the parking difficulties, or the large non-airport transit system to make transit even vaguely competitive. Today's MBTA service is so infrequent and slow that it gets practically no ridership. You can improve service - either in OTL or in an ATL - but that doesn't make it competitive with driving.

Of course, transit agency splurging on comically underperforming airport links is very far from a US-only problem. I can see this happening in an ATL, just like in a country in OTL with generally solid transit investment you still get airport links with an order of magnitude less ridership than originally predicted.

Reagan was a New Deal Democrat until around the second Red Scare, so I'd actually say that his views are rather flexible. I should point out that butterflies in Politics at the macro level (Mainly around the civil rights movement) shift around the political landscape in a way that preserves the post-war consensus for another 20 years, before collapsing in a more dramatic fashion than OTL.

The Southern racists were New Deal Democrats back then, too. Remember, 60% of the US voted for FDR, and that was when most black people were disenfranchised.

More broadly, right-wing populism the way we know it is a postwar creation. We can see this rightward move in the SVP or the Social Credit Party, and in the US we can see this by comparing how rural areas voted in 1936 and how they vote today (or even in 1980). A lot of ideas that the right-wing populists could accept in the 30s as Good for Normal People became characterized as communism by the postwar era, and even when they weren't, they were characterized as Good for Deviant People. Economic growth ensured that by the postwar era, the median person was middle-class and not working-class. The robber barons became a distant memory, and the postwar consensus ensured that the new rich people would be celebrated as national heroes.

The decision to do Tehachapi over Tejon was less a result of Las Vegas wanting in and more a result of trying to get the freight railroads to buy in increasing freight capacity going between the coastal ports and the East coast, though Nevada barging in certainly tipped the balance in favor. (The Air Force liking the freight idea helped too)
Freight doesn't use HSR; for the purposes of freight, it doesn't matter where HSR goes. Consider the following:

1. American heavy freight runs at low speeds and high axle loads, such that any track-sharing with fast passenger trains is impossible. This isn't Swiss fast freight we're talking about.

2. The HSR line would not be a base tunnel, but rather have significant grades, even if they're 1.5-2% and not 3.5%. Freight dislikes these. The new Cajon Pass track actually increased the total line length and reduced curve radius in order to reduce the ruling grade.

3. When the D&RGW tried running fast freight, it was absolutely pummeled by the oil crisis; when it bought Southern Pacific, it went with SP's slow, low-cost approach. Electrification would've forestalled it, but before 1973, nobody was thinking about electrification over thousands of km of freight mainline. Even if your POD ends up making electrification look better, it's really unlikely anyone would electrify a mainline early.

4. Interstates were built for both trucks and passenger cars. I-5 still goes over Tejon.
 
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