The New Order: Last Days of Europe Thread II

[Kingfish Chris]

Also on the Ultranationalist sub-ideologies, what more would you add?
Already we have:

• Eurasianism (Gumiylov)
• Slavo-Aryanism (Hyperborea)
• Ultramilitarism
• Fundamentalism

What additional sub-ideologies would there be?
Here is what I thought of:

• Ultra-Fascism
• Ultra-National Socialism
• Radical Reactionarism
• Paramilitary Statism

Basically, the additional Ultranationalist sub-ideologies are Far-Right Ideologies that are crazier and more hardline than Fascism or National Socialism, but not to the level of insane like Esoteric Nazism.
Also, the Paramilitary Statism could potentially be scrapped since it could very well fall under Ultramilitarism. But the idea behind Paramilitary Statism is basically Radical Nationalist Paramilitary Groups taking power and declaring their own Radical Nationalist Regime under Paramilitary Rule. Also with Fascist Paramilitary Groups like the Basegi Black Brigades (Moskowien) and the OAS (France + Algeria), I did have an idea for a Fascist sub-ideology - Fascist Paramilitarism
Meanwhile, the Ultra-National Socialist ideology is sort of a tribute to old pre-release TNO with Ultranational Socialism being an ideology before BurgSys or EsoNazism. Basically, this ideology is made up of Hardline Nazis who think Hitler did not do enough, although they aren't as extreme to the extent of the SS' madness with their Esoteric Nazism.
Ultra-Fascists are on the other hand a more extreme Fascism taking influence from Julius Evola (They are more extreme than Giani's Fascist Mysticism) calling for numerous Ultra-Reactionary points and elements of esotericism.

 

[Twiggierjet]

Just my thoughts on warlords.

Novosibirsk

The path of Novosibirsk Pokryshkin should turn into a fascist one after the consolidation of Central Siberia. The backbone of the Novosibirsk Federation is mega-corporations and farmers. Doesn't it look like anything?
I would say that a fascist regime is very likely. Worker uprisings immediately after the unification of the region will require the strengthening of the dictatorship, censorship and special services.
Further, a non-ideological dictatorship is a very unattractive regime for most citizens, and given its main support base - corporations and farmers, the choice of fascist corporatism and nationalism is most likely in the TNO world. As an alternative to socialism and Siberian anarchism popular with Siberian workers.

Siberian corporations will need to fight and defend themselves against Japanese and American goods and products. This will require some protectionism.
The main goal of Novosibirsk is the unification of Russia, like that of other warlords.

Summarizing all of the above - at the regional stage, Novosibirsk should become a fascist corporation with the ideology of Great Russian nationalism (the unification of all lands in order to expand its economic market for the goods of megacorporations). No Hitler nonsense like Rodzaevsky.
Perhaps it will be called the Siberian Union, which emphasizes its regional identity and at the same time is an allusion to the Soviet Union (SU).

This is how a flag could be. Green and white Siberian colors and an aggressive symbol in the center.
View attachment 699377

Slogans - "Siberia - the place of the Russian future", "Novosibirsk - the new heart of Great Russia", "The Russian future is in Siberia" "New Russia was reborn in the heart of Siberia", "Kiev-Petersburg-Moscow-Novosibirsk. Russian history continues." Etc.

The main vibe is technocratic fascism with corporations (maybe Robocop or Mirror's Edge) + modern Belarus with President Lukashenko.

Shushkin in this case will be the leader of the street opposition with thousands of rallies against "Siberian fascism".
An increase in socialist activity is also very likely even after an unsuccessful workers' uprising.

I would argue that this is much better done by switching novosibirks over to despotism. Despotism also has a corporatism subideology (Guangdong in particular starts out as corporation controlled despotists despite being a puppet state to fascist Japan), and IMO Novosibirsk's whole "dictatorship that believes in nothing except their own survival and expansion" is a part of their charm and should stick around at least until after the 2nd West Russian War when the leadership starts looking around and going "now what?"

 

[Whiteshore]

Meanwhile, the Ultra-National Socialist ideology is sort of a tribute to old pre-release TNO with Ultranational Socialism being an ideology before BurgSys or EsoNazism. Basically, this ideology is made up of Hardline Nazis who think Hitler did not do enough, although they aren't as extreme to the extent of the SS' madness with their Esoteric Nazism.

Maybe it could be used for Remer?

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

Slavo-Aryanism (Hyperborea)

Well, now that SS membership request was dropped for being Eso-Naz, Slavo-Aryanism of Hyperborea should definitely be Eso-Naz subideology, it fits better the main theme of that than Taboritsky.
Heck, even the subideology bio says that adherents of Slavo-Aryanism think like radical parts of NSDAP but they replace "Germans" with "Slavs".

 

[Kingfish Chris]

Maybe it could be used for Remer?

Probably, although the Ultra-National Socialists in my head aren't full-on militarists, since these guys are made up of party ideologues rather than militarists who think more needs to be done for Nazi ideology.

 

[Obern]

It always amused me that Taboritsky was the first to create nuclear weapons among all Russian warlords.
--------------------------------
I have an assumption that complete misanthropes are going to Taboritsky's soldiers. Imagine a doomer from a poor country who is tired of everything. And then you have the opportunity to become an imperial stormtrooper in a gas mask and, under surrealistic delusional slogans, to take revenge on the whole society.

 

[Zygmunt Stary]

It always amused me that Taboritsky was the first to create nuclear weapons among all Russian warlords.
--------------------------------
I have an assumption that complete misanthropes are going to Taboritsky's soldiers. Imagine a doomer from a poor country who is tired of everything. And then you have the opportunity to become an imperial stormtrooper in a gas mask and, under surrealistic delusional slogans, to take revenge on the whole society.

Well, there are misanthropes, just your plain old Nazi collabs (Larionov and parts of ROA who followed Tabby), there are abducted children (Tabby was in charge of making Russian kids SS sabouteurs), there Tabby's partners from aforementioned abducting kids (Evtukovich, Melkikh), rest of ppl from other Komi far righters after Tabby takes power, sadists and psychopaths (Abbadon aka Anatoliy Motsny), the ppl who are just out there for pragmatism - the stormtroopers are diverse bunch.

 

[Kingfish Chris]

With a Heydrich rework coming in the future, I am predicting what his path would entail.

I could realistically see Heydrich's Reich not as an SS Spartanist State but rather more of an East German-style Mass Survallience State with the SS being involved in numerous domestic affairs, with the Gestapo becoming effective like the Stasi.
I mean I don't think he'd buy into the whole Spartanist dogma that the rest of the SS follows. While he is vicious and bloodthirsty having brutality ruled Bohemia, he was pragmatic and doesn't strike me as a total brainless Nazi ideologue. His path could involve the SS becoming less fanatical and dogmatic but more efficient and effective. (Likely becoming Ultranationalist or going National Socialist) His path could also show a parallel between Himmler's Fanaticism and Heydrich's Pragmatism. Heydrich basically turns the SS (And by extension the Gestapo) into an NKVD-style organization.

I can see life in Germany under the Heydrich become a cursed mix of Bormann, Speer, and Himmler.
Germans continue to enjoy living under the Status Quo going about their daily lives (Bormann), and the economy is liberalized to ensure the Reich's prosperity and survival (Speer), but despite all these, people live in constant fear and paranoia as the SS watches all (Himmler) under Heydrich. While you enjoy living your life under Heydrich, you suddenly realize that if you mess up or even do a slight dissent, a van full of Gestapo agents can easily pull up in your street, barge into your home and take you away to a Black Site or Labour Camp in the dead of night.

 

[Gentleman Johnny]

With a Heydrich rework coming in the future, I am predicting what his path would entail.

I could realistically see Heydrich's Reich not as an SS Spartanist State but rather more of an East German-style Mass Survallience State with the SS being involved in numerous domestic affairs, with the Gestapo becoming effective like the Stasi.
I mean I don't think he'd buy into the whole Spartanist dogma that the rest of the SS follows. While he is vicious and bloodthirsty having brutality ruled Bohemia, he was pragmatic and doesn't strike me as a total brainless Nazi ideologue. His path could involve the SS becoming less fanatical and dogmatic but more efficient and effective. (Likely becoming Ultranationalist or going National Socialist) His path could also show a parallel between Himmler's Fanaticism and Heydrich's Pragmatism. Heydrich basically turns the SS (And by extension the Gestapo) into an NKVD-style organization.

I can see Germany under the Heydrich become a cursed mix of Bormann, Speer, and Himmler.
Germans continue to enjoy living under the Status Quo (Bormann), and the economy is liberalized to ensure the Reich's prosperity and survival (Speer), but despite all these, people live in constant fear and paranoia as the SS watches all (Himmler) under Heydrich. While you enjoy living your life under Heydrich, you suddenly realize that if you mess up or even do a slight dissent, a van full of Gestapo agents can easily pull up in your street, barge into your home and take you away to a Black Site or Labour Camp in the dead of night.

I hope the new Heydrich update sees him actually be Führer and see what Germany would be like under his rule.

While I love the current Heydrich and think that it's a good story and well-written, I was pretty disappointed that it just kills Germany permanently.

 

[Kingfish Chris]

I hope the new Heydrich update sees him actually be Führer and see what Germany would be like under his rule.

While I love the current Heydrich and think that it's a good story and well-written, I was pretty disappointed that it just kills Germany permanently.

The SS Civil War path could be exclusive to the Burgundian SS path in that Heydrich depends on Burgundian support to the GCW, and this puts him in a precarious position leading to the power struggle between Heydrich and Himmler.

 

[Tolkiene]

Based on this made here, the Heydrich rework will not radically change his present path.

'The planned Heydrich rework does not intend to radically restructure his path, only updating gameplay elements and making the story line fit a bit more with his historical character.'

 

[Gukpard]

Tvtropes has a lot of influence, I see

Basically almost no one played as Shulgin so I would see people commenting that he was an autocrat or a black hundredist or a Ioannis Metaxas like figure, plus being extremely xenophobic, racist and borderline theocrat. After the information about him was updated in the TvTropes page I see people playing as him and correcting some misconceptions about his gameplay.

 

[panpiotr]

With a Heydrich rework coming in the future, I am predicting what his path would entail.

I could realistically see Heydrich's Reich not as an SS Spartanist State but rather more of an East German-style Mass Survallience State with the SS being involved in numerous domestic affairs, with the Gestapo becoming effective like the Stasi.
I mean I don't think he'd buy into the whole Spartanist dogma that the rest of the SS follows. While he is vicious and bloodthirsty having brutality ruled Bohemia, he was pragmatic and doesn't strike me as a total brainless Nazi ideologue. His path could involve the SS becoming less fanatical and dogmatic but more efficient and effective. (Likely becoming Ultranationalist or going National Socialist) His path could also show a parallel between Himmler's Fanaticism and Heydrich's Pragmatism. Heydrich basically turns the SS (And by extension the Gestapo) into an NKVD-style organization.

I can see life in Germany under the Heydrich become a cursed mix of Bormann, Speer, and Himmler.
Germans continue to enjoy living under the Status Quo going about their daily lives (Bormann), and the economy is liberalized to ensure the Reich's prosperity and survival (Speer), but despite all these, people live in constant fear and paranoia as the SS watches all (Himmler) under Heydrich. While you enjoy living your life under Heydrich, you suddenly realize that if you mess up or even do a slight dissent, a van full of Gestapo agents can easily pull up in your street, barge into your home and take you away to a Black Site or Labour Camp in the dead of night.

So basically a Nazi DDR?

 

[Kingfish Chris]

So basically a Nazi DDR?

Yeah, that's the most realistic Germany I can think of with Heydrich in charge.

 

[Obern]

Yeah. Heydrich was the Reich protector of Bohemia-Moravia. Basically, he built a consumer society for the Czechs without democracy and freedom.
You have food, you have work, you have no crime. But you must absolutely be loyal and cooperate with the Gestapo.
If you oppose the regime or deny Nazism - Heydrich sends you to a concentration camp.

Indeed, maybe a vibe from a mixture of China and the GDR with Nazi ideology will suit him.
I would see his propaganda like this - "Are you against the Gestapo and wiretapping? A normal person has nothing to hide."
I do not know what is the ideology of Oberlander in TNO now, but in that case, Heydrich may have something similar.

And spartanism for Heydrich is sheer nonsense. I rather picture Goebbels as a fanatic with his "quasi-communist" Nazism. This is Goebbels's ideology and could be the ideology of Spartanism.
PS I know that Goebbels is not in TNO.

 

[Impirius]

I do not know what is the ideology of Oberlander in TNO now, but in that case, Heydrich may have something similar.

Hes idiosyncratic Nazism wich is basically Speers reformism aimed directly to benefit the German racial pyramid.

 

[Obern]

If I were to develop TNO, I would make Hitler's heirs with the following ideological paths:

1) Bormann.
A complete continuation of Hitler's policy in everything.
Bormann himself is not interested in economics and social life, more focused on maintaining his power, intrigue and foreign policy.

Militarism, saber rattling, huge wunderwaffe mega-projects. In fact, the USSR in the early 80s.
Support - his supporters in the party and the Nazi military.

2) Goering.
Liberalization and Reformation of the Reich. The fat guy loves throwing parties and enjoying the luxury.
The role of "Kind Uncle Reich" who cares about the common people and removes the most unpleasant restrictions. In the military industry, I see his passion for aviation and, as a result, for space flights.
The Reich under him will lead in aviation innovations. Maybe he will introduce a full-scale jet civil aviation program to replace Hitler-Bormann super-trains.
A softer foreign policy, detente with the United States, Italy, and Japan. Conducting economic reforms.

The abolition of all pagan "innovations", the return of the Christian religion to the army. Weakening of racial laws ("I decide who is a Jew here"). Autonomy for the Eastern peoples.
Support - relatives, friends, the old Wehrmacht, the reformists, the Luftwaffe.

3) Heydrich.
This guy is obsessed with efficiency, pragmatism and control. Heydrich becomes a totalitarian dictator like Stalin. Purges of the political elite are being carried out. Heydrich does not need Hitler's system of struggle between departments. All important posts are filled with loyal performers with strict subordination - complete subordination to Heydrich.
Heydrich promotes a project of a radical ultranationalist "New Europe" - local Nazis should come to power in various white countries (Iron Guard, Spanish phalanx, SS RONA and the Viking party in Muscovy, SS Galicia in Ukraine, Vitushka in Belarus, Chesterton in England and etc).
Internal politics is presented in the form of a Nazi welfare state, where the system provides you with everything, but requires complete loyalty and compliance with the norms of a true Aryan.

The non-pagan part of the SS and the Gestapo are engaged in constant wiretapping, searching for those who disagree.
Foreign policy is an active espionage and ideological war with the USA and Japan. Heydrich sponsors the Ku Klux Klan and American Nazis from one pocket, the Black Panthers from another, the American radical left from the third, and Indian cultural and separatist groups from the fourth.

In Asia, he supports all rebel movements against Japan.
The goal is to unleash chaos, revolutions, and if possible - a civil war in the United States and the Great Asian War in the Japanese Empire.
Support - non-pagan part of the SS, Gestapo, syncretic Nazis, white ultranationalists.

4) Speer.
Why is it believed that he is a liberal and a reformer?
Speer, like Heydrich, is building a "New Europe", but less radical and ideological. Speer works with big businesses and mega-corporations. The guy is obsessed with architecture and infrastructure projects. Huge highways, highways are being built, cities are being rebuilt in the architectural style of Speer.
Speer's Reich massively uses the labor of Eastern workers and prison slaves.

Speer's policy is conservative and aimed at achieving economic growth.
To do this, he uses all goals, including slave labor on mega-construction sites.
In domestic politics, Speer aims to maintain the status quo and the economic integration of European countries into the German economy.
Support is from big business and party members loyal to it.

 

[Baron Steakpuncher]

4) Speer.
Why is it believed that he is a liberal and a reformer?

He is a reformer.... to what he believes his true vision of National Socialism is. He is in no way a liberal, he just works with some more moderate figures in the Reich.

 

[Obern]

I wonder when the developers will remove the CRAZY swim of Doenitz in the Crimea?

Why is he sailing there?
The Giblarter Strait is blocked by the Atlantropa dam. He will have to sail across the entire coast of Africa. Then ask the Italians to let his fleet pass through Suez. Further, the Bosphorus Strait turned into a river. Doenitz will have to ferry his ships for a long time, one ship at a time.
Finally, Doenitz arrives at his lake, where his fleet cannot hide from missiles or aircraft.

Why didn't Doenitz just overtake the fleet to Petersburg or Copenhagen?

 

[freivolk]

If I were to develop TNO, I would make Hitler's heirs with the following ideological paths:

1) Bormann.
A complete continuation of Hitler's policy in everything.
Bormann himself is not interested in economics and social life, more focused on maintaining his power, intrigue and foreign policy.

Militarism, saber rattling, huge wunderwaffe mega-projects. In fact, the USSR in the early 80s.
Support - his supporters in the party and the Nazi military.

2) Goering.
Liberalization and Reformation of the Reich. The fat guy loves throwing parties and enjoying the luxury.
The role of "Kind Uncle Reich" who cares about the common people and removes the most unpleasant restrictions. In the military industry, I see his passion for aviation and, as a result, for space flights.
The Reich under him will lead in aviation innovations. Maybe he will introduce a full-scale jet civil aviation program to replace Hitler-Bormann super-trains.
A softer foreign policy, detente with the United States, Italy, and Japan. Conducting economic reforms.

The abolition of all pagan "innovations", the return of the Christian religion to the army. Weakening of racial laws ("I decide who is a Jew here"). Autonomy for the Eastern peoples.
Support - relatives, friends, the old Wehrmacht, the reformists, the Luftwaffe.

3) Heydrich.
This guy is obsessed with efficiency, pragmatism and control. Heydrich becomes a totalitarian dictator like Stalin. Purges of the political elite are being carried out. Heydrich does not need Hitler's system of struggle between departments. All important posts are filled with loyal performers with strict subordination - complete subordination to Heydrich.
Heydrich promotes a project of a radical ultranationalist "New Europe" - local Nazis should come to power in various white countries (Iron Guard, Spanish phalanx, SS RONA and the Viking party in Muscovy, SS Galicia in Ukraine, Vitushka in Belarus, Chesterton in England and etc).
Internal politics is presented in the form of a Nazi welfare state, where the system provides you with everything, but requires complete loyalty and compliance with the norms of a true Aryan.

The non-pagan part of the SS and the Gestapo are engaged in constant wiretapping, searching for those who disagree.
Foreign policy is an active espionage and ideological war with the USA and Japan. Heydrich sponsors the Ku Klux Klan and American Nazis from one pocket, the Black Panthers from another, the American radical left from the third, and Indian cultural and separatist groups from the fourth.

In Asia, he supports all rebel movements against Japan.
The goal is to unleash chaos, revolutions, and if possible - a civil war in the United States and the Great Asian War in the Japanese Empire.
Support - non-pagan part of the SS, Gestapo, syncretic Nazis, white ultranationalists.

4) Speer.
Why is it believed that he is a liberal and a reformer?
Speer, like Heydrich, is building a "New Europe", but less radical and ideological. Speer works with big businesses and mega-corporations. The guy is obsessed with architecture and infrastructure projects. Huge highways, highways are being built, cities are being rebuilt in the architectural style of Speer.
Speer's Reich massively uses the labor of Eastern workers and prison slaves.

Speer's policy is conservative and aimed at achieving economic growth.
To do this, he uses all goals, including slave labor on mega-construction sites.
In domestic politics, Speer aims to maintain the status quo and the economic integration of European countries into the German economy.
Support is from big business and party members loyal to it.

Bormann = Breznev
Göring = Khrushchev
Heydrich= Deng/Xi
Speer = Deng/Gorbatchev