The New Transport America: A Collaborative TL

Yeah, one of my intents is for American Rail to be stuck in the dark ages TTL.

Thanks for the laugh. :D

All I know is that Rhode Island is probably bustituted, but eventually the State of Rhode Island took over the bus company in the late 1960s. However, I think it would be much better if the MBTA took it over instead with the State's blessing and support. I know it probably sounds odd, but the way I see is that if the MBTA encompassed both MA and RI from the get-go, it would make it easier to develop a commuter rail network (but that's me).
 

FDW

Banned
Thanks for the laugh. :D

All I know is that Rhode Island is probably bustituted, but eventually the State of Rhode Island took over the bus company in the late 1960s. However, I think it would be much better if the MBTA took it over instead with the State's blessing and support. I know it probably sounds odd, but the way I see is that if the MBTA encompassed both MA and RI from the get-go, it would make it easier to develop a commuter rail network (but that's me).

I meant to say the opposite there. But while there won't be too many more Streetcar system's being saved TTL, one thing that this TL will likely end insuring is that Trolleybuses ITTL are far, far, more common then they are OTL.
 
I meant to say the opposite there. But while there won't be too many more Streetcar system's being saved TTL, one thing that this TL will likely end insuring is that Trolleybuses ITTL are far, far, more common then they are OTL.

Well, AFAIK the bus company in RI (the United Transit Company, which according to Wiki apparently operated both bus and trolley networks - I would need confirmation for that, since AFAIK the UTC was all-bus) is eventually going to go anyway. However, I don't know if I'm projecting the current situation onto past events, but Rhode Island being Rhode Island maybe an outside agency less prone to local corruption and Mafia control (this is, after all, the age of the Patriarca crime family) would be better off supervising it. What is more, around the same time as in OTL when RIPTA was created, the MBTA was created by the General Court to inherit the MTA service (not ot be confused with New York City's MTA) and to expand service to more communities in the Greater Boston area as well as subsidizing commuter rail operations. Put two and two together, and it would make for a much better system IMO.
 

FDW

Banned
Well, AFAIK the bus company in RI (the United Transit Company, which according to Wiki apparently operated both bus and trolley networks - I would need confirmation for that, since AFAIK the UTC was all-bus) is eventually going to go anyway. However, I don't know if I'm projecting the current situation onto past events, but Rhode Island being Rhode Island maybe an outside agency less prone to local corruption and Mafia control (this is, after all, the age of the Patriarca crime family) would be better off supervising it. What is more, around the same time as in OTL when RIPTA was created, the MBTA was created by the General Court to inherit the MTA service (not ot be confused with New York City's MTA) and to expand service to more communities in the Greater Boston area as well as subsidizing commuter rail operations. Put two and two together, and it would make for a much better system IMO.

That doesn't contradict itself, Trolleybuses aren't Streetcars. (You might be confusing Trolleys and Trolleybuses (aka Trackless Trolleys) here)
 

FDW

Banned
Maybe, but IIRC trolleybuses have never existed in Rhode Island.

Wikipedia says otherwise. Apparently, Pawtucket and Providence both had systems that were connected to each other.
 
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Wikipedia says otherwise. Apparently, Pawtucket and Providence both had systems that were connect to each other.

:confused:

If that's the case, then that could become an MBTA Rapid Transit line in TTL. I knew of interurban systems existing in other areas of RI (most notably, to me at least because my mother originates from the northwestern area of the state, the Woonsocket and Pascoag Railroad), but not actual trolley systems.
 

FDW

Banned
:confused:

If that's the case, then that could become an MBTA Rapid Transit line in TTL. I knew of interurban systems existing in other areas of RI (most notably, to me at least because my mother originates from the northwestern area of the state, the Woonsocket and Pascoag Railroad), but not actual trolley systems.

Not Trolley as in Streetcar, Trolleybus:

Trolleybus4120.Harvard.agr.JPG


Like this example from Boston.
 
Not Trolley as in Streetcar, Trolleybus:

Yes, I know what those are. I'm figuring a conversion to rapid transit à la Green Line (or Cleveland's Rapid) if the MBTA takes over, which renders trolleybuses moot except for those areas where rapid transit is impossible. This rapid transit would also use existing rail lines as well, which would expand rapid transit outside Providence (of which, in reality, would be a mixed rapid transit/commuter rail service like Sydney's former CityRail due to the size of Rhode Island). Except Newport, which would be linked to Providence and Block Island via ferry.
 

FDW

Banned
Yes, I know what those are. I'm figuring a conversion to rapid transit à la Green Line (or Cleveland's Rapid) if the MBTA takes over, which renders trolleybuses moot except for those areas where rapid transit is impossible. This rapid transit would also use existing rail lines as well, which would expand rapid transit outside Providence (of which, in reality, would be a mixed rapid transit/commuter rail service like Sydney's former CityRail due to the size of Rhode Island). Except Newport, which would be linked to Providence and Block Island via ferry.

Trolleybuses don't make good Rapid Transit, they have trouble going above 35-40 mph.
 
Trolleybuses don't make good Rapid Transit, they have trouble going above 35-40 mph.

And it actually gets interesting. With the exception of the Providence/Pawtucket interurban trolleybus (which was a conversion of an existing streetcar system), both of them began in the 1930s and ended in the mid-'50s. So, from that point on, the entire network is bus-only. Rhode Island being Rhode Island, I can see much of that being more or less the same in TTL - which is why the MBTA would take over the last remaining bus companies in Rhode Island, such as the UTC, with consent from Smith Hill (either as an integrated part of the network or as a subsidiary that is basically the T in all but name). A good portion of the state is suitable for rapid transit anyway, as a conversion of congested bus routes.
 

FDW

Banned
And it actually gets interesting. With the exception of the Providence/Pawtucket interurban trolleybus (which was a conversion of an existing streetcar system), both of them began in the 1930s and ended in the mid-'50s. So, from that point on, the entire network is bus-only. Rhode Island being Rhode Island, I can see much of that being more or less the same in TTL - which is why the MBTA would take over the last remaining bus companies in Rhode Island, such as the UTC, with consent from Smith Hill (either as an integrated part of the network or as a subsidiary that is basically the T in all but name). A good portion of the state is suitable for rapid transit anyway, as a conversion of congested bus routes.

Actually I don't think that particular trolleybus network will survive TTL.
 

FDW

Banned
Which makes Rhode Island a perfect breeding ground for the (re)introduction of rapid transit post-MBTA takeover. :D

Though I should point out, Trolleybuses aren't operated as Rapid Transit that much, and I'm not going to treat them as such.
 
Not all ideas that could work today make sense as alt history, and vice versa.

Specifically, in the 1960s, there was no need for cross-state commuter rail in MA and RI. Boston and Providence were still two clearly separate metro areas. There were Providence suburbs in Massachusetts, but Providence was and still is the metro area with the best fit between state and metro area boundaries; today, with more sprawl than there was 50 years ago, around 80% of the Providence NECTA is in Rhode Island while around 98% of the state is in the Providence NECTA.

The Providence Line may look like commuter rail, but the connection from Boston to Providence (as opposed to the suburbs in between) is intercity in both distance and travel characteristics, much like New York-New Haven. For example, when I took the Providence-Boston trip on weekends, about 40% of the traffic seemed to originate in Providence itself, which on weekdays only contributes about 10-15% of the line's ridership; this high ratio of weekend-to-weekday traffic suggests it's used as a cheap intercity line.

Conversely, subway-commuter rail interlining would've worked amazingly well 100 or even 60 years ago, but today it's problematic, to say the least. The loading gauges are too different, proof-of-payment exists today so in New York at least* the fare payment systems would be different, there's the possibility of timed cross-platform transfers at new commuter rail stations, and commuter rail can plausibly run much faster than a subway ever could.

*Boston, Chicago, and Philadelphia can tear their faregates down and go POP even on the subway. They won't, and it's not critical that they do, but they could. With New York I'm skeptical that it's even possible - it's too crowded. POP costs scale with ridership and faregate costs scale with system size, so in very crowded systems faregates are better.
 

FDW

Banned
Not all ideas that could work today make sense as alt history, and vice versa.

True, but at the same time, never underestimate the possibilities of the unusual.

And BTW, what's your take on my take of California HSR?
 
Re your points, now:

The thing is, Reagan is a very different person TTL. With 40 years of divergence in play, the development of politics has gone somewhat differently. Reagan's molding himself less off of Richard Nixon in terms of intended policies and more after Nelson Rockefeller. And while President Kennedy does play a role in increasing Transit funding in the 1960's, the Kennedy increasing that funding is not John, but his older brother Joe Jr.

I really doubt it would make thaaat much of a difference. The Reagan victory over Carter is very vulnerable to butterflies coming from the hostage crisis, but little else is. To wit:

Postwar America had an elite consensus regarding the Cold War, race, economic policy, urban policy, and social policy. This consensus alienated many groups, both marginalized (women, blacks) and not so marginalized (ideological conservatives), leading to protest movements. Foreign policy was still governed by the Cold War Liberal consensus, which led to Vietnam; since the US was fighting a limited war and North Vietnam fought a total one, the US lost. The abuses committed during Vietnam led to a loss of trust in government, which led to Watergate and its aftermath. Carter was a reaction to that. Reagan was a reaction to Carter. Carter was identified with environmentalism and conservation, coming from the response to the oil crisis; Reagan was a reaction to that.

Moreover, Reagan embodied right-wing populism, which is strongly pro-car because Cars Are For Normal People. In Europe, too, national conservative and right-wing populist parties are pro-car and anti-transit. Thatcher had her famous utterance about bus riders being failures, but even in Switzerland, the SVP is against rail and for roads.

In a two-party system, nothing but right-wing populism else could unify the various center-right and right-wing forces, which include conservative-liberal, religious, hawkish, and racist elements, each of which thinks nasty things about the others. This is why we see the same politics crop up in the UK, Canada, and Australia. In Israel and France, we see somewhat of the same politics: the system allows more parties but the national politics clusters into two blocs, left and right, promoting populism in the right. French conservatives are more pro-rail than Anglophone ones, but their support of rail is limited to the flashy TGV, while they ignore the legacy network; and moreover, in France, both Chirac and Sarkozy come from a conservative-liberal or Orleanist tradition that positions itself in opposition to right-wing populism, which is stable because the two-round voting allows right-wing voters to vent frustration by voting FN in the first round. In Israel, too, there's an outlet for right-wing voters, and as a result the Likud rhetoric on economic policy emphasizes anti-populism more so than the rhetoric of the GOP and the British and Canadian Tories. But even in multi-party, multi-bloc systems, there were middle-class backlashes against policies aimed at helping the poor; for example, the backlash in multiple European countries, such as Germany, against comprehensive education.

The upshot is that there's no plausible way an alt-Reagan would've acted like Rockefeller. Rockefeller and his wing were very much the elite consensus of the 1950s and early 60s. That was dead, dead, dead. The welfare state seemed discredited because of rising crime (which was an inevitable result of job losses in inner cities due to urban renewal), the US felt humiliated on the international level after the inevitable Vietnam defeat and the oil crisis, and the stagflation that resulted from overenthusiastic guns-and-butter policies vindicated monetarism. With very different circumstances, within the span of a few years the UK elected Thatcher, the US elected Reagan, and Canada elected Mulroney.

Other than the hostage crisis, the only part here that's vulnerable to butterflies is the exact timing of the various failures of the postwar consensus. In OTL, the domestic policy regarding race failed first, leading to civil rights marches and then to the growth of the welfare state. This meant the Vietnam defeat happened on the watch of domestically progressive Democrats, which led to liberal fracturing and to the Nixon backlash. I guess you could do an ATL in which Vietnam happens under Nixon (r. 1961-9) and then Humphrey or someone like that gets to play liberal savior in 1969, but in such an ATL, stagflation and the oil crisis still happen and someone, Reagan or otherwise, gets to play conservative savior.

While you do have a point here, I think there are a few ways to get around this. Namely, bringing in Public ownership earlier could save some systems, or at least get them to the point where the Federal cash spigot opens and it's. Another one I'll talk about at the bottom.

I really doubt it would do much. Public ownership did not in fact make anything more efficient. I remember reading somewhere that US transit productivity steadily improved until public ownership; I do not remember the source, and it could have been Wendell Cox, so caveat emptor. If it wasn't Cox himself, it was a paper citing him on something.

What public ownership did was take over the large financial losses on postwar public transit (which mirrored prewar losses, but the transit operators could no longer use transit as a loss leader for property development or for electric power distribution). It didn't save anything. The subways and most of the els would have survived either way. The streetcars remained unpopular with drivers. Rob Ford even campaigned on killing the streetcars, but 2010 isn't 1955 and a Canadian mayor isn't as powerful as an American one.

Yeah, I think we'll do away with that regulation. (And others too)

How plausible would it be given a midcentury POD?

Essentially, the Federal Government decides to turn the technology used for BART into a "new standard" and effectively strong arms other cities building new rapid transit systems at the same time into also using the technology. And the 50's are actually a lull in terms of Transit investment, between a wave immediately after the Second World War, and another one starting during the Kennedy administration.

...why? This is reinventing the wheel, and imposing unreasonable constraints on cities coming solely from the small profile of the Transbay Tube. Nobody needs this. The US reinvents the wheel a lot when it comes to importing foreign technology, but in a midcentury POD, there's no importing; it's all continuous improvement of existing tech. No real reason to turn BART into a new standard when there exists the Red Line/BMT/IND/etc. standard.

No, by the present day it's Frequency and Reliability problems that are generally given as the reason. But between 1950 and 1990, the Key System was generally operated under the idea that it was going to be a Stop-gap until things like BART and later HSR made it obsolete. By the time both were done, there was too much public support for Rail service over the Bay Bridge for a tear out to even be considered at that point. Similar ideas take place in other American cities TTL, slowing down and eventually blunting entirely the Streetcar apocalypse.

Is this OTL or in the ATL? In OTL, the Market Street Subway was built concurrently with BART (and nobody cared about HSR until the 1980s). In the ATL, unless you're delaying the BART opening somehow, either the Key System drops the second BART opens, or the planners decide to be smart. In the latter case it's intentionally second line across the Bay, trading speed for the ability to branch and run in streetcar mode outside the downtown cores, and allowing BART to run to destinations other than Market Street and the Mission without branching too much. The idea that excessive branching is bad because it cuts frequency is very new, in popular discourse due to Jarrett Walker, but the concept that a subway shouldn't branch too much because of capacity reasons is apparently decades-old common wisdom among New York subway railfans.

At the risk of wanking:

Alt-subway-surface would be an interline of Muni on the Market Street Subway, roughly as in OTL except without Third Street, and the Key System in Oakland, serving multiple destinations in the East Bay such as Berkeley and Richmond. Then alt-BART would have a Y-shaped core, with a line going from each leg of the Y to the other legs, so that each leg can host full capacity of trains. One leg would start in the East Bay and cross the Bay to stop at Embarcadero and Montgomery, with cross-platform transfers with alt-Muni-Key. A second leg would go west along Geary. A third leg would swerve south to connect to the SP terminal and go along Caltrain. Each leg would have branches with less frequency: the Transbay Tube leg would branch in the East Bay roughly as in OTL but taking over commuter lines instead of running incompatibly with them, and the Geary leg would branch into an Outer Richmond line and a Golden Gate line taking over what is now SMART. The SP leg might not branch at all, or if it does it would be into a branch along the old mainline to Daly City, roughly along the route of BART today, and the current mainline using the Bayshore Cutoff.

Yes, the Y is wank-y. Yes, it's probably not something they'd design in the CBD-centric 1950s, because the route from the SP leg to the Geary leg skirts the SF CBD; plausibly it would not be a Y but a Transbay core with an early split into a Geary and an SP branch. Yes, the SP connection might require a larger and more expensive Transbay Tube to allow for the full height of mainline trains; plausibly it would run trains the same width as the mainline but with lower roofs.

And as for the short-list of cities that will keep their Streetcars TTL, that didn't OTL:

-Los Angeles
-San Diego
-El Paso
-Kansas City
-Chicago
-Detroit
-St. Louis
-Minneapolis
-Baltimore

I'll focus on LA: the Red Cars were a loss leader for property developers. They lost money the entire time, and LA was moving away from them during the war, once it grew into areas not served by the trains. It was already a car-oriented city in the 1920s because high income + low density + very fast population growth with relatively limited urban transit; according to Owen Gutfreund's 20th Century Sprawl, it achieved the critical threshold of 150 cars per 1,000 people first, IIRC in 1920. This created strong political pressure to get rid of the Red and Yellow Cars to give more room to drivers.

Postwar America is not the 2010s. Alt-postwar America could be pro-transit with a judicious POD, but it would not be what we recognize today as transit activism, interwoven with livable streets. The concept of human scale did not exist then, and urbanites were too disempowered to fight off urban renewal until it was too late.

About the best you could do is delay urban renewal in a few cities and then have the programs canceled when their failure in other cities was visible. This, according to Jane Jacobs, is why Canadian cities did not undergo the equivalent of white flight: Canada lags the US in social trends, so by the time its cities got around to building urban roads and urban renewal projects, the neighborhood activists had already learned the tactics of the freeway revolts. (She said what happened was that the failure of urban renewal in the US was evident, but I don't think it's quite true - after all, American urban power brokers still think urban renewal works. It's more likely that the protest movements underlying the freeway revolts just spread to the US earlier so they were more mature when the cities planned their freeways in Canada.)

However, LA was a large, rich city with a pro-road political culture. It also was built on an explicit rejection of the culture of both New York and San Francisco. It's implausible for the freeway revolt movement to be mature in LA when the Interstates (or their equivalents) arrive. In OTL, LA took longer than the older big cities to have freeway revolts (I believe the first was against the Century Freeway), although once they came, the more difficult political environment made it easy to slow down freeway expansion.
 
True, but at the same time, never underestimate the possibilities of the unusual.

And BTW, what's your take on my take of California HSR?

...I'm really not sure.

I don't mean this as a criticism - "I'm not sure it'd work :-/" - but as a statement that I'm not sure I have a strong opinion.

I want to say that an early California HSR line would be more likely to be LA-SF because SD has had more growth than the Bay Area. But a) in OTL Brown in fact planned to build LA-SD first in the 1980s, and b) an early line would've had an easier time building LA-SD because less sprawl but a harder time building LA-SF because lower ruling grade through the mountains. The first LGV already had 3.5% ruling grade, which is what California is planning, but I doubt the US would have been as forward-thinking in the 1970s and 80s. Postwar American rail practices still emphasized the low ruling grade of the mixed-traffic cutoff, and so the ruling grade on domestically-conceived HSR would've probably been low, in the 2% area. The Shinkansen uses 1.5-2% ruling grade through mountainous terrains, raising tunneling requirements; I am not sure why.

However, in an ATL, it's almost certain the Northeast would've had HSR before California. In OTL, the Metroliners averaged about 120 km/h end to end, marginally less than the Kodama. By the time the Metroliners started running the Hikari was averaging 160 km/h, which was unheard of elsewhere in the world, but more attention to the schedule would've led to similar improvements in speed in the Northeast in the 1970s. The schedules were sometimes very fast on paper, in the 140 km/h area, but the trains couldn't meet them, so Amtrak added buffer time, slowing the Metroliners back down. (The Acela's scheduled time from NY to DC today is more than that of the fastest Metroliners in the 1970s.)
 

FDW

Banned
I want to say that an early California HSR line would be more likely to be LA-SF because SD has had more growth than the Bay Area. But a) in OTL Brown in fact planned to build LA-SD first in the 1980s, and b) an early line would've had an easier time building LA-SD because less sprawl but a harder time building LA-SF because lower ruling grade through the mountains. The first LGV already had 3.5% ruling grade, which is what California is planning, but I doubt the US would have been as forward-thinking in the 1970s and 80s. Postwar American rail practices still emphasized the low ruling grade of the mixed-traffic cutoff, and so the ruling grade on domestically-conceived HSR would've probably been low, in the 2% area. The Shinkansen uses 1.5-2% ruling grade through mountainous terrains, raising tunneling requirements; I am not sure why.

I went LA-SF first because it's Reagan of all people, and not Brown that's proposing the plan in the first place, though the bulk of the construction takes place under Jerry Brown's administration TTL. Given that California is adopting the Shinkansen model whole hog, it'd be similar in the riling grade area. I think the lower ruling grade is because Shinkansen system is simply older and built at a time when HSR technology hadn't yet had an opportunity to be refined.

However, in an ATL, it's almost certain the Northeast would've had HSR before California. In OTL, the Metroliners averaged about 120 km/h end to end, marginally less than the Kodama. By the time the Metroliners started running the Hikari was averaging 160 km/h, which was unheard of elsewhere in the world, but more attention to the schedule would've led to similar improvements in speed in the Northeast in the 1970s. The schedules were sometimes very fast on paper, in the 140 km/h area, but the trains couldn't meet them, so Amtrak added buffer time, slowing the Metroliners back down. (The Acela's scheduled time from NY to DC today is more than that of the fastest Metroliners in the 1970s.)

You're right here, I've actually pegged (in agreement with others here) that the Northeast gets HSR first, albeit an inferior product at first compared to what's being built on the West Coast. Generally, the order in which different parts of the continent get HSR looks like this:

-Northeast (late 70's)
-California (early 80's)
-Canada/Main Street (Mid 80's)
-Chicago Midwest (Late 80's)
-Texas (Early 90's)
-Pacific Northwest (Mid 90's)
-Florida (Early 2000's)
-Central Mexico (Mid-Late 2000's)
 
I find it implausible that the US would import technology like this. The US is insisting on reinventing the wheel, today, when it's recognized it's lost all vestiges of rail expertise; in a high-investment ATL, it would have its closed internal market, like Japan does today.

However, I do think domestic US HSR standards would indeed have low ruling grades. Three cheers for extreme tunneling through Tejon Pass!
 
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