The New Roman Empire
- Thread starter Pamc
- Start date
Sounds great. Germany will become very heavily "Hellenized" I suspect, since Otto III was himself half Byzantine, and his son would be only a quarter Saxon. He's also an heir for Basil II, and a member of the Macedonian Dynasty. Can't wait to see where you go with this!
1005
The Emperor Basil II launches a campaign in the South Italy and Sicily and names the general Ioanes Kostinium to lead it. Otto III (now nicknamed The Greek) quickly gathers an army to help the Byzantine general. The Normans allied themselves with the remaining Lombards and fought a bloddy 10 year war ( Byzantine-Norman War), reaching to the treaty of Benevento where the byzantines gained all South Italy till Rome, possesion of the Emperor Otto III
The Emperor Basil II launches a campaign in the South Italy and Sicily and names the general Ioanes Kostinium to lead it. Otto III (now nicknamed The Greek) quickly gathers an army to help the Byzantine general. The Normans allied themselves with the remaining Lombards and fought a bloddy 10 year war ( Byzantine-Norman War), reaching to the treaty of Benevento where the byzantines gained all South Italy till Rome, possesion of the Emperor Otto III
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1010
The byzantine catepan of Southern Italy dies and the General Kostinium is selected to take his place. Meanwhile Sylveste II starts to give away some of his papal powers and give them to Otto III. One of those powers was the temporal power over Rome and in his last days of living he start to cut the power of the cardinals and now the major vote comes from the HREmperor.
The byzantine catepan of Southern Italy dies and the General Kostinium is selected to take his place. Meanwhile Sylveste II starts to give away some of his papal powers and give them to Otto III. One of those powers was the temporal power over Rome and in his last days of living he start to cut the power of the cardinals and now the major vote comes from the HREmperor.
Philip
Donor
Is this permitted under Canon Law? My guess is that is not. Even if it is, I think it rather unlikely that anyone in the West would accept Sergius as Pope. The Filioque dispute was heating up at this point. My best guess is that there would immediately be a rival pro-fillioque pope would immediately be elected. As soon as Otto leaves town, Sylvester III will be in trouble.
Even discounting Canon law, which technically wasn't formalized and compiled into a system of laws until the mid-12th Century, the Western and Eastern Churches had been growing further and further apart for several centuries by 1003. Even though the Pope and the Patriarch did not officially excommunicate each other until 1054, the vast differences between the two branches of Christianity would never have allowed the appointment of the Patriarch as Pope. The POD for this TL would have to be much earlier to allow for this event.
However, you are correct in that the HRE would have had a great deal of influence over the Papal election as it was not until 1059 that the College of Cardinals was created to reduce the influence of secular political leaders. In OTL, when Henry II occupied Verona in his continuation of Otto's war of conquest on the Italian peninsula, he was crowned King of Italy by the Archbishop of Milan, Arnulf II. Arnulf had also been sent by Otto in 1001 to Byzantium to escort Zoe to Rome. Therefore, we can safely assume that the two had a respect for each other. Following your TL, had Otto conquered Italy in 1002, he most likely would have been crowned by Arnulf. There is a good chance that Otto would have pushed for Arnulf to become Pope following Sylvester's death, rather than Sergius. This is more plausible and does not require a huge change to the history of the Church.
1011
A great riot in Rome is started by the citizens who viewed Sylvester as a bad choice to pope. Under pressure Otto decides to elect Arnulf II, Archbisop of Milan (and a personal friend) as pope under the name Romanus II
The people of Rome are apeased and some of the richest nobles throw lavish banquets in celebration. Romanus was a great choice but Otto won't enjoy it for long, now in obvious falling health
1012
Henry III (OTL Henry II, the Saint) was an obvious choice, but the nobles of HRE and the clergy liked him and in case of an election he would win but surprinsingly the emperor Otto recovered and was annoyed by this move. Gathering an army and with the backing of the pope Otto III attacks Henry III
in a small plain battle near modern day Unterthingau. The odds where even but Otto III was the better general and he defeated Henry III. Henry was then brought up in chains to Otto III who ordered his execution. Otto add to his personal titles the title of Duke of Bavaria
A great riot in Rome is started by the citizens who viewed Sylvester as a bad choice to pope. Under pressure Otto decides to elect Arnulf II, Archbisop of Milan (and a personal friend) as pope under the name Romanus II
The people of Rome are apeased and some of the richest nobles throw lavish banquets in celebration. Romanus was a great choice but Otto won't enjoy it for long, now in obvious falling health
1012
Henry III (OTL Henry II, the Saint) was an obvious choice, but the nobles of HRE and the clergy liked him and in case of an election he would win but surprinsingly the emperor Otto recovered and was annoyed by this move. Gathering an army and with the backing of the pope Otto III attacks Henry III
in a small plain battle near modern day Unterthingau. The odds where even but Otto III was the better general and he defeated Henry III. Henry was then brought up in chains to Otto III who ordered his execution. Otto add to his personal titles the title of Duke of Bavaria
Succession to the title of King of the Romans and Holy Roman Emperor was not technically hereditary, although there were several dynasties that occupied the positions for several generations. Before OTL Henry II, the HREs held enough power that they could designate their successors. Henry II could not because he died childless. Otto and Henry were actually relatively close; in OTL, Henry was coming to Otto's aid when he died in 1002. The formal Council of Electors, the German princes who selected the Emperor, was not formed until the 13th Century. This is the primary reason why the first few HREs were able to select their own successors. In OTL, Otto selected his older cousin, Henry. In TTL, he has a son, Constantine, who he would likely choose to be his successor. The unofficial electors would most likely approve Constantine once he came of age, and the early tradition of the Emperor choosing his successor would continue for longer.
However, considering the above, the electors would not have chosen Henry to succeed Otto before his death, and almost certainly wouldn't have approved as Emperor anyone other than Constantine. This assumes that Constantine, or more likely his Regents, could hold onto power in the Empire long enough for him to come of age. Your events of 1012 are unlikely due to this. Perhaps a scenario in which Herman III, Duke of Swabia, comes into conflict with Otto over the attempted departure of Swabia from the Empire in 1012 instead.
Hmmm... to the eyes of Byzantine court a son by Zoe and Otto would look half barbarian to them... I doubt that he would be accepted as an heir to Basil II... I guess that he would fell victim of a conspiracy soon...
1016
The Sicilian Muslims recongnizing that they were threathened by the Byzantine empire decides to attack their fortress of Rhegium. Following that the Emperor Basil II who was in middle of a campaing against the Bulgarians decided to ask for help in his brother-in-law Otto II. both of them agreed to an alliance ( the alliance was practically signed but this date was just when the official paper was signed) The armies of the HRE atacked from the north and found help in the greek population of the islands who saw this conquer as a liberation movement.
1018
Constantine, now aged 16 became a general in his father army and due to his capabilities quickly raises is reputation as a good general and a generous man. He don't hesitate in go to where the battle where thickest and he refuses the luxury of the palace by the tent.
The Sicilian Muslims recongnizing that they were threathened by the Byzantine empire decides to attack their fortress of Rhegium. Following that the Emperor Basil II who was in middle of a campaing against the Bulgarians decided to ask for help in his brother-in-law Otto II. both of them agreed to an alliance ( the alliance was practically signed but this date was just when the official paper was signed) The armies of the HRE atacked from the north and found help in the greek population of the islands who saw this conquer as a liberation movement.
1018
Constantine, now aged 16 became a general in his father army and due to his capabilities quickly raises is reputation as a good general and a generous man. He don't hesitate in go to where the battle where thickest and he refuses the luxury of the palace by the tent.
Otto III was half Byzantine himself, so I doubt very much that this would be the case, especially if young Constantine spends much of his time growing up in South Italy. He'll be no more a "barbarian" than Basil I was. However, I would expect problems if Constantine tries to rule the Eastern Empire together with the Western from Rome. The capital is going to have to be Constantinople, and Constantine will have to delegate authority in the West to someone.
1020
Finally Otto III dies and Constantine rises to power, taking even more greek atitude than his father. Basil II quickly looks at him as a possible heir as he is a army men and a good statesman.
1023
Constantine Holy Roman Emperor, succesefuly conquers sicily. After the war he converts all island to orthodoxy and had to suppress several revolts.
Finally Otto III dies and Constantine rises to power, taking even more greek atitude than his father. Basil II quickly looks at him as a possible heir as he is a army men and a good statesman.
1023
Constantine Holy Roman Emperor, succesefuly conquers sicily. After the war he converts all island to orthodoxy and had to suppress several revolts.
1025
Chocking news from the east, The emperor Basil II is dead and his heir is his younger brother Constantine VIII
1028
Constantine, HRemperor helps his grand father in a campaing in Siria against the Arabs and manages to recapture most of Palestine but don't capture jerusalem due to the dead of Constantine VIII . Constantine VIII in his death bed select his grandson Constantine as his successor.
1029
Constantine now Emperor Constanine IX of Byzantium and I of Germany tries to recapture jerusalem but before that he has to suppress several rebellions. one of the rebbelions wants to take him out from the HR throne and was led by the Duke of Saxony. After suppressing this rebellion he was attack in the east by an usurper, Romanos Argyros. This Usurper was captured and his eyes were removed and his body was thrown to the sea of marmara
Chocking news from the east, The emperor Basil II is dead and his heir is his younger brother Constantine VIII
1028
Constantine, HRemperor helps his grand father in a campaing in Siria against the Arabs and manages to recapture most of Palestine but don't capture jerusalem due to the dead of Constantine VIII . Constantine VIII in his death bed select his grandson Constantine as his successor.
1029
Constantine now Emperor Constanine IX of Byzantium and I of Germany tries to recapture jerusalem but before that he has to suppress several rebellions. one of the rebbelions wants to take him out from the HR throne and was led by the Duke of Saxony. After suppressing this rebellion he was attack in the east by an usurper, Romanos Argyros. This Usurper was captured and his eyes were removed and his body was thrown to the sea of marmara
1030
Even after this events a major revolt start and all of Holland and Friesland declared themselves free from the empire and quickly north lorraine follows them
Constantine I tied down as he was in the war against the arabs couldn't anwser the revolt.
1033
After making a peace treaty with the arabs, the emperor assembles an Huge army and departs to north Lorraine and manages to capture it. However Holand and Friesland resistence is thougher and Constantine has to make a peace treaty, creating the kingdom of Holland and Friesland.
The Emperor popularity downhills and plots start to appear
To reinvigorate his status he plans the most astounding of the conquers, the conquer o Jerusalem
1034
The most wonderful notice, Constantine managed to conquer Jerusalem and his popularity skyrocketed. The Arabs, shattered by the defeat arrange for a twenty year peace.
Even after this events a major revolt start and all of Holland and Friesland declared themselves free from the empire and quickly north lorraine follows them
Constantine I tied down as he was in the war against the arabs couldn't anwser the revolt.
1033
After making a peace treaty with the arabs, the emperor assembles an Huge army and departs to north Lorraine and manages to capture it. However Holand and Friesland resistence is thougher and Constantine has to make a peace treaty, creating the kingdom of Holland and Friesland.
The Emperor popularity downhills and plots start to appear
To reinvigorate his status he plans the most astounding of the conquers, the conquer o Jerusalem
1034
The most wonderful notice, Constantine managed to conquer Jerusalem and his popularity skyrocketed. The Arabs, shattered by the defeat arrange for a twenty year peace.
Hi long since the last update
I'm thinking of beggining this TL again but with another style, with more text and details like maps and tiny details. In a more bookish style ( to see what i'm talking read some updates from my other TL De Bello Parthico
What do you think?
I'm thinking of beggining this TL again but with another style, with more text and details like maps and tiny details. In a more bookish style ( to see what i'm talking read some updates from my other TL De Bello Parthico
What do you think?