The New Order: Last Days of Europe - An Axis Victory Cold War Mod for HoIIV

chankljp

Donor
In TWR, Free France could go Fascist (Albeit pushing for an Apartheid State).
In TWR, the Fascist path for Free France involve them setting up the state of Lazarie, a Rhodesia-styled 'White African ethno-state' that would renounce their claim as the rightful government of French, as well as abandon most their their colonial holdings in order to relocate all the French Exiles to a small strip of land on the coast, where they can create a slim white majority population.

Outside of Free France collapsing into a fall state, I don't see this happening at all. Also, with Free France being in a much, much worst position in TNO compared to their TWR counterpart, part of me wonder if when they finally get content, they would just end up being a doomed player trap.
 
For a Fascistic Free France, I did design this tree for fun on draw.io.
Free_France_Fascist.png
How I envision the Fascists in Free France, well they aren't exactly Fascist. More like Authoritarian Nationalist Conservatives similar to Shaferavich who employ Fascist policies. That and the Free French despise Fascism, so realistically they are Nationalist Conservatives whose policies are enough to put them in the Fascist category.
The men in the portraits are Free French Generals who were tied to the OAS and were involved in the 1958 May Crisis and the Algiers Putsch.
 

chankljp

Donor
They are IIRC amongst the hardest countries around.
I meant that in the sense of Free France in TNO being outright impossible, instead of just 'really hard'.

Really, even say... the French state democratizes and declares itself the Fourth Republic, or if the regime mess up badly enough that the resistance managed to overthrow them in an uprising. How could De Gaulle and his Third Republic remnant be able to reclaim the homeland, with them being just a bunch of aging WW2 veterans, controlling nothing but a small strip of the Ivory Coast while not even being a majority of the population? What would they be able to offer the new democratized government/the resistance actually on the ground in France to give themselves a sit at the table to have any sort of political influence back in their homeland?

At best, I can see them being given the same treatment as the OTL Polish government-in-exile after the fall of communism in 1990, with them being symbolically recognized as a continuity of the Third Republic, any military medals and other decorations that the government in exile have awarded being officially recognized, and its members being allowed to return home... But not with any of them being a position hold any public office or be involved in any political activities as a result of them not having lived in the country for so long.

As for a Kaiserreich-style military liberation/conquest of France that will allow the Exiles being back in power... Just... How? The most optimal possibility I can see would be a combination of:

(1) The French state collapsing into a fail state
(2) A German Civil War that dragged on to the anarchy stage, preventing them from projecting power beyond their own boarder.
(3) Iberia wins the Algerian war against Italy, putting one of the French legionnaire officers in charge to rule in charge.
(4) Iberia collapse into a civil war themselves, allowing said French legionnaire regime to break free, and have them turn power over to De Gaulle's Free France, with seizes the city of Algiers.
(5) With them being the only game left in town, OFN recognizes Free France as the legitimate French government.

Now even in this optimized scenario that puts them give across the Mediterranean to their homeland, they will still be in a much weaker position compared to either Free France from TWR, or Nationalist France from KR. How will they actually train and equipped enough troops to land in Marseille? They wouldn't have enough French colonials settlers to join their army, so would they conscript Africans to fight for them? Why would the Africans have any interests to get themselves killed in order to help De Gaulle and his band of exiles reclaim France, instead of just turning their guns against their European officers, and free their own country? Hire them as volunteer members of the Foreign Legion? What exactly would Free France even be able to pay them with? And unlike in OTL, a promise of French citizenship would really be worth much to entice people into joining.

I am just convinced that short of a total ass-pull, Free France is a Tabby-style player trap even under the most optimal conditions, with it being a deconstruction of the Entente's entire 'Reclaim the Birthright' slogan in KR, and maybe having a message about how sometimes, no matter how obsessed and determined you are with achieving something, it will still be a fool's errand in the end, and that you need to... Let it go.
 
TNO should have switched Goerings and Speers roles. Goering as the insincere reformer, while Speer is a puppet of militarists.
Maybe it would have made sense, but I think the devs wanted to play on the myth that Speer built around himself historically of having little to do with what the regime was doing while in actuality he was, well, insincere.
 
Personally I dont think Free France would be a trap path, but it would be very hard and in most cases they relinquish ties to the homeland in favor of creating a “new” society in Africa, while returning to the homeland requires a couple of cobditions that rarely happen.

Hell, even the number of trap/doomed paths is less than what was commonly thought of to happen in TNO, with Tabby, Huttig, Goering and maybe Vagner being the really big ones
 
Honestly Geobbels would probably be more interesting as Schorner's puppet than Goring just writing wise. Goring and Schorner are basically the same type of person; they're both rather cynical and practical. With Geobbels and Schorner, though, you can have foils; the fanatical true believer being manipulated by this cynical, irreverent general interested in military supremacy above all else. You could also have Geobbels slowly build to the realization that he's just Schorner's puppet, as opposed to Goring who knows he is from the word go. If Remer takes power you could even have a heel realization from Geobbels, sort of like Heydrich- as nuclear war is inevitable Geobbels realizes that this is where his hateful rhetoric has brought the Aryan race; unlike Heydrich, however, he'll be helpless to do anything but watch the march to nuclear war. So yeah, I think there's a lot more pathos to Geobbels in Goring's role, more pathos to the genius propagandist being reduced to a figurehead for Schorner. Plus the dynamic between a fanatical ideologue and a cynical militarist pulling the strings is more interesting than that between a cynical politician and an equally cynical militarist pulling the strings. Plus I feel like the moment when Geobbels realizes that he's just a puppet of Schorner and that none of his speeches can get him out of this would be incredibly satisfying.
 
Honestly Geobbels would probably be more interesting as Schorner's puppet than Goring just writing wise. Goring and Schorner are basically the same type of person; they're both rather cynical and practical. With Geobbels and Schorner, though, you can have foils; the fanatical true believer being manipulated by this cynical, irreverent general interested in military supremacy above all else. You could also have Geobbels slowly build to the realization that he's just Schorner's puppet, as opposed to Goring who knows he is from the word go. If Remer takes power you could even have a heel realization from Geobbels, sort of like Heydrich- as nuclear war is inevitable Geobbels realizes that this is where his hateful rhetoric has brought the Aryan race; unlike Heydrich, however, he'll be helpless to do anything but watch the march to nuclear war. So yeah, I think there's a lot more pathos to Geobbels in Goring's role, more pathos to the genius propagandist being reduced to a figurehead for Schorner. Plus the dynamic between a fanatical ideologue and a cynical militarist pulling the strings is more interesting than that between a cynical politician and an equally cynical militarist pulling the strings. Plus I feel like the moment when Geobbels realizes that he's just a puppet of Schorner and that none of his speeches can get him out of this would be incredibly satisfying.
This is my general idea.
 
Plus Goebbels and Schorner OTL were partners in crime in the whole 'try to stop the Red Army with a wall made from the flesh of dead old men and children' thing, so it makes sense that in TNOTL they would have some sort of preexisting special relationship. Goebbels actually specifically noted in his diary that Schorner was the Wehrmacht general he most admired, because of his merciless treatment of 'defeatists'. OTL they had a clear ideological affinity.
 
Personally I dont think Free France would be a trap path, but it would be very hard and in most cases they relinquish ties to the homeland in favor of creating a “new” society in Africa, while returning to the homeland requires a couple of cobditions that rarely happen.

Hell, even the number of trap/doomed paths is less than what was commonly thought of to happen in TNO, with Tabby, Huttig, Goering and maybe Vagner being the really big ones
It would be ironic to see Free France fall since someone like Harrington or LBJ is elect and adopts a anti colonialist attitude and intentionally sabotates the free french reconquest
 
It would be ironic to see Free France fall since someone like Harrington or LBJ is elect and adopts a anti colonialist attitude and intentionally sabotates the free french reconquest
Free France comes off to me as a state that couldn’t possibly survive in the long run. It’s South Africa but without the economy and supplies.
 
It would be ironic to see Free France fall since someone like Harrington or LBJ is elect and adopts a anti colonialist attitude and intentionally sabotates the free french reconquest
I would really like to see this. I love plot line where “good guys” (in this case OFN and anti nazi country) are not monolithic and sometime their action sabotage one another.
 
Free France comes off to me as a state that couldn’t possibly survive in the long run. It’s South Africa but without the economy and supplies.
Well, it can only survives if it reclaims the main land, and even after they do that the rest will probably collapse (apart from Algeria).
 
Well, it can only survives if it reclaims the main land, and even after they do that the rest will probably collapse (apart from Algeria).
As far as I can see, the Free French tree will probably be comparable to Long Yun on a different timescale. A mad rush through West Africa after Hitler kicks the bucket on a shoestring budget, followed by challenging the Spanish and Italian proxies for Algeria, followed by the landings in France, and finally the final boss fight, Burgundy.
 
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