The New Order: Last Days of Europe Thread II

The curse of war communism in the western community is also greatly underestimated. War communism is when guys come to you with machine guns and say that you have to give up your property. If you disagree, they beat you up or take your wife, children, and parents hostage. Then you agree.
The fact that the WRRF is said to "practice war communism" IMO is why Samara and Vyatka are even able to recruit new soldiers (relying on Soviet soldiers who had been captured and white emigres only gets you so far) and have a modicum of popular support (otherwise, they would have been torn limb-from-limb by angry mobs), come to think of it.
 
TNO is a cool mod, but as a resident of Russia and Ukraine, I see some of its parts as funny and contrary to Russian reality.
My notes on Western Russia:

1) WRRF. It makes no sense for the Western Russian revolutionary front to be where it is. In general, I am amused by the warlords of the revolutionary front, the Divine Mandate, Vorkuta. Guys, these regions are on the same latitude as Alaska. And the climate is the same there. There is nothing there, no industry, no agriculture, no infrastructure. These regions live off food supplies from the south.

In 10 years of anarchy, the fighters of the revolutionary front will either die of hunger or desert to the south. Historically, the inhabitants of northern Russia (referred to in Russian as "Pomorie") have never supported the communists, because there was no serfdom and there was developed self-government due to the difficulty for the Petersburg authorities to control these cold, sparsely populated lands.

It makes sense to move the start of the WRRF to another location. For example, I would move it south to Orenburg and the Ural League replacing them. And Arkhangelsk would have made a free city (analogue of Orenburg).

Further. Zhukov. Lol.
Zhukov in the game is terribly far from the real person. Zhukov has never been a humanist and a supporter of any kind of liberalization. He was a cruel barracks fighter. He was famous for beating his subordinates with his fists. His other nicknames are "butcher general", "Stalin's butcher".
He is responsible for the tactics of pelting the Germans with soldiers' meat until the Germans run out of ammunition.
Further, after the war, Zhukov became comically famous for looting valuables from Germany. Stalin discovered that Zhukov had sent several trains to the USSR from Germany with expensive furniture, paintings, gold jewelry, aristocratic dishes, dozens of fur coats for his wife, and so on.
It was literally Soviet Goering. Lol.

His regime, based on its characteristics, is Soviet despotism with its moderate personality cult. The economy and social life will be stagnant. Only the army will develop. Zhukov himself will live the luxurious life of the general secretary. With resorts, aristocratic polish, personal servants, delicacies, perhaps trips to the United States and friendly states for entertainment.
See it as Brezhnev.

Tukhachevsky.
This guy is seriously underrated. He was a pagan and his views are closest to the term National Communism or Ordosocialism.

Here are his quotes:

"- No, just the opposite, I want to say that we, Russians, are all religious, but precisely because we have no religion. I am not a Christian," he stopped in front of a Catholic, "moreover, I even hate that Vladimir The Saint who baptized Russia, thereby giving it to the power of Western civilization! We had to preserve our crude paganism, our barbarism. Both of that and another. But wait, both will come back, I do believe in this! Saint Vladimir made us lose a few centuries, but that's all. "

Or here's a curious quote:

“Jews?” Tukhachevsky said mockingly, “Jews brought Christianity to the world. That's enough for me to hate them. And then the Jews are an inferior race. I'm talking about the dangers they can bring. You are a Frenchman for whom equality is - dogma, you cannot understand it. ”It is the Jews who sow their dangerous fleas everywhere, trying to instill in us the infection of civilization, giving everyone their morality of money - the morality of capital.
- Oh, I understand! Are you against capital ?? Fervak laughed, interrupting. "Are you a Russian socialist?"
“What a need for classification you have,” Tukhachevsky laughed, “but, first of all, all the great socialists are Jews, and the socialist doctrine, in fact, is a branch of world Christianity. I am not very interested in how the land will be divided between the peasants and how the workers in the factories will work. The kingdom of justice is not for me. My ancestors, barbarians, lived in a community, but they had leaders who led them. If you like, this is a philosophical concept. I hate Jews, socialists and Christians all together. There is also a big difference between me and the Jews. Most Jews love the power of money, but I despise money. "

If Tukhachevsky has the time and power to realize his fantasies, this is literally the red Velimir. Moreover, an interesting approach would be to make Velimir's root as one of the WRRF paths, i.e. Velimir could be Tukhachevsky's successor.
Tukhachevsky's views are a mixture of militarism, Marxism, nationalism, Russian paganism.


The curse of war communism in the western community is also greatly underestimated. War communism is when guys come to you with machine guns and say that you have to give up your property. If you disagree, they beat you up or take your wife, children, and parents hostage. Then you agree.
It's intriguing to read insight of the Russian Anarchy from a Russian (I assume you are a native Russian speaker?). Is there anything more you want to divulge on the other regions of Russia and the different warlords there?

Also, regarding Tukhachevsky and his apparent Pagan eccentricities. IIRC the developers of TNO think that all the neopagan stuff was fabrications stemming from Tukhachevsky's show trial by Stalin. In any case, it's strange that Tukh would speak scornfully of Socialism and how it is Jewish when he would eventually join up with the Bolsheviks. So it's likely that the man just had a change of beliefs (assuming he held them to begin with, since Stalin would have been incentivized to discredit Tukh's dedication to Socialism during the latter's show trial).
 
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Also, regarding Tukhachevsky and his apparent Pagan eccentricities. IIRC the developers of TNO think that all the neopagan stuff was fabrications stemming from Tukhachevsky's show trial by Stalin. In any case, it's strange that Tukh would speak scornfully of Socialism and how it is Jewish when he would eventually join up with the Bolsheviks. So it's likely that the man just had a change of beliefs (assuming he held them to begin with, since Stalin would have been incentivized to discredit Tukh's dedication to Socialism during the latter's show trial).
Or that Tukh was in his "edgy young man" phase, considering he made these comments as a POW in WW1.
 
TNO is a cool mod, but as a resident of Russia and Ukraine, I see some of its parts as funny and contrary to Russian reality.
My notes on Western Russia:

1) WRRF. It makes no sense for the Western Russian revolutionary front to be where it is. In general, I am amused by the warlords of the revolutionary front, the Divine Mandate, Vorkuta. Guys, these regions are on the same latitude as Alaska. And the climate is the same there. There is nothing there, no industry, no agriculture, no infrastructure. These regions live off food supplies from the south.

In 10 years of anarchy, the fighters of the revolutionary front will either die of hunger or desert to the south. Historically, the inhabitants of northern Russia (referred to in Russian as "Pomorie") have never supported the communists, because there was no serfdom and there was developed self-government due to the difficulty for the Petersburg authorities to control these cold, sparsely populated lands.

It makes sense to move the start of the WRRF to another location. For example, I would move it south to Orenburg and the Ural League replacing them. And Arkhangelsk would have made a free city (analogue of Orenburg).

Further. Zhukov. Lol.
Zhukov in the game is terribly far from the real person. Zhukov has never been a humanist and a supporter of any kind of liberalization. He was a cruel barracks fighter. He was famous for beating his subordinates with his fists. His other nicknames are "butcher general", "Stalin's butcher".
He is responsible for the tactics of pelting the Germans with soldiers' meat until the Germans run out of ammunition.
Further, after the war, Zhukov became comically famous for looting valuables from Germany. Stalin discovered that Zhukov had sent several trains to the USSR from Germany with expensive furniture, paintings, gold jewelry, aristocratic dishes, dozens of fur coats for his wife, and so on.
It was literally Soviet Goering. Lol.

His regime, based on its characteristics, is Soviet despotism with its moderate personality cult. The economy and social life will be stagnant. Only the army will develop. Zhukov himself will live the luxurious life of the general secretary. With resorts, aristocratic polish, personal servants, delicacies, perhaps trips to the United States and friendly states for entertainment.
See it as Brezhnev.

Tukhachevsky.
This guy is seriously underrated. He was a pagan and his views are closest to the term National Communism or Ordosocialism.

Here are his quotes:

"- No, just the opposite, I want to say that we, Russians, are all religious, but precisely because we have no religion. I am not a Christian," he stopped in front of a Catholic, "moreover, I even hate that Vladimir The Saint who baptized Russia, thereby giving it to the power of Western civilization! We had to preserve our crude paganism, our barbarism. Both of that and another. But wait, both will come back, I do believe in this! Saint Vladimir made us lose a few centuries, but that's all. "

Or here's a curious quote:

“Jews?” Tukhachevsky said mockingly, “Jews brought Christianity to the world. That's enough for me to hate them. And then the Jews are an inferior race. I'm talking about the dangers they can bring. You are a Frenchman for whom equality is - dogma, you cannot understand it. ”It is the Jews who sow their dangerous fleas everywhere, trying to instill in us the infection of civilization, giving everyone their morality of money - the morality of capital.
- Oh, I understand! Are you against capital ?? Fervak laughed, interrupting. "Are you a Russian socialist?"
“What a need for classification you have,” Tukhachevsky laughed, “but, first of all, all the great socialists are Jews, and the socialist doctrine, in fact, is a branch of world Christianity. I am not very interested in how the land will be divided between the peasants and how the workers in the factories will work. The kingdom of justice is not for me. My ancestors, barbarians, lived in a community, but they had leaders who led them. If you like, this is a philosophical concept. I hate Jews, socialists and Christians all together. There is also a big difference between me and the Jews. Most Jews love the power of money, but I despise money. "

If Tukhachevsky has the time and power to realize his fantasies, this is literally the red Velimir. Moreover, an interesting approach would be to make Velimir's root as one of the WRRF paths, i.e. Velimir could be Tukhachevsky's successor.
Tukhachevsky's views are a mixture of militarism, Marxism, nationalism, Russian paganism.


The curse of war communism in the western community is also greatly underestimated. War communism is when guys come to you with machine guns and say that you have to give up your property. If you disagree, they beat you up or take your wife, children, and parents hostage. Then you agree.
u should put this in mod feedback
 
This guy is seriously underrated. He was a pagan and his views are closest to the term National Communism or Ordosocialism.
Tukha's paganism was during his teenage edgelord phase. Everything the team has seen makes it clear he didn't really believe that as an adult.
 
It's intriguing to read insight of the Russian Anarchy from a Russian (I assume you are a native Russian speaker?). Is there anything more you want to divulge on the other regions of Russia and the different warlords there?

Also, regarding Tukhachevsky and his apparent Pagan eccentricities. IIRC the developers of TNO think that all the neopagan stuff was fabrications stemming from Tukhachevsky's show trial by Stalin. In any case, it's strange that Tukh would speak scornfully of Socialism and how it is Jewish when he would eventually join up with the Bolsheviks. So it's likely that the man just had a change of beliefs (assuming he held them to begin with, since Stalin would have been incentivized to discredit Tukh's dedication to Socialism during the latter's show trial).
Yes, I want to leave my notes on Russian warlords. I will go from west to east.

Due to the fact that the developers have never lived in Russia, much in TNO is quite absurd, it does not take into account the geography of Russian territories, its history and the mentality of the inhabitants.
In this regard, the inhabitants of Western countries are totally mistaken in the concept of Russian anarchism (SBA), for example.

Or that Tukh was in his "edgy young man" phase, considering he made these comments as a POW in WW1.

Bolshevik leaders are notorious for hiding their views until they gain power.

For example, Stalin was a loyal Leninist until he came to power. Then he led the country on his own course, abandoning the avant-garde and internationalism of Lenin. Lol, the Stalinist USSR was a Russian nationalist state, more so than the late Russian Empire. Towards the end of his reign, Stalin actually took the course that Serov presented at TNO. With the persecution of Jews (anti-Zionism, the cause of doctors) and disloyal peoples.

Khrushchev was a loyal Stalinist, but as soon as he came to power, he changed the Stalinist policy and began to develop a course that in TNO can be compared to Zhdanov's "ultravision", but in a softer version. Space flights, corn, turns of Siberian rivers, settlement of southern Siberia, development of science.
Also, the abolition of collective farm slavery, the issuance of passports to peasants, the abolition of gulags and mass repressions.

Tukhachevsky most likely simply hid his views so as not to become a black sheep and not to lose in the political struggle. In TNO, he came to power and can realize any of his youthful fantasies.
 
I doubt that with Luis Taruc; they're the more orthodox and reasonable PKP as opposed to the Maoist "rural strategy" types of the reaffirmist CPP. Taruc is also not necessarily hostile against the clergy and is far more conciliatory to them compared to the Cuban regime of OTL.

Also, IOTL, the PKP actually degenerated and made peace with the Marcoses after he initiated his Martial Law, precipitating the need to establish the CCP in the first place.

If anything, old guards such as him are more motivated in nationalistic (or at least self-preserving if you're cynical) realpolitik than ideology. As to why they did the purge? Well, the landlords are really out for their heads and would have made the already existential power struggle apparent either way.

To put it simply; Taruc turned out to be a sensible enough man to become an actual Christian Socialist in his later years.
 
So, yeah, what do you say about my idea that the forces of KONR and the White Army (or more accurately, the rank-and-file soldiers) are largely comprised of those people who have lost everything to the WRRF's idea of economic policy being practicing war communism and are willing to sell their souls for payback, especially as attrition draws down the original force of press-ganged POWs/angry White emigres the two start with? At the very least, I imagine the idea one can start their own private business or own their own land without the possibility their property would be confiscated "in the name of the people" to be something KONR and the Whites use to attract support (or at least grudging acceptance) for their cause as I doubt Vlasov and Vladimir III only rely on the men who accompanied them for maintaining power and I don't think "the Whites/KONR rule through sheer fear" cuts it.
 
In the Russian anarchy war communism isn't a special problem because everyone does it to varying degrees.
For Tukh it is because he makes it a full state policy in his revenge quest against Germany.
 

chankljp

Donor
With TBT now released, I would like to discuss the way that Japan now seems to be geopolitically throwing their weight around a lot more outside of the Pacific, in particular, when it comes to Africa. With the Pan-African/anti-colonial Cameroon being aligned with the Co-Prosperity Sphere with Japanese advisors training and supplying their military; And also over in Madagascar, in which if the indigenous Malagasy wins the civil war, they will become a full member/dependent of the Co-Prosperity Sphere.

Will be really curious about the implications of the Pan-African and anti-colonial movement being inseparably linked with the Co-Prosperity Sphere later down the line. With the Malagasy find themselves treated similarly to the Thais during WW2, with them being used as a sort of 'East Berlin' style showpiece for Japanese Empire's benevolence in liberating former colonies outside of Asia? Or would Tokyo not be able to keep it in their pants, and engage in the same type of resource extraction as they did in the Philippines? When it comes time for the Great Asian War, would the Japanese recruit African soldiers to fight against the Chinese, the same way that they had used Korean conscripts during WW2?

And if racial tensions got bad enough over in the US (Say, as a result of Wallace establishing universal segregation, Thurmond pulling a full reversal against RFK's efforts in expanding civil rights, or a Yockey Presidency).... Would the now (understandably) radicalized civil rights and black liberation movements embracing Imperial Japan and the Co-Prosperity Sphere as an ally and example of a 'colored nation' fighting against Western imperialism and white supremacy, the same way that some more radical elements of the OTL Civil Rights movement embraced Maoism or the Marxist-Leninism? Would there be American civil rights leaders fleeing to Japan as political refugees and be used by Imperial Japan as propaganda pieces showcasing the evils of the West?

Really look forward to when post-SAW Africa gets more content to explore these possibilities.
 
I will hint that not every single African leader agrees with Cameroon's specific version of Pan-Africanism or its very vanguardist attitude to unification, including some very well-known names from IRL who considered themselves Pan-Africanists. Which is why the WAA vs Cameroon conflict is a thing in TT.
 
So, yeah, what do you say about my idea that the forces of KONR and the White Army (or more accurately, the rank-and-file soldiers) are largely comprised of those people who have lost everything to the WRRF's idea of economic policy being practicing war communism and are willing to sell their souls for payback, especially as attrition draws down the original force of press-ganged POWs/angry White emigres the two start with? At the very least, I imagine the idea one can start their own private business or own their own land without the possibility their property would be confiscated "in the name of the people" to be something KONR and the Whites use to attract support (or at least grudging acceptance) for their cause as I doubt Vlasov and Vladimir III only rely on the men who accompanied them for maintaining power and I don't think "the Whites/KONR rule through sheer fear" cuts it.
This is a good idea. In real history, in the first months of Operation Barbarossa, hundreds of thousands of Russians, Ukrainians, Balts surrendered to the Germans, naively believing that the Germans are exactly the same as in the First World War and the German army is going to free them from the Bolsheviks. They are tired of the Stalinist policies, constant repression and collective farm slavery.
They knew nothing about the SS, concentration camps and nazi slavophobia.

In the TNO world, it can be assumed that the Russians, after the failure of the WRRF offensive, were simply tired of the war and they just wanted to return home.
The practice of war communism WRRF with the requisition of land, livestock, property is a good excuse why people went after the KONR and the white monarchists.
War weariness and the brutal policy of the communists, who take everything away for the needs of the war.
 
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With the Malagasy find themselves treated similarly to the Thais during WW2, with them being used as a sort of 'East Berlin' style showpiece for Japanese Empire's benevolence in liberating former colonies outside of Asia?
Especially as the Malagasy might emphasize their Asian/Austronesian heritage (especially as Madagascar was settled from Borneo) in their nationalism as part of how Malagasy nationalists here are pro-Japan.
 
And if racial tensions got bad enough over in the US (Say, as a result of Wallace establishing universal segregation, Thurmond pulling a full reversal against RFK's efforts in expanding civil rights, or a Yockey Presidency).... Would the now (understandably) radicalized civil rights and black liberation movements embracing Imperial Japan and the Co-Prosperity Sphere as an ally and example of a 'colored nation' fighting against Western imperialism and white supremacy, the same way that some more radical elements of the OTL Civil Rights movement embraced Maoism or the Marxist-Leninism? Would there be American civil rights leaders fleeing to Japan as political refugees and be used by Imperial Japan as propaganda pieces showcasing the evils of the West?
I can imagine Black Panthers and Indians in the US despising white liberals, calling them "hypocritical colonialists" and instead proclaiming the Empire of Japan as the ideal of anti-Western anti-colonial struggle. Criticizing the United States for intervening in the Indonesian civil war.

Something like: "Rich white guys neo-colonialists can not calm down in any way, they again climb into free Asian countries! They are trying to overthrow the elected representatives of the nation and put up their own puppets! "
 
This is a good idea. In real history, in the first months of Operation Barbarossa, hundreds of thousands of Russians, Ukrainians, Balts surrendered to the Germans, naively believing that the Germans are exactly the same as in the First World War and the German army is going to free them from the Bolsheviks. They are tired of the Stalinist policies, constant repression and collective farm slavery.
They knew nothing about the SS, concentration camps and nazi slavophobia.

In the TNO world, it can be assumed that the Russians, after the failure of the WRRF offensive, were simply tired of the war and they just wanted to return home.
The practice of war communism WRRF with the requisition of land, livestock, property is a good excuse why people went after the KONR and the white monarchists.
War weariness and the brutal policy of the communists, who take everything away for the needs of the war.

Meanwhile in the actual TNO, the White's and KONR are traitorous collaborationist auxiliary formations who make up the 2nd and 3rd least popular regimes west of the Urals. If it weren't for the AB, they'd be 1st and 2nd.
 
Meanwhile in the actual TNO, the White's and KONR are traitorous collaborationist auxiliary formations who make up the 2nd and 3rd least popular regimes west of the Urals. If it weren't for the AB, they'd be 1st and 2nd.
The Anti-Communist guard in Onega fits the idea best honestly.
The Whites and KONR are just way to garbage.
 
Meanwhile in the actual TNO, the White's and KONR are traitorous collaborationist auxiliary formations who make up the 2nd and 3rd least popular regimes west of the Urals. If it weren't for the AB, they'd be 1st and 2nd.
White officers could not betray anyone. They were not citizens of the Soviet Union.

The tragedy of the ROA was that Stalin and Hitler were equally terrible for a Russian. A man wants to live. But on the one hand, they drive you to the slaughter, and behind are the SMERSH officers who will shoot you. On the other hand, you find yourself in Nazi captivity and you will be starved to death in a concentration camp if you do not become a collaborationist.

With all this, you do not want to die and you know that if you surrender back to the USSR, a Soviet concentration camp is already waiting for you.
If you do not obey the Germans, you will return to the German concentration camp.
Nobody cares about your lives. ROA gave at least some hope to the Soviet prisoners of war for the future.

By the way, ROA-KONR occupies the best territory of Western Russia - there is a lot of industry and large fields for agriculture, the largest population.
 
One could argue that they betrayed Russia with their willingness to collaborate with people who are willing to exterminate the Russian nation.
Yes, but....

This is a complex and controversial topic.
In Russia, some bloggers and historians call the Great Patriotic War the Second Civil War.

In Ukraine, they generally do not consider the USSR as their homeland and respect the UPA nationalists, saying that Stalin and Hitler are equally bad.

The problem is that the white officers did not know about General Plan Ost. The official point of view of the German authorities is that we are waging a crusade against Bolshevism. This point of view was conveyed to the white officers.
In addition, most of the white officers, as representatives of aristocratic families, did not have any problems in the Reich, no one considered them Untermensch. Unlike ordinary Russian peasants and workers, whom the propaganda of the Reich compared with Asian savages.

Further. White officers and emigrants hated the USSR, because everything that Nazi punishers and murderers did in World War II - all this had already been done by the Chekists in the civil war.

The Nazis are known for making lampshades from the human skin of prisoners in concentration camps. So, the Chekists, for example, Rosalia Zaklind in the Crimea and Stepan Sayenko in Kharkov, made gloves from the human skin of white officers and officials for entertainment.
White officers and commanders in the navy were put on bayonets (a bayonet is inserted into the anus of a living person), their tongues were cut off, and so on.

The Russian Civil War was a real grimdark.
Now do you understand why the white officers had a slogan: "At least with a demon, but against the Bolsheviks"?
 
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