The Neterlands buys the unfinished Mackensen battlecruisers

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Despite the cost and the ungoiing Washington Naval treaty negotiations, the Dutch cabinet (reluctant aproved by parlaiment) buys the three Mackensen class battle cruisers from Germany for scrapp price.
The ships, not more than hulls, will be finished on dutch yards with extensive help of German engeneers. The three ships will be the core of Dutch naval defence in the Indonesia colony.
Armament will be bought else where since Germany is not allowed to build large guns.

How would they look like ?
What affect would this have later on the Dutch navy and possible naval actions in WW2 ?
 

Riain

Banned
I wonder what they could achieved during early 1942, if they could arrive at the Battle of Java Sea undamaged to drill the IJN heavy cruisers?
 

Markus

Banned
I wonder what they could achieved during early 1942, if they could arrive at the Battle of Java Sea undamaged to drill the IJN heavy cruisers?

Sure, once they get past the japanese battleships.

Buying, operating and modernizing what are almost fast BB would be a major departure from OTL Dutch defence policy. I´m sure ground and (supporting) air untis would be stronger too, given the value the three BC represent.

And another thought, after the Fall of the Netherlands I expect two or all to be deployed to the Atlantic to hunt down german pocket-BB, the Sisters and so on. Of course they´d be replaced in light of the value of the NEI. Say by the Hawks, A-17A and SB2U the UK got around the same time.

edit: What will they look like? I guess they get the usual modernisation: oil fired boilers for sure, more powerful engines, improved anti-torpedo protection, no torpedo tubes any more, stronger triple-A, maybe changes to the secondary artillery like closing the casemats and putting gunturrets on the deck.
 
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I was thinking of a ship, finished in the mid twenties, which looked like this.
secondary armament, 15cm, in dual towers, instead of casemates.
AA guns, same as the cruisers; Java, Sumatra and Celebes.

Enginering with much assistance of german naval engineers, who are unemployed due to the Versailes treaty.

Ships can be altered after a major refit in the thirties. Especialy when dual purpose secondary armament comes available.

(drawing based on ashley)

BB Du 1922.png
 
Sure, once they get past the japanese battleships.

Buying, operating and modernizing what are almost fast BB would be a major departure from OTL Dutch defence policy. I´m sure ground and (supporting) air untis would be stronger too, given the value the three BC represent.

And another thought, after the Fall of the Netherlands I expect two or all to be deployed to the Atlantic to hunt down german pocket-BB, the Sisters and so on. Of course they´d be replaced in light of the value of the NEI. Say by the Hawks, A-17A and SB2U the UK got around the same time.

edit: What will they look like? I guess they get the usual modernisation: oil fired boilers for sure, more powerful engines, improved anti-torpedo protection, no torpedo tubes any more, stronger triple-A, maybe changes to the secondary artillery like closing the casemats and putting gunturrets on the deck.


It is highly unlikely that the Dutch would relocate the battlecruisers to a part of the world not in their interest, namely the Atlantic, since the Dutch East Indies were the only reason for them to possibly obtain these vessels. As with all the larger Dutch Warships, they would remain in the Dutch East Indies untill war with Japan was started and they were kicked out of this colony.

Secondly: the German threath of surfacraiders after the Fall of France wsa limmited to only an occasional sorty by a single ship, besides covering operations of the other large units in the Kriegsmarine. In fact only the cruiser Admiral Scheer made a single raidingmission to the South Atlantic and Indian Ocean, while all other German warships remained in the North Atlantic, where the British already had their bulk of their fleet based, so the Dutch ships were actually not even needed there. (they did free the way for British warships, otherwise located in the Eastern Fleet, such as HMS Repulse and HMS Prince of Wales.)

Most likely, the hulls of the purchased vessels would be fitted from the start on with oil fired boilers, since the Dutch had large quanteties of Oil in their colonies and refineries as well. As oilfired ships, they would have been very well ballanced in the Dutch East indies, superior in most cases to the Japanese Kongo's, due to their much heavier scale of protection, but likely less speed. (Japan would never send its battlefleet to the Dutch East Indies in wartime, as this fleet was tasked with the protection of the Japanese mainland against possible US Agression (Doolittle Raid for instance. The Kongo's were actually not listed in the Battlefleet, or 1st Fleet, but in the 3rd Fleet, which was the strikingforce of the Aircraft Carriers.)
 
I was thinking of a ship, finished in the mid twenties, which looked like this.
secondary armament, 15cm, in dual towers, instead of casemates.
AA guns, same as the cruisers; Java, Sumatra and Celebes.

Enginering with much assistance of german naval engineers, who are unemployed due to the Versailes treaty.

Ships can be altered after a major refit in the thirties. Especialy when dual purpose secondary armament comes available.

(drawing based on ashley)


A possible alteration on this design was to instal a towerbridge, simmilar to the light cruiser De Ruyter, also a design of the mid 30's. The secondaries would likely be installed on the main deck level in two or three twinturrets on each side (8 to 12 guns), propably of a DP type and light AA would likely be concentrated on the foreward - and after superstructure in groups of three to five twinmountings each of 40 mm bofors/Hazemeijer type. Aircraft could be fitted on one of the turrets aft, possibly on Q turret and on the stern on capatpults.
 
I will try to make a 30ties refit, also I am not convinced of the location of secondary turrets. The of place secondary armament in trurrets was relative new in the 20ties and AA armanment even more new. But it is already more advanced than in late wartime German designs.

The Makensens were chosen since their predecessor, the Derflingers came as close as possible to the Dutch 1913 Germania Krupp designs. This were battle ships with an above average speed and a below average armor. This ships were designed to defense the Dutch Indies with Japan as oponent. This was pre WW1 Dutch thinking.

Consequence also will be a mixture of the 1913 fleet program and the execution of the 1923 building program. Thus all 3 light cruisers of th Java class completed and even 3 more, escorted by torpedoboat/destroyers and a strong submarine force.
Within the dutch navy there were stong propagandist of the submarine weapon, and due to the war convinced in this weapon as a scout and offensive gurilla weapon.
With this ships in service the Dutch fleet will be a real fleet in beiing, not the marginalist service it was in the twenties and thirties.

Dutch goverment spending need to increase from 1.7% GDP (average OTL) to more normal level.
 

Markus

Banned
It is highly unlikely that the Dutch would relocate the battlecruisers to a part of the world not in their interest, namely the Atlantic, since the Dutch East Indies were the only reason for them to possibly obtain these vessels. As with all the larger Dutch Warships, they would remain in the Dutch East Indies untill war with Japan was started and they were kicked out of this colony.

Secondly: the German threath of surfacraiders after the Fall of France wsa limmited to only an occasional sorty by a single ship, besides covering operations of the other large units in the Kriegsmarine. In fact only the cruiser Admiral Scheer made a single raidingmission to the South Atlantic and Indian Ocean, while all other German warships remained in the North Atlantic, where the British already had their bulk of their fleet based, so the Dutch ships were actually not even needed there.

True but the Netherlands have an alliance with the UK in which they were the junior partner. IOTL the bulk of the Dutch Navy was kept in the DEI as the RNN had little or nothing the RN didn´t have. Not so ITTL, add the fact that the threat from Germany was overestimated and the Dutch could hardly reply to a british request with an unconditional NO.



Consequence also will be a mixture of the 1913 fleet program and the execution of the 1923 building program. Thus all 3 light cruisers of th Java class completed and even 3 more, escorted by torpedoboat/destroyers and a strong submarine force.

More cruisers and DD are needed to screen the three capital ships but Javas blow, seriously and it´s painfully obvious by the end of WW1. Let´s not lay down a third but buy something good instead? The british D-class is 20% smaller, has 40% less guns but the broadside is just 15% weaker due to the much smarter positioning of the guns. And once you remove the 4*3 torpedo tubes, you could replace at least two of the 6" single with twin mounts without increasing the displacement. Then the broadside is one gun larger than a Java´s and I´d be surprised if the Ds had any of the engine troubles that plagued the Javas.
 
True but the Netherlands have an alliance with the UK in which they were the junior partner. IOTL the bulk of the Dutch Navy was kept in the DEI as the RNN had little or nothing the RN didn´t have. Not so ITTL, add the fact that the threat from Germany was overestimated and the Dutch could hardly reply to a british request with an unconditional NO.





More cruisers and DD are needed to screen the three capital ships but Javas blow, seriously and it´s painfully obvious by the end of WW1. Let´s not lay down a third but buy something good instead? The british D-class is 20% smaller, has 40% less guns but the broadside is just 15% weaker due to the much smarter positioning of the guns. And once you remove the 4*3 torpedo tubes, you could replace at least two of the 6" single with twin mounts without increasing the displacement. Then the broadside is one gun larger than a Java´s and I´d be surprised if the Ds had any of the engine troubles that plagued the Javas.



OK, I can follow your arguments, although would it not be much easier to hold back British ships instead of calling back vessels of an ally from the other side of the world? The Dutch pressence in the East indies was primarily foccussed on Japan, who both British and Dutch considered a much more important foe, than the occasional German warship raiding in the South Atlantic. From 1939 on the Eatern Fleet was demanding more and more ships to perform its FLeet in Beeing strategy, which was why in 1941 the HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse were tasked to sail to the East Indies to perform in this role. The Dutch simply had no such ships in the OTL, bot in this timeline, they had, freeing the British from sending their own ships.

Secondly, the likelyhood of the Dutch Battelships being refited for tropical service might also be worthwile to mention, as the British ships lacked this sort of refits and were a floating hell for the crews sailing in them under a tropical sun. So to spare the missary of the crews in British ships, let the Dutch stay there and keep the British closer to home, to guard against the Germans (and Italians).
 
As for the secodnary enlistment of the Dutch East Indies Fleet, the two Sumatra Class cruisers already underway would be completed as in the OTL as they badly needed new cruisers, due to the lack of current equipment available. The third could be postponed and redevelopped into the Hr.Ms. De Ruyter, or something simmilar, just as in the OTL. Three additional cruisers would be fine, but likely more of a leader type, such as Hr.Ms. Tromp, than a larger type. Most attention would go to the ASW component, duobling in torpedoattacks on enemy shipping. In other words: Destroyers of the best possible type, in this case likely the Admiralen Class, who were contemporery to modern British Yarrow and Tornycroft types. Propably a larger number than the eight of the OTL would be constructed, to form at least two full flottilla's, of eight ships plus a leading cruiser each. A third Flottilla would be even better, but possibly too expensive.

Submarines were the backbone of the strategy in defending the East indies, as the territory simply was too big even for the proposed fleet. With teh submarines also a much larger Naval Airforce would be created to scout and attack enemy shipping at longer ranges. These landbased aircraft could easily cooperate with the rest of the fleet and would likely be numbering over 100 heavy planes in all, excluding fighters of the KNIL airforce for selfdefense.
 

Markus

Banned
OK, I can follow your arguments, although would it not be much easier to hold back British ships instead of calling back vessels of an ally from the other side of the world? The Dutch pressence in the East indies was primarily foccussed on Japan, who both British and Dutch considered a much more important foe, than the occasional German warship raiding in the South Atlantic. From 1939 on the Eatern Fleet was demanding more and more ships to perform its FLeet in Beeing strategy, which was why in 1941 the HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse were tasked to sail to the East Indies to perform in this role.

Yes, but I´m only thinking about the time between mid-40 to mid-41. After that Bismarck is sunk, air recon over the Atlantic has much improved and makes raiding risky, the RN has two or three new, fast BB in commission and Japan occupies southern Indo-China.
 
Yes, but I´m only thinking about the time between mid-40 to mid-41. After that Bismarck is sunk, air recon over the Atlantic has much improved and makes raiding risky, the RN has two or three new, fast BB in commission and Japan occupies southern Indo-China.


OK, that is clear now, although I still don't see why bringing ships from another part of the world makes sense economical;y, since Japan already was a serious threat and the Dutch feeled little to weaken their defenses in the East Indies.

Secondly, the other Allies France and the UK themsevles already possessed enough ships to do their jobs quite well, given the modest size of the German Navy. Since British Intelligence already could know what and how many German warships were at sea, it would be simple overkill to ask additional Dutch ships, more needed elsewhere as a political tool, than a fighting unit hunting goastships. (The British were aware of the fact that the two Deutschland Class Cruisers left were easy prey for their own cruisers, as they were not so well protected and much slower. the UK had plenty of cruisers already, although some were quite too old to be reconned effective anti raider and tradeprotectionships. The heavy cruisers were more than a match for any German heavy cruiser and only Scharnhorst and Gneisenau justified the deployement of capital ships.)

Thirdly, the British were also aware of the inoperability of the German larger warships, due to refits and engineporblems. So only the heavy cruisers Lutzow/Deutschland and later Admiral Scheer were considered likely threats, since the Admiral Hipper was known to be having troubles with her engines and Blücher was known not to be operational jet in 1940. Both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were known to be available in 1940, but given their political value, they were not to be deployed actively on the Oceans for long missions, since Germany yet lacked other capital ships. (Bismarck and Tirpitz were still fitting out, as was the heavy cruiser Prinz Eugen.)
 

Markus

Banned
OK, that is clear now, although I still don't see why bringing ships from another part of the world makes sense economical;y, since Japan already was a serious threat and the Dutch feeled little to weaken their defenses in the East Indies.

Secondly, the other Allies France and the UK themsevles already possessed enough ships to do their jobs quite well, given the modest size of the German Navy.

The Dutch would not weaken their defences much if they get the above mentioned warplanes. Same for the Brits, after arrival in the UK the Hawks went into storage for some time. The Norwegians used their Hawks and A-17 as trainers in Canada but they did not do well in this role and were repaced by Texans. Last but not least, before the occupation of the southern FIC the threat from Japan was not acute.

The RN had plenty of warships but only three fast capital ships in 1940; the BC. I also think the pocket-BB were not so easy prey for RN cruisers. HMS Exeter had been shot up pretty badly and was put out of action for a year. Would not hurt to have another two until KGV and PoW are ready.
 

Riain

Banned
Sunk by aircraft seems to me a pretty glib answer in light of what is actually involved in sinking battleships at the time. With no fighter cover, no fleet and the worst admiral in WW2 the Japanese still needed almost 90 twin engine bombers to sink Force Z. Most captial ship sinkings at sea were not so easy, indeed IOTL the Japanese attacked many of the Allied ships at Java Sea prior to the battle and only damaged them. If Japanese planes couldn't sink the USS Houston then they aren't going to be able to sink 2 or 3 fast battleships.

I think the presence of a couple (one unavailable due to refit or captured or sunk in Europe in 1940 is not unreasonable) of capital ships in the DEI will cause massive butterflies. The RNN could form a very powerful fleet in the DEI and this will be a magnet for the IJN, will the be able to invade Malaya and the Phillipines with a Dutch fleet lying in wait? Will Force Z join the DEI fleet instead of stumbling north to destruction?
 
I think the presence of a couple (one unavailable due to refit or captured or sunk in Europe in 1940 is not unreasonable) of capital ships in the DEI will cause massive butterflies. The RNN could form a very powerful fleet in the DEI and this will be a magnet for the IJN, will the be able to invade Malaya and the Phillipines with a Dutch fleet lying in wait? Will Force Z join the DEI fleet instead of stumbling north to destruction?

Adding to that, would the Japanese even have the wish to go after a combined ABDA fleet in such a scenario? It would have these three Dutch BCs, a modern British battleship (Prince of Wales), a heavily-refitted British BC (Repulse), two 8"-gunned heavy cruisers (Exeter and Houston), four light cruisers (Perth, Java, De Ruyter and Tromp) and a raft of destroyers - probably more than what Japanese surface forces could (or would want) to handle.
 
I wrote a TL something like this.

The Dutch got only the Mackensen, the other two ships not being advanced far enough to be of use. In place of the Graf Spee and the Ersatz Freya, they got the two functioning Nassau dreadnaughts, the name ship and the Posen.

They rotated in the NEI, with one of the older ships always there and the more modern ship serving as sort of a floating reserve. When the homeland was conquered, the ex-Mackensen returned and served in the British Home Fleet after a refit, but the Germans captured the Nassau and used her in the Baltic.
 

Riain

Banned
Adding to that, would the Japanese even have the wish to go after a combined ABDA fleet in such a scenario? It would have these three Dutch BCs, a modern British battleship (Prince of Wales), a heavily-refitted British BC (Repulse), two 8"-gunned heavy cruisers (Exeter and Houston), four light cruisers (Perth, Java, De Ruyter and Tromp) and a raft of destroyers - probably more than what Japanese surface forces could (or would want) to handle.


I think that Force Z and ABDA would have been too much for the Japanese forces in the area to readily handle, but that's because they were new to the area and the IJN hadn't changed their plans much to deal with them. If the RNN had a couple of BBs in the area in the years before the war they would be well integrated into the IJNs plans. But since IJN resources were so slim the assets used to deal with the Dutch fleet would have to come at the expense of some other operation. I can imagine that the IJN would allocate slender resources to deal with the Dutch ships and adding Force Z to this fleet would lead to a defeat of the IJN in the battle they planned to fight.
 
I think that Force Z and ABDA would have been too much for the Japanese forces in the area to readily handle, but that's because they were new to the area and the IJN hadn't changed their plans much to deal with them. If the RNN had a couple of BBs in the area in the years before the war they would be well integrated into the IJNs plans. But since IJN resources were so slim the assets used to deal with the Dutch fleet would have to come at the expense of some other operation. I can imagine that the IJN would allocate slender resources to deal with the Dutch ships and adding Force Z to this fleet would lead to a defeat of the IJN in the battle they planned to fight.

In other words, making Karel Doornan potentially able to strike a major blow to the IJN's plans. Japanese air power would be the big unknown. If they just hang around the DEI, Japan might have to move carriers to handle that problem, which would probably doom them at Midway, or send their forces without major air cover (and probably not enough of them), and watch them get blasted to bits by the Dutch BCs and Force Z, with Houston, Exeter, Perth, the Dutch cruisers and a few others to mop up any survivors.

Now, I can also see an interesting point here. These would be the last big guns in the Pacific on the Allied side, with the American losses at Pearl Harbor. I am thinking that these ships might want to think strategically if they beat the IJN. With the IJN having lost in the battles, the American and British units (and probably HMAS Perth) would probably want to go hook up with the American carriers which weren't scratched at Pearl Harbor. Perhaps these vessels drop the IJN forces in the DEI, then go North around the Phillippines and attack the IJN units which did NOT get into fight at Midway? If Hornet and Enterprise can provide some air cover, this big surface force could catch the Japanese second force off the mark. That fleet only had two carriers and the IJN had already taken huge losses, so this second shot, assuming that Enterprise and Hornet can cover, could finish the IJN's carrier fleet for good. I don't know how they could shut down Yamato, but the others could be beaten, and if they know where the fleet is, Nimitz and Spruance could actually pursue and destroy them. They didn't do so IOTL because Spruance figured that his cruisers would get overwhelmed by the Japanese BBs, but with Prince of Wales, Repulse and the Dutch BBs around, that might be a different story......
 
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