That and the Nazis are developing an early Metal Gear to the turn tables of the war, only for the Boss and the Cobras to foil it. It would be cool to see the Cobra Unit during WW2.
The New Order: Last Days of Europe Thread II
- Thread starter SirHalifax
- Start date
I foresee a new wave of Kovner stans and apologists that miss the point of his character.
I...what? You do realize he's been changed from the earlier plans. Nakam is no longer the six million germans meme.
I mean I get your point and I definitely don't think people should stan the UPO in this but I think you're coming across as rather unsympathetic to a guy who had endure some absolutely horrific stuff.
brooklyn99
Banned
All well and good for Kovner to exact retribution on the Nazis. Moreso when he isn't killing the natives, whether directly or indirectly via razing Ostland down, which BTW would've been too stupid for Kovner to ever come close to realizing his plans (at least Huttig's Reichstaat would have an inheritedapparatus of oppression to work with before the whole thing comes crashing down). Nonetheless though, that he wholesale targets the settlers for death still makes stanning him the wrong call (Perhaps repatriating them back to Germany would be the right way, but that obviously isn't feasible). Particularly when there is also a truly righteous and more morally pure alternative in the faction of liberal reformists and native freedom fighters led by the Estonian-born Andreas Meyer-Landrut.
The grand scheme of things should also be taken into account. Once Kovner goes about his Nakam business and starts mass killing the settlers, the Germans are obviously going to go berserk and will absolutely wreck havoc on UPO-ruled Ostland, which would mean great detriment for the the natives who will be at the receiving end of the Reich's anger and their homes would get ravaged to hell even more as the Germans exact a wide-reaching bloody vengeance of their own for the slaughter of their people. Not even the GO4 can afford to act as the cooler heads here.
Worse still, you are handing the Nazis a genuinely moral imperative because they are obviously obligated to protect their people.
It therefore still stands that the only good outcome for the peoples and nations of Ostland in the short and long term would be a scenario where Landrut triumphs and Speer acquiesces to his liberal and inclusive way of running things there before the GO4 soft coup, where the rights and wellbeing of the populace are well established.
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I do note that it says he doesn't kill Meyer-Landrut, but not what he does do. Does he imprison him? Send him back to Germany where every leader but Speer are sure to kill him? That really goes for all the anti-Nazi Germans. He might not kill them himself, but if he sends them back to Germany that might as well be death for a lot of them.
A lot of things can happen to Meyer-Landrut between being captured by Kovner and being imprisoned/deported. There are ways to kill a man without ending his life.
Targai flat out said he's not torturing Landrut. Kovner doesn't like Landrut but I think the implication is clear he realizes Landrut isn't evil.
AeroTheZealousOne
Monthly Donor
The thing I never understood about the "six million Germans" bit is it sounds a tad... disproportionally low, especially considering that more are likely to have died, if not from the Holocaust itself, then by the godawful (to put it charitably) conditions of the work camps they were relocated to across Eastern Europe under the modern slave system designed by Albert Speer. The number, conservatively would probably be closer to the eleven million figure or higher in The Anglo/American - Nazi War.
Kovner's newer lore is much more grounded, and I really have to say I love how the TNO team is taking things in a more down-to-earth direction in its reworks of individuals and movements and nations.
I think it's clear that Giani is the closest we'll get to a Evola-inspired route owing to his links to Evola and is pretty much "how much can I get away with being an ultranat in the fascist ideology slot"(through given what's been said about Italy being the Komi of the Mediterranean, would not be suprised if he goes full ultranat at the end) and this is why he's the "worst" of the possible leaders.
He also apparently seeks to literally create 1984, trying to destroy all free will and force everyone to embrace fascism.
Suprised that Balbo is "less" evil than Muti through.
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brooklyn99
Banned
The devs have stressed that all Duces are firmly within the Fascist bracket, though with different sub-ideologies. The ultranat path may or may not have something to do with Dem Italy, since democratized Italy has been said to be pretty politically hectic.
Perhaps a year of lead situation where the Fascist Party remnants goes terrorist and radicalizes completly?
And the "moderate" wing of the radicalized fascist movement would be the natsocs.
It could be that the Holocaust while it is going on is at a slower rate than normal. Note that the Nazis ramped up the methods of genocide OTL when they were losing. In a world where they won maybe they would have tried out more slower methods of killing "undesirables".
brooklyn99
Banned
This might explain more on why Giani is the most worse Duce. The gist of his rulership seems to be that he is really efficient in mass indoctrinating the populace into total adherence to Fascism in a way that would make dissident viewpoints would be conceptually hard to grasp, likely assuring that Fascism would live for as long as Italy herself lives. Comparing to 1984 is fairly apt.
PS: Some more additional info on the Duces...
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chankljp
Donor
Something that I just realised about a Robert McNamara presidency for the US by the time of TNO2....
One of the most contravsoial things that McNamara did in OTL as the Secretary of Defense was launching Project 100,000. In which uneducated man suffering from severe learning difficulties, who often come from economically disadvantage backgrounds, and would not have passed the army's qualification test under normal circumstances since they belong in the bottom 10th-30th percentile range, ended up getting drafted to fight in Vietnam anyway. Resulting in them suffering from much highier causality rates and accidents compared to other American draftees.
Unlike what many have said in online memes, McNamara didn't do this because he hates the poor and wanted them to die in Vietnam as some sort of 'eugenics with extra steps' plan. Instead, he did so because he approch war from the perspective of a businessperson or an accountant: With him only looking at the numbers of US soldiers in the field, and blindly believing that as long as they are given enough hours of training and equipped with enough high-tech gear, they will be able to fight just as effectively as any other soldier... Which turns out to absolutly not be the case.
Here is the thing: In the context of HOI instead of the real world, McNamara's assumptions were 100% correct! In that a unit of manpower that was recruited under the 'Scraping the Barrel' conscription law will fight every bit as effectively as those that were recruited under 'volunteers only'. With the only down side being the extra time in training required and the hit to your economic output. Meaning that for vanilla HOI4, there really is no reason for you NOT to introduce conscription as soon as you are able to do so.
Hence, this will be an interesting opportunity for TNO to examine and deconstruct yet another HOI gameplay mechanic the same way that a Göring under Germany does with his War Plans and Ponzi scheme economy, by looking at the way in which wars cannot be fought by you simply min-maxing the numbers on a spreadsheet in a realistic setting, since humans are not robots or math equations. With those divisions that look great on paper just falling apart the moment that get deployed in a war zone.
One of the most contravsoial things that McNamara did in OTL as the Secretary of Defense was launching Project 100,000. In which uneducated man suffering from severe learning difficulties, who often come from economically disadvantage backgrounds, and would not have passed the army's qualification test under normal circumstances since they belong in the bottom 10th-30th percentile range, ended up getting drafted to fight in Vietnam anyway. Resulting in them suffering from much highier causality rates and accidents compared to other American draftees.
Unlike what many have said in online memes, McNamara didn't do this because he hates the poor and wanted them to die in Vietnam as some sort of 'eugenics with extra steps' plan. Instead, he did so because he approch war from the perspective of a businessperson or an accountant: With him only looking at the numbers of US soldiers in the field, and blindly believing that as long as they are given enough hours of training and equipped with enough high-tech gear, they will be able to fight just as effectively as any other soldier... Which turns out to absolutly not be the case.
Here is the thing: In the context of HOI instead of the real world, McNamara's assumptions were 100% correct! In that a unit of manpower that was recruited under the 'Scraping the Barrel' conscription law will fight every bit as effectively as those that were recruited under 'volunteers only'. With the only down side being the extra time in training required and the hit to your economic output. Meaning that for vanilla HOI4, there really is no reason for you NOT to introduce conscription as soon as you are able to do so.
Hence, this will be an interesting opportunity for TNO to examine and deconstruct yet another HOI gameplay mechanic the same way that a Göring under Germany does with his War Plans and Ponzi scheme economy, by looking at the way in which wars cannot be fought by you simply min-maxing the numbers on a spreadsheet in a realistic setting, since humans are not robots or math equations. With those divisions that look great on paper just falling apart the moment that get deployed in a war zone.
I mean Muti was pretty crazy and hot-headed, whereas Balbo was pragmatic and level-headed.
That said, Balbo strikes me as the sort of Speer (The Need for Reform) and Bormann (Upholding Mussolini's Legacy) combination, although, unlike Borman, he sees Reform as more necessary than maintaining the status quo. Whereas Muti, well he is obsessed with the radical nature of Fascism's Revolutionary and Futurist roots since he finds the current Fascist ideology to be "Slow" and "Boring" as opposed to "Fast" and "Exciting". That and Muti was a big thrill seeker who did a ton of activities like motorcycling, and he even wanted to fight in WW2 where abandoned his government post to join.
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