The New Order: Last Days of Europe Thread II
- Thread starter SirHalifax
- Start date
brooklyn99
Banned
So, Heydrich is getting a rework in V&J. Curious to see what that will entail.
Shame that Paraguay didn't make the cut for IE.
Paraguay is too violent for that. It might be reworked along with AB or Burgundy.
(The comment above is a joke, please don't consider it official).
Are you a South American content developer? Will the Nazis somehow oversee the drug cartels in Colombia, Mexico and El Salvador? Klaus Barbie in real history helped create drug cartels in the 70s of the 20th century.
It would be interesting to see it at TNO. Nazis are drug dealers.
https://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-...0d73abb9e_5e825cbec312bf0a386f758f/scale_1200
I'm a consultor for Brazil, and my greatest contribution apart from pointing out some fixes was to guarantee that Vargas had a beautiful white homburg hat in his pic.
I don't know about other countries. In the case of Brazil there won't be any Nazi led cartel.
Stalin deserves to be in the inner circle of Hell, along with Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Leopold III, and others of their ilk.Stalin = Hitler.
Are you a Canadian resident? Perhaps you have a distorted view of the Stalin era, based on Red Alert, HOI, TNO. They say that Stalin / Yagoda / Kaganovich are bad guys, but they are tough nuts, fighters for world socialism.
This is not true. In essence, there is no difference between Stalin's and Hitler's. Stalin was the first to use concentration camps before Hitler, what difference does it make if you end up in Auschwitz or Kolyma? Both here and there bullying, hunger and death await you.
Hitler exterminated on racial and ethnic grounds. Stalin carried out genocide on the basis of class.
Here read just one of the thousands of cases of the utter hell of the Stalinist USSR.
Cannibal island in the USSR
Nazino tragedy - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Stalin / Yagoda / Kaganovich are incredibly damned people. There is nothing positive about them. The fact that he did not plan to destroy all the Russians does not change anything. It's like comparing a rapist maniac and a murderous maniac. Like, the rapist is better - he doesn't kill ...
Satan gave Hitler a job when he hit Hell.
There is really no comparison when it comes to downright evil. Stalin and his cronies were brutal evil bastards, Hitler's Reich was ruled by demons.
They will make Heydrich try to rule over Germany rather than develop his sudden epiphany and off himself that is often mischaracterized as a redemption arc by people that were very critical of the narrative.
Honestly as someone that actually liked that storyline, it was probably for the best. I never saw it as a redemption arc and there were similar character arcs in fiction that were never framed as redemptive at all by their authors(Shadow Weaver from She-Ra and Nom Anor from SW: Legends both come to mind). However, without getting too much into chat levels of discourse, the times we live in, with the rise of the far-right in meatspace, combined with media bothsideism and obsession with nuance for the indefensible, various tropes about far right nuance being discredited, complicity in injustice or the myths of far-right efficiency being critically reevaluated, some "reform the fascist empire to be less godawful" storylines in fiction being critically reevaluated as well in light of today and more attention to outdated and propagandist tropes, the complete collapse of some of the more humanizing takes we had on pop culture regarding specific far right coded groups and characters(ie: Principality of Zeon) and more awareness of far right ideas being snuck in using tropes we previously didn't care about would have made this narrative unsustainable and prone to total scrutiny.
I played as much of Heydrich as I could, even before the second half of that plot it was a complete bastardization of his character and a disgrace to everyone who he killed in real life.
I love TNO, but Heydrich was a psychopath, not some misguided ideologue.
My interpretation of Heydrich draws a lot from Michael Wildt's 'An uncompromising generation' (a study of the leadership corps of the RSHA. Very good book), Ulbrich Herbert's biography of Werner Best (Heydrich's 2IC until 1940. Alas it doesn't seem like there's an English language edition, which is a shame because it's definitely worth a read) and Robert Gerwarth's Heydrich biography (the first proper scientific biography of the man that covers his entire life. You can find an article with quotes from the author here).
Based on these works Heydrich wasn't just the pure 'cold technocrat' (indeed, he seems to have had a temper...and if he'd just been a human calculator, he wouldn't have gotten himself kicked out of the navy) who was only out for power and didn't actually believe in Nazism. He came late to the Nazi movement, but then developed into a zealot, partly out of conviction, partly out of careerism and ambition. It's why he moulded the RSHA into a corps of National Socialist fighters who were supposed to combine fanatical zeal with efficiency and not just be a conventional secret police of 'desk perpetrators'. He knew what he was doing, and he wanted it.
He ruled pragmactically in Bohemia and Moravia but that's because his role there was different from that of say that of Hitler's minions in the General Government. It's not like Hitler sent him to Prague with orders to do one thing and then Heydrich tossed out the script and did something entirely different. Karl-Hermann Frank, State Secretary in Heydrich's administration and de facto the Nazi who ran the show after his boss died (Daluege's term as Protector was brief and Frick was a nonentity), supported and continued his work. Officially the Protectorate was still 'autonomous' at the time, with a Czech puppet cabinet subordinate to the Reich Protector, whereas in Poland the Polish state had been openly destroyed. Ergo it could not be ruled in the same way. Heydrich was supposed to assure that its industry remained productive to support the war effort, crush resistance and sabotage as well as facilitate the deportation - and in the process the murder - of the Jews. His long-term plans, as he said in a speech to German bureaucrats who belonged in his administration, were to completely 'Germanise' the region, which he came to view as an integral part of the Reich.
Incidentally, Gerwarth and Longerich (author of an excellent Himmler biography) also reevaluate his relationship with Himmler (neither views Himmler as scared of him, Heydrich was a player with a lot of power and his de facto second-in-command, but they were men with complementary talents who cooperated well and Himmler regarded Heydrich's death as a personal blow.).
So based on that I don't see Heydrich having his 'epiphany' about how destructive Nazism has been to Germany and then committing suicide like he does in TNO. He wouldn't have batted an eyelash at the destruction. The dead would've been 'necessary losses'. Mind you, real Himmler would also not have decided that he should not only nuke the whole world...but that he's too impure to live in the 'Aryan paradise', but I digress.
Based on these works Heydrich wasn't just the pure 'cold technocrat' (indeed, he seems to have had a temper...and if he'd just been a human calculator, he wouldn't have gotten himself kicked out of the navy) who was only out for power and didn't actually believe in Nazism. He came late to the Nazi movement, but then developed into a zealot, partly out of conviction, partly out of careerism and ambition. It's why he moulded the RSHA into a corps of National Socialist fighters who were supposed to combine fanatical zeal with efficiency and not just be a conventional secret police of 'desk perpetrators'. He knew what he was doing, and he wanted it.
He ruled pragmactically in Bohemia and Moravia but that's because his role there was different from that of say that of Hitler's minions in the General Government. It's not like Hitler sent him to Prague with orders to do one thing and then Heydrich tossed out the script and did something entirely different. Karl-Hermann Frank, State Secretary in Heydrich's administration and de facto the Nazi who ran the show after his boss died (Daluege's term as Protector was brief and Frick was a nonentity), supported and continued his work. Officially the Protectorate was still 'autonomous' at the time, with a Czech puppet cabinet subordinate to the Reich Protector, whereas in Poland the Polish state had been openly destroyed. Ergo it could not be ruled in the same way. Heydrich was supposed to assure that its industry remained productive to support the war effort, crush resistance and sabotage as well as facilitate the deportation - and in the process the murder - of the Jews. His long-term plans, as he said in a speech to German bureaucrats who belonged in his administration, were to completely 'Germanise' the region, which he came to view as an integral part of the Reich.
Incidentally, Gerwarth and Longerich (author of an excellent Himmler biography) also reevaluate his relationship with Himmler (neither views Himmler as scared of him, Heydrich was a player with a lot of power and his de facto second-in-command, but they were men with complementary talents who cooperated well and Himmler regarded Heydrich's death as a personal blow.).
So based on that I don't see Heydrich having his 'epiphany' about how destructive Nazism has been to Germany and then committing suicide like he does in TNO. He wouldn't have batted an eyelash at the destruction. The dead would've been 'necessary losses'. Mind you, real Himmler would also not have decided that he should not only nuke the whole world...but that he's too impure to live in the 'Aryan paradise', but I digress.
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Ok, so I'm trying to get the absolute worst ideology possible following TNO standards, as such I gonna try to combine every single evil thing to maximize damage and suffering.
For a.start, this ideology will be applied in Paraguay, under Adolfo Hirohito.
Second, it will follow neoliberal economics, to crush the dreams and the future of the people. So the economics minister will be Boris Yeltsin.
Third, it gonna follow Burgsys stratification to have the maximum repression possible. The interior minister is Heydrich.
Fourth: it is completely isolated in the world stage, so it gonna follow idiosyncratic Naziism diplomacy. The foreign minister is Oberlander.
Finally let's shove Peron somewhere since that helps.
Then there you have it. The Paraguayan neoliberal-peronist ordenstaat. The absolute worst place in the world to live after France.
For a.start, this ideology will be applied in Paraguay, under Adolfo Hirohito.
Second, it will follow neoliberal economics, to crush the dreams and the future of the people. So the economics minister will be Boris Yeltsin.
Third, it gonna follow Burgsys stratification to have the maximum repression possible. The interior minister is Heydrich.
Fourth: it is completely isolated in the world stage, so it gonna follow idiosyncratic Naziism diplomacy. The foreign minister is Oberlander.
Finally let's shove Peron somewhere since that helps.
Then there you have it. The Paraguayan neoliberal-peronist ordenstaat. The absolute worst place in the world to live after France.
Sure, but this isn't Hordak or Catra or Zuko or whoever, this is a real person who by every indication would have cared very little for the suffering he caused and would not have turned away from absolute power out of some sense of guilt. I'd have no problem with Heydrich's arc if he was a fictional character, but he was a real person, and he was the individual probably most directly responsible for the efficiency of the Holocaust. I think there is some sort of obligation to treat that sort of person how they actually were, rather than use them as a prop to make a point about Fascism.
Moreso Shadow Weaver or late S5 Walter White when putted against Jack’s neo nazis since he was never really written to be redeemable in the darth vader or catra sense. But your point still stands.
Also, given that Heydrich is rather smart, and theyre walking from the infamous sudden epiphany story. I think the country that can fit the “most cursed militarized North Korea wannabe by 21st century” test in tno will be ss-led Spartanist German Reich assuming Heydrich survives.
Or "better" yet, an europe under perpetual darkness as Heydrich will attack everyone once in the Reich's sphere like everyone else. Have it be juxtaposed with failed Red Italy revolution due to german intervention and whoo boy.
Or "better" yet, an europe under perpetual darkness as Heydrich will attack everyone once in the Reich's sphere like everyone else. Have it be juxtaposed with failed Red Italy revolution due to german intervention and whoo boy.
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Even if the Russian National Soviet Republic fits the "closest to North Korea in the world of TNO" test, which would make a Serov vs Heydrich fight (or a Amur vs Heydrich one) a fight on who is the better DPRK expy.
In the sense of "dystopian nightmare, but one likely to stagger along for a few decades much like the DPRK in real life as opposed to collapsing on its own weight".