The Netherlands Gets French Flanders in 1815

Would they actually know that after France's butt-kicking in the Napoleonic Wars, though?

Yes. The Coalition knew very well that France was too powerful to be destroyed for good which is why the 1790 borders were the chosen as that way the coalition kept France out of the Rhine and Antwerp without antagonizing them to the point of expecting a new war against France. Metternich actually wanted France to have the 97 borders but no one wanted France on the Rhine and the 90 borders were the ones that pleased everyone.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Yes. The Coalition knew very well that France was too powerful to be destroyed for good which is why the 1790 borders were the chosen as that way the coalition kept France out of the Rhine and Antwerp without antagonizing them to the point of expecting a new war against France. Metternich actually wanted France to have the 97 borders but no one wanted France on the Rhine and the 90 borders were the ones that pleased everyone.
OK.
 
The French department Nord which I think would the likely area annexed have around 2,5 million of those only around 400.000 live in traditional Flemish speaking areas. If we only include Lille and Dunkirk (French Flanders) it only 1,6 million still with the same number of potential Flemish speakers.

If Netherlands get these areas Dunkirk likely stay Flemish speaking.

Will France want Nord back? I expect so, but I doubt it will make much difference in French agression as France had the annexation of Belgium as a clear foreign policy goal until 1871. Whether Belgium/Netherlands get a liitle extra French territory will make little difference in France hunger for its neighbours territory. But if Netherlands gain this territory will other bits being cut off from France, could we see Spain take French Catalonia and maybe French Navarre, could Alsace, Greater Lorraine and maybe Franche-Comte be cut off and given to the Habsburgs (who would likely trade it for another territory elsewhere). In general when you begin to cut pierce from France it make sense to take a lot.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
The French department Nord which I think would the likely area annexed have around 2,5 million of those only around 400.000 live in traditional Flemish speaking areas. If we only include Lille and Dunkirk (French Flanders) it only 1,6 million still with the same number of potential Flemish speakers.

So, an inclusion of Lille and Dunkirk would make this area 75% French (1.2 million out of 1.6 million)?

If Netherlands get these areas Dunkirk likely stay Flemish speaking.

OK.

Will France want Nord back? I expect so, but I doubt it will make much difference in French agression as France had the annexation of Belgium as a clear foreign policy goal until 1871. Whether Belgium/Netherlands get a liitle extra French territory will make little difference in France hunger for its neighbours territory.

OK.

But if Netherlands gain this territory will other bits being cut off from France, could we see Spain take French Catalonia and maybe French Navarre, could Alsace, Greater Lorraine and maybe Franche-Comte be cut off and given to the Habsburgs (who would likely trade it for another territory elsewhere). In general when you begin to cut pierce from France it make sense to take a lot.

What about doing all of this?
 
So, an inclusion of Lille and Dunkirk would make this area 75% French (1.2 million out of 1.6 million)?

Yes, it won't make a lot of difference in a United Netherlands, it will just make Wallonia slightly bigger and give it some more industry. But if Belgium get independence this improve the position of French speakers versus Flemism speakers.

What about doing all of this?

It would be interesting, but as people say the result will be a new war a few decades down the road. I could see the 1830 Revolution still happen in France, but the new government will likely be much agressive in regaining its lost territories. So maybe we see France starting a new round of wars in the late 1830ties, early 1840ties. I think everyone will unite against France and France will end up beaten again (and lose some more land). But a efffect of the second round of French wars, could be that the German Confederation turn into the German Empire (whether under Habsburg or Hohenzollern depend on how each do against France).
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Yes, it won't make a lot of difference in a United Netherlands, it will just make Wallonia slightly bigger and give it some more industry. But if Belgium get independence this improve the position of French speakers versus Flemism speakers.

So, would there be a greater desire to unify with France among Belgians in this TL?

It would be interesting, but as people say the result will be a new war a few decades down the road. I could see the 1830 Revolution still happen in France, but the new government will likely be much agressive in regaining its lost territories. So maybe we see France starting a new round of wars in the late 1830ties, early 1840ties. I think everyone will unite against France and France will end up beaten again (and lose some more land). But a efffect of the second round of French wars, could be that the German Confederation turn into the German Empire (whether under Habsburg or Hohenzollern depend on how each do against France).
The creation of a German Empire in the 1830s or 1840s would certainly be very interesting! :)
 
some data

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Flanders

map of the historic dutch speaking areas

640px-France_Flanders_language-nl.svg.png
 
It would be interesting, but as people say the result will be a new war a few decades down the road. I could see the 1830 Revolution still happen in France, but the new government will likely be much agressive in regaining its lost territories. So maybe we see France starting a new round of wars in the late 1830ties, early 1840ties. I think everyone will unite against France and France will end up beaten again (and lose some more land). But a efffect of the second round of French wars, could be that the German Confederation turn into the German Empire (whether under Habsburg or Hohenzollern depend on how each do against France).

It might depend on how France approaches the conflict. What if France states that its sole objective is a return to its 1789 external borders? Would that be enough to raise up a new anti-French coalition?
 

longsword14

Banned
Would they actually know that after France's butt-kicking in the Napoleonic Wars, though?
It required Austria, Prussia, Russia and every other German state combined to grind them down; why would they be united in their quest to do what you ask? If you could give a certain POD then it would be meaningful to ask, otherwise only Britain could possibly do so, but it would have lesser backing than OTL.
Austria actually wanted France as a counterbalance, and Russia is not likely to make noise about it unless it stands to gain somebody's support somewhere for some other annexation.
 
From what I remember from my history lessons, the 'Flanders' the new Greater Netherlands ended up with were the old Austrian Netherlands that Austria could not claim back. Although the Lille/Dunkirk region was ethnically Flemish, it was a fixed part of France for a century already and the Vienna congress looked at rulership rater then ethnicity. In fact, purely ethnically speaking, in 1815 Flanders consisted out of the French region of Flandres and the Austrian provinces of East and West Flanders, Antwerpians and Limburgers were at that point not considered Flemish, nor was Austrian Brabant. If it were about languages and ethnicality, the Netherlands could claim all of the North Sea coast west of Hamburg before it could claim Dunkirk.
 
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From what I remember from my history lessons, the 'Flanders' the new Greater Netherlands ended up with were the old Austrian Netherlands that Austria could not claim back. Although the Lille/Dunkirk region was ethnically Flemish, it was a fixed part of France for a century already and the Vienna congress looked at rulership rater then ethnicity. In fact, purely ethnically speaking, in 1815 Flanders consisted out of the French region of Flandres and the Austrian provinces of East and West Flanders, Antwerpians and Limburgers were at that point not considered Flemish, nor was Austrian Brabant. If it were about languages and ethnicality, the Netherlands could claim all of the North Sea coast west of Hamburg before it could claim Dunkirk.

If by "ethnically Flemish" you mean Flemish-speaking, that was true of Dunkirk but not Lille. Lille is in the southern half of French Flanders, known as the Flandre romane as it is Romance-speaking.
 
After the final defeat of Napoleon the new created Kindom of the Netherlands will gain a part of France, South of Mons-Charleroi.
Instead of this part it could wel have a larger and more important part like French Flanders, inlcuding Lille(Rijsel), part of the county of Flanders and lost during the Louis XIV wars some 150 years before.
How ever I do think the British need to be in mood to punish France harder after Waterloo and for the French, Taylerant need to have the flu during the negotiations.
 

longsword14

Banned
After the final defeat of Napoleon the new created Kindom of the Netherlands will gain a part of France, South of Mons-Charleroi.
Instead of this part it could wel have a larger and more important part like French Flanders, inlcuding Lille(Rijsel), part of the county of Flanders and lost during the Louis XIV wars some 150 years before.
How ever I do think the British need to be in mood to punish France harder after Waterloo and for the French, Taylerant need to have the flu during the negotiations.
Negotiations are not uni-polar, Britain would need to have somebody other than itself for support, otherwise who ever is on the French side would turn to the Austrians for backing, which they very well might give.
Why did this partition not happen in OTL? Change it somehow, but it would require a POD a bit earlier. Possibly Britain decides do give thei support to Prussia in some other matter, keeping support for annexation to the Netherlands as their price? Would be interesting how Austria decides to oppose Prussia, which it will to keep France as a counterweight.
 
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