The New Order: Last Days of Europe Thread II
- Thread starter SirHalifax
- Start date
Extremely violent, disfunctional as a person, slaver and a pedophile.
Actually he's killing his own people by driving nails through their shins and having their bloated mickey mouse gloved hands tied by electrical wire and dumping them in a landfill.
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Look, he's a general, not the head of torture of political collaborators.
EsoNaz has been fused into NatSoc (and on that note, the GNS in Portugal and the IJA hardliners in Manchuria, along with their Stratocratic Corporatist sub-id, should be shifted to Ultranationalism to represent how their regimes have little ideological connection to German Nazism).
Honestly, speaking as someone who supports the germany reworks, I don't think removing Esoteric nazism is a good idea. Even with Himmler's diminished role in this, I think there are significant variations between the various branches of normal nazism such as the focus on the occult or desire to reorganize society along Spartanist lines. Unlike revolutionary Nazism, it did have more varied proponents and did branch off on its' own into its' own subideology.
And of course, as the fate of Burgundy is up in the air, we could say delete Burgundy and rewrite stuff to have Himmler be a viable Fuhrer candidate and give him the opportunity to live out his insane fantasies in power, especially since he was actually pragmatic when it comes to achieving his goals and he is in charge of Germany's nuclear doctrine. That creates a situation where some form of Esoteric Nazism could be internationalized on the world stage and Himmler could be a dangerous villain, roundabout-despite removing Burgundy-fulfilling one of the points that "Panzerites" want with the mod but in a way that is more true to the historical record. The differences would be here that he dosen't deliberately seek to destroy the world but more he "dosen't care" if the Himmler doctrine results in armageddon if it means the destruction of the "Plutocratic Judeo-Bolshevik stronghold of America".
The "it's whitewashing" argument never sat right with me either with regards to removing Esonaz as an ideology in general. If the argument is that "having a more insane ideology to the right of an already vile ideology on the far right whitewashes the latter" we might as well delete Nazism as well and make both Nazism and esonazism subideologies of Fascism regardless of existing ideological variations. Stuff like "Clean Wehrmacht" or "X makes Y look less horrifically evil" can be easily alleviated by showing just how bad the variants of normal Nazism can be without occult influence or spartan larp. At the end of the day, it's how we write these groups that matters and not ideological classification.
And of course, as the fate of Burgundy is up in the air, we could say delete Burgundy and rewrite stuff to have Himmler be a viable Fuhrer candidate and give him the opportunity to live out his insane fantasies in power, especially since he was actually pragmatic when it comes to achieving his goals and he is in charge of Germany's nuclear doctrine. That creates a situation where some form of Esoteric Nazism could be internationalized on the world stage and Himmler could be a dangerous villain, roundabout-despite removing Burgundy-fulfilling one of the points that "Panzerites" want with the mod but in a way that is more true to the historical record. The differences would be here that he dosen't deliberately seek to destroy the world but more he "dosen't care" if the Himmler doctrine results in armageddon if it means the destruction of the "Plutocratic Judeo-Bolshevik stronghold of America".
The "it's whitewashing" argument never sat right with me either with regards to removing Esonaz as an ideology in general. If the argument is that "having a more insane ideology to the right of an already vile ideology on the far right whitewashes the latter" we might as well delete Nazism as well and make both Nazism and esonazism subideologies of Fascism regardless of existing ideological variations. Stuff like "Clean Wehrmacht" or "X makes Y look less horrifically evil" can be easily alleviated by showing just how bad the variants of normal Nazism can be without occult influence or spartan larp. At the end of the day, it's how we write these groups that matters and not ideological classification.
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Another disapointing Brazil from a TNO submod.
Let me summon this up with two comments, one from Jack_satellite and other from me:
"If I did understand correctly, the military dictatorship didn't happen as it did in OTL, so the political landscape would be pretty different.
Lula and the PT gained traction during union strikes in the 80s and their fierce opposition to the dictatorship, while the PTB/Varguist left was exiled, after all parties were banned in the late 60s.
Without these circumstances, I doubt the PT would form and become what it became in OTL, Lula would probably join the PTB and the Varguist Old Left would be much more influential."
"Yeah, like, Lula is a side effect of the dictatorship, hell, he was promoted during the later stages of the dictatorship to prevent figures like Brizola to rise since he was seen by the right as a lesser evil since he's a neoliberal.
I really don't like the use of Lula as a president here, it is too unlikely."
This is part of a big phenomenon that I feel that for some reason people tend to ignore the TNO lore for Brazil and start doing their own thing, oh well.
Let me summon this up with two comments, one from Jack_satellite and other from me:
"If I did understand correctly, the military dictatorship didn't happen as it did in OTL, so the political landscape would be pretty different.
Lula and the PT gained traction during union strikes in the 80s and their fierce opposition to the dictatorship, while the PTB/Varguist left was exiled, after all parties were banned in the late 60s.
Without these circumstances, I doubt the PT would form and become what it became in OTL, Lula would probably join the PTB and the Varguist Old Left would be much more influential."
"Yeah, like, Lula is a side effect of the dictatorship, hell, he was promoted during the later stages of the dictatorship to prevent figures like Brizola to rise since he was seen by the right as a lesser evil since he's a neoliberal.
I really don't like the use of Lula as a president here, it is too unlikely."
This is part of a big phenomenon that I feel that for some reason people tend to ignore the TNO lore for Brazil and start doing their own thing, oh well.
Stretch
Donor
Saw this crossposted on The Owl House's official subreddit and thought this would fit (The Owl House, if it was written in a future scenario for TNO):
Masss murder of butterflies aside, I disregard any headcanon where Nazi Germany survives the 20th century but not the Japanese Empire
I want to express my concerns about the current state of TNO, as an disillusioned TNO fan that have followed this mod ever since the devlopment and its eventual release:
The devs of TNO mod are failing the most important thing every AltHist scenarios need to follow. Allowing historical figures to undergo an character development under the lens of fiction that most of the TLs here in this site (and even some HoI4 mods as well...esp. the "Redux" versions). All because in the name of "realism" and "keeping the historical figure true to history".
I understand the concerns for some devs of trying to cut the "excesses" of the scenario of this mod where Axis powers won WW2; but the fact that the Axis powers have won the war meant that it allowed personalities associated under that banner to expand their personal ideologies or personal experiences of those personalities that could help them or worsening their personalities that could help shape their personal ideologies that change the dynamics of the scenario. For better, or for worse.
Let me give you an perfect example of an historical figure that has undergone on an fictional character development that is based on the given scenario: Donald Rumsfeld (and to a lesser extent, Dick Cheney, but I will simply focus the person who likes to say "there are unknown unknowns" for this matter) of FLaG'72. In that TL, Rummy was roped in as part of Agnew Administration during the time the electoral chaos in American is still ongoing (before ending on a tragic way) and another round of escalation of conflict in Vietnam (which ended on an Status Quo in favor of South Vietnam) that witnessed the hectic atmosphere of administration's constant actions through unflitered smugness of Agnew's "experiences" (i.e: lack of experiences on any things) and an unbearable idea of Agnew's uncompromising idealism of his policies that saw the nation involved in more wars in the Middle East...while resulting in an economic turmoil that the experts of that TL would debate that the state of economy have either entered into depression or an recession that the state of an alt-world have experienced. Of course, all of the problems that I stated above are the work of Rummy and Cheney influencing actions that Agnew conducted, yet it uses positively as a way to developed Rummy's character into something we all know by the time the sequel was posted. A by-product of direct (and indirect) influences of the TL's world that changes the historical path that the historical figure presented in the TL into something we all know of, without the baggage of keeping the same historical character/personalities that were presented at the time the TL takes place intact.
I could say other perfect examples of that subject, such as an TL that saw JFK became an bloodthirsty dictator, or the characters involving in TDOR, etc.
This is why I am very concerned to the current state of TNO development in regards of writing an historical figures under the lens of fiction. If the devs continue into the blind path of keeping their historical ideas/personalities as it is on a scenario where their ideas that were they could not enacted in OTL because of things such as Axis lost WW2 or Napoleon defeated in Napoleonic Wars could be enacted with various results that depends on events or personal experiences by those historical figures that changes the historical figure from its OTL character into an fictional one shaped by the events that happened, then the story and the scenarios presented would not work out as a result.
The devs of TNO mod are failing the most important thing every AltHist scenarios need to follow. Allowing historical figures to undergo an character development under the lens of fiction that most of the TLs here in this site (and even some HoI4 mods as well...esp. the "Redux" versions). All because in the name of "realism" and "keeping the historical figure true to history".
I understand the concerns for some devs of trying to cut the "excesses" of the scenario of this mod where Axis powers won WW2; but the fact that the Axis powers have won the war meant that it allowed personalities associated under that banner to expand their personal ideologies or personal experiences of those personalities that could help them or worsening their personalities that could help shape their personal ideologies that change the dynamics of the scenario. For better, or for worse.
Let me give you an perfect example of an historical figure that has undergone on an fictional character development that is based on the given scenario: Donald Rumsfeld (and to a lesser extent, Dick Cheney, but I will simply focus the person who likes to say "there are unknown unknowns" for this matter) of FLaG'72. In that TL, Rummy was roped in as part of Agnew Administration during the time the electoral chaos in American is still ongoing (before ending on a tragic way) and another round of escalation of conflict in Vietnam (which ended on an Status Quo in favor of South Vietnam) that witnessed the hectic atmosphere of administration's constant actions through unflitered smugness of Agnew's "experiences" (i.e: lack of experiences on any things) and an unbearable idea of Agnew's uncompromising idealism of his policies that saw the nation involved in more wars in the Middle East...while resulting in an economic turmoil that the experts of that TL would debate that the state of economy have either entered into depression or an recession that the state of an alt-world have experienced. Of course, all of the problems that I stated above are the work of Rummy and Cheney influencing actions that Agnew conducted, yet it uses positively as a way to developed Rummy's character into something we all know by the time the sequel was posted. A by-product of direct (and indirect) influences of the TL's world that changes the historical path that the historical figure presented in the TL into something we all know of, without the baggage of keeping the same historical character/personalities that were presented at the time the TL takes place intact.
I could say other perfect examples of that subject, such as an TL that saw JFK became an bloodthirsty dictator, or the characters involving in TDOR, etc.
This is why I am very concerned to the current state of TNO development in regards of writing an historical figures under the lens of fiction. If the devs continue into the blind path of keeping their historical ideas/personalities as it is on a scenario where their ideas that were they could not enacted in OTL because of things such as Axis lost WW2 or Napoleon defeated in Napoleonic Wars could be enacted with various results that depends on events or personal experiences by those historical figures that changes the historical figure from its OTL character into an fictional one shaped by the events that happened, then the story and the scenarios presented would not work out as a result.
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I think you grossly overestimate the abilities of modders to make satisfying characters or """character arcs""" out of real people by going off-script.
That said I always thought it was goofy that Helmut Schmidt, who by all accounts was a devoted National Socialist right up to the July 20 trial where he got completely disillusioned, then joining the SPD after the war ended, would turn out to have virtually the same political orientation as he did in OTL.
That said I always thought it was goofy that Helmut Schmidt, who by all accounts was a devoted National Socialist right up to the July 20 trial where he got completely disillusioned, then joining the SPD after the war ended, would turn out to have virtually the same political orientation as he did in OTL.
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If I had a dollar for every Owl House/TNO Crossover I've seen, I would have 4 dollars. Which isn't a lot but it's 4 more dollars then I ever thought I would have.
Adding to this, Yazov and the KGB people under him were definitely amongst the nastier parts of the Soviet regime in our timeline but they certainly as hell never advocated the sort of insanity that they do in TNO vis-a-vis the obliteration of Germany.