The New Order: Last Days of Europe - An Axis Victory Cold War Mod for HoIIV

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Fair enought

A good thing that came from the WRRF defeat is the fact that other warlords can now take power and make a Russia that is considerably better than the WRRF. Had the WRRF won on the 1950s this new USSR would eventually collapse on the future as the bloated mess that is a autsoc government or continue living as a crippled state, thus by having it united by a more rational government, socialist or not, might result on a stronger Russia on the long run despite it taking 20 more years to unite it
I'm skeptical of if the WRRF, or indeed a stereotypical "AuthSoc" government, would collapse due to being a "bloated mess." The OTL Soviet Union persisted for nearly 70 years, even though its economy was driven almost completely by a dysfunctional and undemocratic command structure. TNO Bukharin may have done many things wrong, but one part of his legacy that I feel gets unfairly overlooked is how his economic model has managed to permeate so many of the Soviet claimant states. Even Tukhachevsky, someone who looks up to Trotsky, has the option of maintaining Bukharin's NEP. At the very least, I fail to see how a Russia reunited by the WRRF with what one can assume would be an NEP-esque economy, would end up nearly as much of a bloated mess as the OTL Soviet Union.
 
I really don't know how much you can say that; as I understand it the WRRF was already falling apart before Vladimir entered the picture, and as I understand it he only led a single division that pretty much did end up just carving out some land in an already collapsing alliance.

Speaking of which, I honestly think that the WRRF getting as far as they do against Germany doesn't make much sense based on what we see of the military strength and the economic development of the western Russian warlords. I don't want it reworked or anything, but I have trouble seeing the WRRF able to actually seriously threaten German hegemony at this point.
I see the WRRF's near victory as more to do with the German state and military's complete and utter incompetence than with any particular advantage on the Russians' part.
 
Panzer once shared a hypothetical ATL in which the WRRF won the WRW... With the stage of the alternate TNO world actually looking even more grim compared to normal TNO, so there is certainly that to consider.

I'm skeptical of if the WRRF, or indeed a stereotypical "AuthSoc" government, would collapse due to being a "bloated mess." The OTL Soviet Union persisted for nearly 70 years, even though its economy was driven almost completely by a dysfunctional and undemocratic command structure. TNO Bukharin may have done many things wrong, but one part of his legacy that I feel gets unfairly overlooked is how his economic model has managed to permeate so many of the Soviet claimant states. Even Tukhachevsky, someone who looks up to Trotsky, has the option of maintaining Bukharin's NEP. At the very least, I fail to see how a Russia reunited by the WRRF with what one can assume would be an NEP-esque economy, would end up nearly as much of a bloated mess as the OTL Soviet Union.
Well, assuming it go for the NEP it won't be so bad, yeah.

I still prefer having a ton of opportunities, including some to not adopt the NEP just to roleplay as a Stalinist.
 
I really don't know how much you can say that; as I understand it the WRRF was already falling apart before Vladimir entered the picture, and as I understand it he only led a single division that pretty much did end up just carving out some land in an already collapsing alliance.

Speaking of which, I honestly think that the WRRF getting as far as they do against Germany doesn't make much sense based on what we see of the military strength and the economic development of the western Russian warlords. I don't want it reworked or anything, but I have trouble seeing the WRRF able to actually seriously threaten German hegemony at this point.
Vladimir led a single *formation* a bit more significant than a divison. And his breakthrough didn't just fuck things up, it fucked things over. The entire southern portion of the WRRF collapsed and Komi was cut off from the Kazakh SSR and its forces. The chain reaction caused by the breakthrough of Collaborationist units could be argued to have spelled the end of the first front as an entity.
 
Vladimir led a single *formation* a bit more significant than a divison. And his breakthrough didn't just fuck things up, it fucked things over. The entire southern portion of the WRRF collapsed and Komi was cut off from the Kazakh SSR and its forces. The chain reaction caused by the breakthrough of Collaborationist units could be argued to have spelled the end of the first front as an entity.
So, a bunch of 2nd rate Collab units accomplishing something a single German Panzer Corps would've probably done a few weeks later, in the midst of an organization already buckling under internal tensions (Suslov planning a coup in Syktyvkar, Kaganovich, and the WSPR withdrawing support) in a war already grinding to a stalemate.

Seems like the finishing touch in a war already lost.
 
Vladimir led a single *formation* a bit more significant than a divison. And his breakthrough didn't just fuck things up, it fucked things over. The entire southern portion of the WRRF collapsed and Komi was cut off from the Kazakh SSR and its forces. The chain reaction caused by the breakthrough of Collaborationist units could be argued to have spelled the end of the first front as an entity.
Baron, what is the difference between Vladimir collaboration and Vlassov one?
 
Vladimir led a single *formation* a bit more significant than a divison. And his breakthrough didn't just fuck things up, it fucked things over. The entire southern portion of the WRRF collapsed and Komi was cut off from the Kazakh SSR and its forces. The chain reaction caused by the breakthrough of Collaborationist units could be argued to have spelled the end of the first front as an entity.
OK wait, to what extent is there detailed lore on the WRW? I was under the impression that only the broad strokes (initial Soviet advance, SS coup, Speidel salvages it, the Front collapses) were canon.
 
Vladimir led a single *formation* a bit more significant than a divison. And his breakthrough didn't just fuck things up, it fucked things over. The entire southern portion of the WRRF collapsed and Komi was cut off from the Kazakh SSR and its forces. The chain reaction caused by the breakthrough of Collaborationist units could be argued to have spelled the end of the first front as an entity.
Man, the lengths a person is willing to go when a genocidal entity like the Third Reich holds their family hostage. Yeesh, it's suddenly starting to make sense why Vladimir is so racked with guilt over his past collaboration at the start of TNO.
 
OK wait, to what extent is there detailed lore on the WRW? I was under the impression that only the broad strokes (initial Soviet advance, SS coup, Speidel salvages it, the Front collapses) were canon.
Whats canon is basically that + lore you can glean from loc and some leaks.


That image is old and a bit outdated but it shows the rough outline of the WRW. Vlad was "with" (IIRC his forces were separately commanded) Vlasov's collab forces at the time and participated in the breakthrough which resulted in them being left behind the eventual front line. From there whats canon is the front collapsing as the sudden loss in territory/momentum leads to some infighting and desertion (Vologada goes neutral, seperatists in Tartastan and Bashkiria rise), before the true collapse (a bombing results in the komi-based party faction and Voroshilov's military faction in Arkhangelsk breaking up) before fighting just kinda dies off with no clear victor.

Many general events are known from the war, but the order is rarely specified.
 
Seems like the finishing touch in a war already lost.
Yes but that it was fellow Russians doing the finishing touch... rankles.
Baron, what is the difference between Vladimir collaboration and Vlassov one?

This, eh its debateable. Vlasov collaborated more willingly by comparison, but arguably was less opportunistic than many of the Russian Whites (of which Vlad is a member) who actively signed up for collab units in some cases (men from OTL like Krasnov etc) as opposed to being recruited from POW's like Vlasov's men initially were. I guess it depends on the personal view of the situation.
 
Seems like the finishing touch in a war already lost.
It does seem like that. I believe the WRRF had to be evidently faltering at it's seams if Vlad had been confident enough in striking out on his own with his sub-standard army. Otherwise, if The Front still looked to be standing strong and steady, then it's a wonder why Vlad would take the risk and force his way through the lines when it would clearly look like such a move would end disastrously for him nor would it make sense what his plan was exactly if the conditions weren't favourable for him to set up a statelet within the WRRF's territory, unless he planned to cut through all the way towards somewhere out of Russia and the war itself.
I guess it depends on the personal view of the situation.
From my own view, both leaders had understandable motives. Vlad's family was being held hostage and Vlasov was facing the fairly high prospect of dying in a POW camp and perhaps getting executed by the Soviets for "failure" and getting captured as well (though I can't say if the WRRF would have been as prone to that as Stalin was, in which case we could only consider the awfully fatal Nazi POW camps). The rank-and-file is where the differences are more clear-cut, with Vlad's followers being those Whites who rallied to him when he was coerced into collaboration, even including Whites who hadn't co-operated with Germany OTL.

Whereas Vlasov's ROA was mostly composed of POW like himself whose lives under German captivity tended to be (bluntly speaking) shitty and short, and were desperate for any avenue out of it. In addition to some special cases like Bunyachenko, who not only had to endure pains of being a POW in Nazi custody (I believe TNOTL, he was a forced labourer in a Coal mine) but also bore a bitter grudge against their nation, like when Bunyachenko had been screwed over and sentenced to death-in-absentia by the Soviet Gov't for following one of their orders, that which had turned out to be counter-productive to the war effort.
 
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From my own view, both leaders had understandable motives. Vlad's family was being held hostage and Vlasov was facing the fairly high prospect of dying in a POW camp and perhaps getting executed by the Soviets for "failure" and getting captured as well (though I can't say if the WRRF would have been as prone to that as Stalin was, in which case we could only consider the awfully fatal Nazi POW camps). The rank-and-file is where the differences are more clear-cut, with Vlad's followers being those Whites who rallied to him when he was coerced into collaboration, even including White
I agreed, I tend to break into two kinds of collaboration:

The first is willing, that is not acceptable under any case, this go for people like the leaders of local fascists parties that helped the Nazis.

And then the one is "ah yes, master, I follow you, just don't kill me. Hey look, what is that?" Then he hits dastardly dick from behind.
 
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