The Nazi - Soviet War

After thinking about CalBear's grand TL for awhile, I came up with the following idea: What if WW2 in Europe, instead of being fought by the Western Allies after the decisive defeat of the USSR, was fought after 1940 solely between the 3rd Reich and the Soviet Union?

the way I envision it, Germany could, after the crushing defeat of France, somehow get the UK to sue for peace, thus leaving only the USSR as Hitler's opponent. Stalin, seeing that Hitler has resolved the war in the West, knows that he is next and begins to prepare for the inevitable. Seeing that Hitler gets his oil from Romania, Stalin orders an attack on that nation, in which the Red Army does somewhat better than in Finland but has these successes canceled out by heavy (and rather obvious) German assistance. A sort of Cold War situation then ensues, with both the Nazis and Soviets building up massive forces for the coming war, which happens sometime between late 1942 and '44.
- Either the Germans attack and achieve partial strategic surprise like in OTL, but get bogged down due to prepared and better-organized Soviet resistance, or
- The Soviets attack the Reich on their own terms, an operation that could in my estimation achieve anywhere from moderate to no success.

What happens next is up for debate, but for the purposes of creating a TL in which an uber-3rd Reich is fought and defeated from the other side (i.e. the Soviets), I'd like to see how a scenario in which the USSR conquers National Socialist Europe in the fashion of CalBear's TL could manifest.

Thoughts?
 
You might want to define the role of the USA and Japan. Ie is the USA in a cold war with the Germans, is Japan a threat to the USSR etc ?
 
Oh, I forgot to mention the American role. It would be best if they still fight against Japan, but see it as their one conflict and are content to leave the Nazis and Soviets to fight amongst themselves so long as the British and their possessions aren't in danger.
 
Well if we're going to create a scenario where the USSR needs to single handedly defeat Nazi Germany you're going to need a few very implausible PoD's. Sea Lion succeeding and a strongly isolationist US for instance.

Nazi Germany, like in SS-GB, has successfully invaded Britain but has taken heavy losses to the extent that it can't invade the USSR in 1941. The Soviets launch an invasion of Poland in June 1941 however it bogs down into a stalemate with both sides finding they can no longer advance against the other with both retiring to sideshows such as the Soviet war against the Japanese and the German war against the remnants of the British Empire with both sides supporting the others enemy.
 
After thinking about CalBear's grand TL for awhile, I came up with the following idea: What if WW2 in Europe, instead of being fought by the Western Allies after the decisive defeat of the USSR, was fought after 1940 solely between the 3rd Reich and the Soviet Union?

the way I envision it, Germany could, after the crushing defeat of France, somehow get the UK to sue for peace, thus leaving only the USSR as Hitler's opponent. Stalin, seeing that Hitler has resolved the war in the West, knows that he is next and begins to prepare for the inevitable. Seeing that Hitler gets his oil from Romania, Stalin orders an attack on that nation, in which the Red Army does somewhat better than in Finland but has these successes canceled out by heavy (and rather obvious) German assistance. A sort of Cold War situation then ensues, with both the Nazis and Soviets building up massive forces for the coming war, which happens sometime between late 1942 and '44.
- Either the Germans attack and achieve partial strategic surprise like in OTL, but get bogged down due to prepared and better-organized Soviet resistance, or
- The Soviets attack the Reich on their own terms, an operation that could in my estimation achieve anywhere from moderate to no success.

What happens next is up for debate, but for the purposes of creating a TL in which an uber-3rd Reich is fought and defeated from the other side (i.e. the Soviets), I'd like to see how a scenario in which the USSR conquers National Socialist Europe in the fashion of CalBear's TL could manifest.

Thoughts?

One point: Hitler never envisioned Germany advancing beyond the Urals. He wanted to keep a state of permanent struggle on that border - a very childish idea really. Either he had to destroy the whole of the Soviet Union, or accept the risk of defeat. The Soviets removed much of their industrial capacity behind the Urals. I think unless the Nazis went all the way to Vladivostok, they would not defeat the Soviet Union. One point - the Soviets benefited from a lot of US aid. If that was absent their performnance would have been far less impressive.
 
Rigid U.S. neutrality is a necessity, as far as I can see. Hitler cannot invade Britain and they have no reason to sue for peace - he's the one that would be begging, since the RN can blockade German ports forever and ever. But without the U.S., Britain will have great difficulty taking any offensive action; so a stalemate could ensue. One problem with any negotiation, however, is that by this time no sane person would have trusted Hitler any farther than they could defecate on his corpse.

The idea that the Bolsheviks were even worse than the Nazis was not uncommon in Britain and America. Supposing some political changes in these countries - and/or a less openly virulent, less blatantly treacherous Nazi regime - the U.S. and conceivably even Britain might have been willing to see the Soviet Union fall, especially if the Nazis were severely drained in the process. A more cynical U.S. President might provide aid to both sides, and always a little bit more to the underdog...

If Stalin invades Romania, Hitler isn't going to (and can't) hide the fact that Germans are doing most of the fighting. If there's a lull on the Russo-German border, it's because neither side yet feels itself ready to attack. The historical Hitler would surely attack, in such a case, seeing a weakness in the enemy.
 
I was thinking that in the case of a Nazi attack as in OTL, the Americans might opt to aid the Russians for fear that the Germans might blitz them the way they did with France and Poland. But I'd like to find a way for the Americans to stay out of combat in the European war, or else it wouldn't be much of a "Nazi - Soviet War".

Germans fighting in Romania against the Russians would be totally obvious, but given Stalin's caution, I don't think he would go so far as to escalate the war to the whole of Eastern Europe, especially since any action in Romania would likely be a Pyrrhic Victory at best. The concern that Hitler would order the attack on Russia to happen is very logical and thus it is perhaps impossible for much of a "lull" to happen, other than a "sitzkrieg" style period engineered so that when Hitler does attack, it achieves strategic surprise.

However if the war begins in 1941 or 1942, that doesn't really make for an interesting TL since it'd resemble OTL too much. I'd like to see if there isn't a way to get the Reich and the USSR to have a buildup first, then get into an all-out conflict with OTL late-war weapons.

To ensure a Soviet victory, there are many strategic decisions that Stalin or his generals could have made to be more efficient, for example they could have retreated at the beginning in more bulk, not losing so many troops, or moved people as well as machines and soldiers out of territories in danger of conquest (like the Ukraine) so that they could provide assistance other than partisan fighting. However this would probably require transport that Stalin did not have much of.
 
If you want a simple way to make multiple changes in the OTL, of the sort you have suggested, change Hitler's personality.

Hitler had limited patience for military preparation and careful diplomacy. He was, you might say, a cowboy, and if he saw an indian, he'd pull the trigger without caring how many shots he had left. He was also obsessed both with the lessons of WWI and with the philosophy of Carl von Klauswitz - even with the Seven Years War. He never understood modern warfare and global power diplomacy (nor even Klauswitz). But what if he had been the military genius he believed himself to be?
 
US passing lend-lease as opposed to the previous cash and carry policy which was within 90 days of literally bankrupting the UK was a close thing. If the US does not pass LL then with some military and political changes (none are ASB) a peace where the UK accepts German dominance on the continent (as much as they would not like that) in return for all prisoners coming home and no German demands on the British Empire - say following fall of Churchill - might happen. That then leads to US very uninvolved in Europe - if England is at peace and the US is managing to keep the Nazis out of the French possessions in the western hemisphere for the moment the US will be concentrating on building up its military to defend the western hemisphere (Monroe Doctrine).

The US (or at least many elements in the US) may be more sympathetic to the USSR if they are invaded than the Nazis, but if the US does not give LL to the UK you better believe it will be cash and carry for the USSR.

A Nazi-USSR war without the UK/US involved is not IMHO totally ASB. There were plenty of folks on the US (and UK) who were not pro-Nazi, but rather were "plague on both your houses" & let the 2 nasties bleed each other
 
Last edited:
Top