The Netherlands Gets French Flanders in 1815

CaliGuy

Banned
What if the Netherlands would have gotten French Flanders in 1815 in order to punish France a bit further for Napoleon's return earlier that year?
 
Well, when the Netherlands falls into civil war faster than OTL with a much larger population of Francophone catholics, I'd expect any French government to not only gain the territory back but probably make a bid for much of Wallonia as well.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Well, when the Netherlands falls into civil war faster than OTL with a much larger population of Francophone catholics, I'd expect any French government to not only gain the territory back but probably make a bid for much of Wallonia as well.
France tried to get Wallonia in 1830 in our TL and failed, though.
 
France OTL after the Napoleonic Wars kept the frontiers of the old French monarchy. In this TL, with the Netherlands taking over territory that had been part of France from the mid-17th century on, in at least one critical area France would be territorially lacking. Trying to reclaim this lost territory would be more likely than not, IMHO.

Once France violates its post-1815 frontiers to take one kind of claimed territory from the Netherlands, I don't think it might be long before it began other kinds of territorial violations. Why not try to take over an economically promising and Francophone Wallonia? Compare, I suppose, Russia first annexing Crimea then sponsoring pro-Russian separatists in the Donbas.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
France OTL after the Napoleonic Wars kept the frontiers of the old French monarchy. In this TL, with the Netherlands taking over territory that had been part of France from the mid-17th century on, in at least one critical area France would be territorially lacking. Trying to reclaim this lost territory would be more likely than not, IMHO.

Once France violates its post-1815 frontiers to take one kind of claimed territory from the Netherlands, I don't think it might be long before it began other kinds of territorial violations. Why not try to take over an economically promising and Francophone Wallonia? Compare, I suppose, Russia first annexing Crimea then sponsoring pro-Russian separatists in the Donbas.
Sooner or later this will provoke Great Power military intervention, no?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Also, France controlled both Saarlouis and Landau from the late 1600s up to 1815; indeed, if it lost those cities in 1815, why exactly can't it likewise lose Lille in 2015?
 
France may be compensated with a better (1814) border in Wallonia, perhaps.
I an not sure Lille is in the cards though (francophone area IIRC). I suppose Dunkirk is more realistic.
 
And who will think it worth their time to give French Flanders to the Netherlands, when they know that France would go to war?
Well with an alternative treaty it means the great powers had an alt attitude going into negotiations, to me this means the great powers have deemed it necessary to punish France and so wouldn't look kindly apon any French attempts to expand.
 
OTL the Netherlands gained Belgium because the British, and everyone but the Austrians, didn't want France on the left bank of the Rhine. If the Netherlands gains the French Flanders, then they will be expected to be compensated elsewhere, but neither the Prussians nor the Russians would accept France on the left bank of the Rhine, Savoy wouldn't accept to lose land in Italy without compensation from either Two Sicilies or from Austrian Italy and Spain would never accept to change the border.

Only way I see this happen is if Talleyrand fails to put France on the negotiations and if the other great powers go full Versailles on France and then expect a new war in 20-30 years.
 
Well at 1815 , the french westhoek was still speaking that dutch dialect called west flemish. It was as early in the 1900's that french become the major langage. So it was reasonnable to say that with the french westhoek and the majority of the waloon flanders (with rijsel) this is reasonnable, and for the coast take gravelingen to dunkirk. I even say the french Meuse corridor from Givet to Fumay is pure french abberation. All these conquest belong to the brave sun king and his stupidy that is only matched by his ego. And even is there's a Belgium coming , these territories "taken" from France shall fall to them. In fact , the peoples of the nord department and the meuse corridor are more like the belgian than the french in a lot of aspects. See France is in history the guy who steal a lot of thing but who cry when he get caught.
 
Well at 1815 , the french westhoek was still speaking that dutch dialect called west flemish. It was as early in the 1900's that french become the major langage. So it was reasonnable to say that with the french westhoek and the majority of the waloon flanders (with rijsel) this is reasonnable, and for the coast take gravelingen to dunkirk. I even say the french Meuse corridor from Givet to Fumay is pure french abberation. All these conquest belong to the brave sun king and his stupidy that is only matched by his ego. And even is there's a Belgium coming , these territories "taken" from France shall fall to them. In fact , the peoples of the nord department and the meuse corridor are more like the belgian than the french in a lot of aspects. See France is in history the guy who steal a lot of thing but who cry when he get caught.
You can say the same of Germany.
France as all other country wasn't build in a day take Germany during the 19th century it had a lot of german dialect that didn't mean that the population didn't identify as a unified German people.
Language isn't what determine the country a region belong to look at China or India.
And Belgium becoming independent isn't guaranteed.
 
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You can say the same of Germany.
France as all other country wasn't build in a day take Germany during the 19th century it had a lot of german dialect that didn't mean that the population didn't identify as a unified German people.
Language isn't what determine the country a region belong to look at China or India.
And Belgium becoming independent isn't guaranteed.
Indeed, the Netherlands could get torn apart by France before the Belgians revolt. Or by Prussia.
 
Indeed, the Netherlands could get torn apart by France before the Belgians revolt. Or by Prussia.

Doubt that any of the two would try that. GB spent the full Congress of Vienna making sure that the Flanders ports didn't ended under French control, which was why they supported the Netherlands on that one and Prussia had no interest on that area, at the time the greatest Prussian interest was Saxony and Poland and was only when Russia and GB placed the Rhineland under their control that they gained interest on western and central Germany. There was even a British plan to place all of Northern Germany under Prussian "control" (they thought that the Prussians and their navy of 4 fishing boats would never become a threat to GB so who better to control all those German ports?) but I doubt that they even considered that a viable option.

If France advances against the Netherlands, GB would fight to ensure that Belgium didn't ended under French control, they would accept a independent Belgium but not one under French rule. Prussia would have even lesse interest in attacking the Netherlands given that they had good relations during this period.
 
Doubt that any of the two would try that. GB spent the full Congress of Vienna making sure that the Flanders ports didn't ended under French control, which was why they supported the Netherlands on that one and Prussia had no interest on that area, at the time the greatest Prussian interest was Saxony and Poland and was only when Russia and GB placed the Rhineland under their control that they gained interest on western and central Germany. There was even a British plan to place all of Northern Germany under Prussian "control" (they thought that the Prussians and their navy of 4 fishing boats would never become a threat to GB so who better to control all those German ports?) but I doubt that they even considered that a viable option.

If France advances against the Netherlands, GB would fight to ensure that Belgium didn't ended under French control, they would accept a independent Belgium but not one under French rule. Prussia would have even lesse interest in attacking the Netherlands given that they had good relations during this period.
To be precise, Britain didn't want France in control of Antwerp. If France allows some sort of a Brabant to go independent (based around Brussels, but containing Antwerp) Britain might accept France retaking the Nord (ie French Flanders and French Hainaut) and chunks of Wallonia and Flanders west of the Escaut.
 
To be precise, Britain didn't want France in control of Antwerp. If France allows some sort of a Brabant to go independent (based around Brussels, but containing Antwerp) Britain might accept France retaking the Nord (ie French Flanders and French Hainaut) and chunks of Wallonia and Flanders west of the Escaut.

Correct but if the Netherlands gets the French Flanders that means that they weren't invited to the table of negotiation, or dance of negotiations in this case, so it must mean that the Coalition Powers agreed to some sort of compromise in case France tries to recover lost territory. Honestly no power, other than the Netherlands, cared about the French Flanders they just wanted France out of Antwerp.
 
I don't think it'd mean much for the Netherlands. The Westhoek especially was still rather Dutch in nature, and in any case language wasn't actually an issue until much later.

French revanchism would be more important to consider, but even then it'd probably ebb away over the span of a few decades.
 
Or by Prussia.
unlikely considering the blood ties.
King william I was married to Princess Wilhelmina of prussia
Prince Frederick (2nd son of the dutch king wiliam I) was married to princess Louise of Prussia, the prince was raised at the court of his grandfather Frederick William II of Prussia.
 
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