The New Order: Last Days of Europe Thread II

[Zygmunt Stary]

They are nationalists.

What makes them nationalist?

Have you played them? They are pretty damn nationalist.

I have and I don't see anything nationalist in their regime.

They're Nationalist, I mean they care a lot about Russia.
I mean there's a different between being a Nationalist who love their own country and culture (Like Matkovsky and Bunyachenko) versus being an Ethnonationalist/Racial Nationalist who love their country and are obsessed with ethnic/racial purity (Like Rodzaevsky and Serov).

Caring a lot about country isn't nationalism though, it's plain old patriotism. And I wouldn't put Matkovsky in the same league as Bunyachenko, Matkovsky still russifies minorities, while Bunya demands only subservience to him.

 

[RiverDelta]

I mean there's a different between being a Nationalist who love their own country and culture (Like Matkovsky and Bunyachenko)

Honestly, that sounds really praiseworthy for a self-described fascist and a repressive dictator.

If you want a nationalist who loves his country and culture, go with Likhachyov of the Decembrists or Kharms or something.

 

[Introverted]

I have and I don't see anything nationalist in their regime.

Kemorovo is nationalist by its very nature. It is deliberately patterning itself after the Rus state founded by Rurik.
By design it is explicitly nationalist in nature.

Bunyachenko has nationalist elements despite his checkered history, namely in that it is focused on rapidly industrializing to unite Russia and will court USA and Japan in its efforts to industrialize to unite Russia and presumably square off against Germany.

What exactly do you look for when looking for a "Nationalist"?

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Kemorovo is nationalist by its very nature. It is deliberately patterning itself after the Rus state founded by Rurik.
By design it is explicitly nationalist in nature.

Bunyachenko has nationalist elements despite his checkered history, namely in that it is focused on rapidly industrializing to unite Russia and will court USA and Japan in its efforts to industrialize to unite Russia and presumably square off against Germany.

What exactly do you look for when looking for a "Nationalist"?

How is medieval LARP nationalist? If someone in Britain had started LARPing as Anglo-Saxons that person would be nationalist by default?

Is industrializing nationalist? Zhukov/Tukh/Bukharina/Sablin also do this, are they nationalist?

A nationalist is a person who espouses either cultural or racial supremacy of one's own nation.

 

[Kingfish Chris]

How is medieval LARP nationalist? If someone in Britain had started LARPing as Anglo-Saxons that person would be nationalist by default?

Is industrializing nationalist? Zhukov/Tukh/Bukharina/Sablin also do this, are they nationalist?

A nationalist is a person who espouses either cultural or racial supremacy of one's own nation.

I would argue otherwise. Nationalist can mean several things.

In the case of Nation-States:
"Identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations."

Or for the case of secessionist movements in say Quebec or Scotland.
"Advocacy of or support for the political independence of a particular nation or people."

 

[Obern]

How is medieval LARP nationalist? If someone in Britain had started LARPing as Anglo-Saxons that person would be nationalist by default?

Is industrializing nationalist? Zhukov/Tukh/Bukharina/Sablin also do this, are they nationalist?

A nationalist is a person who espouses either cultural or racial supremacy of one's own nation.

Both Bunyanchenko and Kemerovo support the cultural and military-political superiority of Russians in the world. What's wrong?
If we talk about sub-ideologies, then Bunyanchenko can be defined as national republicanism (republic, not democracy).

Sablin, Bukharina and Zhukov cannot be nationalists, they are obvious internationalists.

Racial superiority is not characteristic of Russian nationalism, I mean in Russia there has never been a policy of "purity of blood" because of the huge size and cohabitation with the small nations of the Volga region and the Finno-Ugric peoples of the north.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

I would argue otherwise. Nationalist can mean several things.

In the case of Nation-States:
"Identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations."

Or for the case of secessionist movements in say Quebec or Scotland.
"Advocacy of or support for the political independence of a particular nation or people."

Well, politological definition of nationalism includes hostility to other nations.

Both Bunyanchenko and Kemerov support the cultural and military-political superiority of Russians in the world. What's wrong?
If we talk about sub-ideologies, then Bunyanchenko can be defined as national republicanism (republic, not democracy).

Sablin, Bukharin and Zhukov cannot be nationalists, they are obvious internationalists.

Racial superiority is not characteristic of Russian nationalism, I mean in Russia there has never been a policy of "purity of blood" because of the huge size and cohabitation with the small nations of the Volga region and the Finno-Ugric peoples of the north.

How do they espouse cultural superiority of the Russians while they don't give a shit about anything but loyalty to the state?

Yeah, I brought them up to combat the idea that industrialization is nationalist.

Well, there were plenty of people who ignored that for example IOTL both Velimir (Yemyelanov) and Dobroslav (Dobrovolsky) were Russian racial nationalist and in TNOTL Serov or Taboritsky are also Russian racial nationalists.

 

[Kingfish Chris]

How do they espouse cultural superiority of the Russians while they don't give a shit about anything but loyalty to the state?

Nationalist does not necessarily focus on Supremacy. There are a ton of different types of Nationalism.

Ever heard of the term Civic Nationalism?
"Civic nationalism, also known as liberal nationalism, is a form of nationalism identified by political philosophers who believe in an inclusive form of nationalism that adheres to traditional liberal values of freedom, tolerance, equality, individual rights, and multiculturalism."

And then there's State Nationalist.
"State nationalism is a variant of civic nationalism, often (but not always) combined with ethnic nationalism. It implies that the nation is a community of those who contribute to the maintenance and strength of the state, and that the individual exists to contribute to this goal. "

Also Left Nationalism too:
"Left-wing nationalism or leftist nationalism, also known as social nationalism, is a form of nationalism based upon national self-determination, popular sovereignty and left-wing political positions such as social equality. Left-wing nationalism can also include anti-imperialism and national liberation movements."

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Nationalist does not necessarily focus on Supremacy. There are a ton of different types of Nationalism.

Ever heard of the term Civic Nationalism?
"Civic nationalism, also known as liberal nationalism, is a form of nationalism identified by political philosophers who believe in an inclusive form of nationalism that adheres to traditional liberal values of freedom, tolerance, equality, individual rights, and multiculturalism."

Well, left-wing nationalism is usually present in the nations fighting for freedom (so it's more applicable to Moskowien than free Russia) and civic nationalism is not really nationalist.

 

[Kingfish Chris]

Well, left-wing nationalism is usually present in the nations fighting for freedom (so it's more applicable to Moskowien than free Russia) and civic nationalism is not really nationalist.

I would describe Bunyachenko and Kemerovo as State Nationalists. The Nation being a Community of People whose goals are to "contribute to the maintenance and strength of the state, and that the individual exists to contribute to this goal. "

 

[chankljp]

Also dropped in the Chinese language thanks to a partnership with the CN-TNO community:

TNO开发日志#27：致瞬息万变之物，及亘古不变之物

Introduction介绍Welcome to the dev diary for the State of Guangdong. My name is Kuzunoha - one of the two co-team leads for the State of Guangdong on the team, alongside OPAsian. We want to give you…

zhuanlan.zhihu.com

(I'm sure the only one here who would be able to truly appreciate it in any capacity would be @chankljp, but the folks on this thread might as well know anyway.)

Just a few quick thoughts:

(1) Love the fact that the Chinese translation team actually translated the dialogue spoken by the characters into spoken Cantonese, and done a good job at it as well (A nice detail that, for obvious reasons, will not be able to get carried over to English). They did something similar with the first China dev diary, in that some users had translated the dialogue for when a teacher invited a kid living in Shanghai to attend the new school that was opened, he spoke his line not only in Shanghainese, but period and social-class accurate Shanghainese as well.

(2) According to one of the comments left by a Chinese user, it was claimed that the lead writer for Guangdong is in fact a Japanese expat that lives and works in Hong Kong. Hence their ability to capture the atmosphere and social dynamics of the city once things have been taken up a notch due to the PoD. Does any know if that is true?

(3) I was going to complaint about how the name 'State of Guangdong' wasn't really a good choice as it does not make sense. Since if the Japanese had wanted to create an artificial colonial state and give it SOME fig leaf of historical justification, they could have named it 'Nanyue' (南粤), as a reference to an actual historical state that once existed in around the same region.... But upon reading the dev comments about how Guangdong is NOT supposed to make sense, and stand as a reflection of blatant Japanese exploitation and desire to weaken China however possible.... This 'not making sense' suddenly does make sense in-universe.

(4) ...Lets just say that for the Mainland Chinese users on Zhihu that have commented on the dev diary, there were comparisons to real life Hong Kongers and Taiwanese people with our 'artificial, twisted colonial identifies', comments on racism against Mainland Chinese people by RL Hong Kongers', and quite a few users hoping that General Long Yun's NPA can invade the place, burn it to the ground, and kill everyone (Yes, yes, 'Not all Mainland Chinese TNO players'... Blah, blah, blah.).

 

[Impirius]

I don't know why,but this gives me the most hype.

 

[chankljp]

I don't know why,but this gives me the most hype.
View attachment 710796

With the mechanic of Guangdong 'field testing' weapons via sending in volunteers to fight in proxy wars, I am predicting that there will be tones of events showing soldiers getting killed due to their prototype gear suffering from all manners of unforeseen design flaws and malfunctions, while the eggheads and boffins working for the mega-corps dispassionately take notes on their after action reports on making modifications.

 

[DracoLazarus]

Well, left-wing nationalism is usually present in the nations fighting for freedom (so it's more applicable to Moskowien than free Russia) and civic nationalism is not really nationalist.

Then do you believe there is no such thing as French nationalism ?

 

[Whiteshore]

With how TT cut the annexation of Kazakhstan (except for Tabby's insanity), leftist Russias which proclaim the USSR (or in Zhdanov's case, the Federation of Soviet Socialist Republics) once they reunify Russia should instead proclaim the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic post-reunification. Reforming the USSR should IMO be TNO 2 content with the RSFSR's proclamation being at the end of TNO 1.

 

[Gukpard]

With the mechanic of Guangdong 'field testing' weapons via sending in volunteers to fight in proxy wars, I am predicting that there will be tones of events showing soldiers getting killed due to their prototype gear suffering from all manners of unforeseen design flaws and malfunctions, while the eggheads and boffins working for the mega-corps dispassionately take notes on their after action reports on making modifications.

Assuming Guandong survives until modern day, would it develop an separate national identity?

 

[ThirdyLovesAH]

I don't know why,but this gives me the most hype.
View attachment 710796

Now, this is very interesting..... Sony producing weapons

 

[Introverted]

Assuming Guandong survives until modern day, would it develop an separate national identity?

Assuming it achieves reform + beats Manchuria? Probably. It already has a proto-identity in the Zhujin which seems to be the middle-class composed of collaborators who are prosperous enough.

Assuming it does not become a megacorp cyberpunk dystopia or China does not annex it back when Japan has another economic collapse/Japan does not nationalize it for monies.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Then do you believe there is no such thing as French nationalism ?

Not all French nationalists were civic (Maurras for sure wasn't).

 

[Introverted]

Now, this is very interesting..... Sony producing weapons

"Adaptable for both Japanese and Chinese ammunition"

Seems like it would sell better than its competitors given that it can be converted to use existing ammo quite easily. Would be profitable if China and Japan have a conflict with each other or in need for a lot of guns as they both could use the guns to supplement existing weapons.

Seems limited in its ambition though seeing as its only difference from other guns is ammo interchangeability and a three shot grenade launcher attachment.


Matsushita seems to be trying to get a lightweight gun that shoots flechettes according to the picture high capacity + rapid fire + low recoil + probably has armor piercing capabilities given the flechettes.

Probably more expensive that the other guns to produce, probably going to have issues regarding maintenance due to lightweight materials + expensive ammo due to custom flechette ammo


Fujitsu is using intermediate ammo so probably has decent recoil and acceptable range for modern warfare + focus on scopes allows for advantage during nightime engagement and would really help in the forests/counter-insurgency that Japan often fights in.

Probably really heavy compared to the other two not to mention that its main selling point (scope) will either make or break the gun.

Interesting sub-system, not sure how they would implement the costs and benefits within the TNO system of other CPS States buying the gun.