"The nail that sticks out gets hammered down" - is this an unchangeable fact of Japanese society?

This proverb is usually cited as if it were a defining characteristic of Japanese society - an example of overly rigid and conformist social structures in Japan that seemingly hinder independent thinking and societal reform. Is there any way this could be different?
 
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Well do you have any specific PoD? I think you could probably eventually go far back enough to the roots of Japanese culture and make an important change, although I don’t know that much about Japan so I have no clue what that would be.

I think that maybe getting Japan to be colonized by European powers at some point could do the trick. Japanese society has been rooted in totalitarian monarchism for most of its history, and if European powers divided it up, the people of the country might be shifted to value their freedom/liberty over respect for order. Or you could just have an American invasion and massive restructuring of Japanese society a la West Germany which may or may not get the desired result.
 
Nothing in society is unchangeable. Also, there is probably a fair bit of exaggeration, to say the least, in this depiction of Japan.
 
I think that maybe getting Japan to be colonized by European powers at some point could do the trick. Japanese society has been rooted in totalitarian monarchism for most of its history, and if European powers divided it up, the people of the country might be shifted to value their freedom/liberty over respect for order. Or you could just have an American invasion and massive restructuring of Japanese society a la West Germany which may or may not get the desired result.

Wasn't State Shinto created in the 19th century during the Meiji era?

Japan may be monarchist, but Kamakura and Tokugawa shoguns were more powerful than the emperor for centuries. Totalitarianism is also recent in Japanese history if I understand it correctly. (Mussolini was the first major fascist leader in the world, and the Japanese Empire borrowed from those ideas later on.)

So as far as I can tell, "totalitarian monarchism" was not the dominant ideology in Japan for "most of its history".

Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Well do you have any specific PoD? I think you could probably eventually go far back enough to the roots of Japanese culture and make an important change, although I don’t know that much about Japan so I have no clue what that would be.

I think that maybe getting Japan to be colonized by European powers at some point could do the trick. Japanese society has been rooted in totalitarian monarchism for most of its history, and if European powers divided it up, the people of the country might be shifted to value their freedom/liberty over respect for order. Or you could just have an American invasion and massive restructuring of Japanese society a la West Germany which may or may not get the desired result.

Yes, as if colonialism has ever worked in making things 'better'.

Most likely result of this is a post-colonial Japan with lingering anti-western sentiments and is firmly in China's cultural, political, and economic orbit born of shared bitterness against western imperialism, historical ties, and cultural similarities.

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Well, I guess that's one good thing that comes out of this: the modern rift between China and Japan never develops, if anything Japan would be the loyal ally of the 'traditional' and historical (not entirely untruthfully) Asian hegemon. Assuming that Korea becomes a Russian satellite/colony ITTL, well, there's another good thing, i.e. Japanese-Korean relations again are better, if based on shared experiences of exploitation and subjugation by western imperial powers.
 
Well do you have any specific PoD? I think you could probably eventually go far back enough to the roots of Japanese culture and make an important change, although I don’t know that much about Japan so I have no clue what that would be.

I think that maybe getting Japan to be colonized by European powers at some point could do the trick. Japanese society has been rooted in totalitarian monarchism for most of its history, and if European powers divided it up, the people of the country might be shifted to value their freedom/liberty over respect for order. Or you could just have an American invasion and massive restructuring of Japanese society a la West Germany which may or may not get the desired result.
How did Western colonization improve critical thinking and liberalism in Southeast Asia?
 
Yes, as if colonialism has ever worked in making things 'better'.

Most likely result of this is a post-colonial Japan with lingering anti-western sentiments and is firmly in China's cultural, political, and economic orbit born of shared bitterness against western imperialism, historical ties, and cultural similarities.

Oh no I definitely did not mean it in the way of “Western ideas will help Japan.” I meant it more in the way of the way Indian Democracy developed. The people of Japan eventually gain their independence again and instead of turning back to their own kings and aristocrats, they turn to a democracy instead as a reaction to the years under harsh colonial rule.
 
How did Western colonization improve critical thinking and liberalism in Southeast Asia?

As I said above, I was thinking they’d go the route of something like India where they gain independence and form a democracy in opposition to their years of colonial rule. Of course, it could easily go down the road to totalitarianism like we saw in Vietnam, China, or Cambodia, but if events work correctly and they have their own George Washington then they could easily become a functioning democracy afterwards.

I was really just using that PoD because I cannot see the Japanese overthrowing their own Emperor.
 
@Monter

If anything, western colonization was the direct cause of the grieves in Hong Kong, Macau, and, to some extent, China. Hong Kong had an undemocratic form of governance which bears a large amount of resemblance to the authoritarian colonial government it was originally under and so is the case with Macau.

@Viralworld

It's way too risky of an ATL and only changes their government type, not culture. Also overthrowing the Emperor and Shogun is definitely not going to fly with the Japanese. India is a different situation because it was already fragmented, controlled by emirates which had little legitimacy to begin with, and were warring against each other. Because of this, a new social organization was necessary after colonization and there was a big push by the Indian people to replace the authoritarian government that the British instated with a more democratic and liberal form of governance.
 
Oh no I definitely did not mean it in the way of “Western ideas will help Japan.” I meant it more in the way of the way Indian Democracy developed. The people of Japan eventually gain their independence again and instead of turning back to their own kings and aristocrats, they turn to a democracy instead as a reaction to the years under harsh colonial rule.

They'd still end up anti-western, democracy or no, and conservative and patriarchal. Put another way...not so different from OTL Japan, just minus the pacifism and (assuming the monarchy goes away) a figurehead monarch. Oligarchic 'old men' and corporate cliques would still dominate Japanese government and society.

Assuming China still goes Communist...grudging American ally. Following Mao's death and again assuming China goes Capitalism with Red Flags, Japan would probably begin drifting away from America towards China.

If China stays nationalist...then Japan would probably be a Chinese satellite from the start of their 'special relationship'. Either way, assuming similar situations ITTL's 2010s i.e. expansionist/assertive China, Japan would be backing Chinese claims in SE Asia and the East China Sea, there would also likely be Chinese basing rights or visiting rights at Japanese ports and naval bases, technology-sharing and joint development of civilian and military technologies alike, Sino-Japanese (possibly even Korean) economic cooperation aimed at dominating the East Asian market at western expense, etc. Basically Japan is a loyal ally, while China is the indulgent and generous hegemon.
 
Oh no I definitely did not mean it in the way of “Western ideas will help Japan.” I meant it more in the way of the way Indian Democracy developed. The people of Japan eventually gain their independence again and instead of turning back to their own kings and aristocrats, they turn to a democracy instead as a reaction to the years under harsh colonial rule.
Well, Japan is widely, and correctly, regarded as a stable and advanced democracy, and has been so for several decades. Japanese democracy had and has problems, but it's not like Western democracies were or are flawless either.
 
As I said above, I was thinking they’d go the route of something like India where they gain independence and form a democracy in opposition to their years of colonial rule. Of course, it could easily go down the road to totalitarianism like we saw in Vietnam, China, or Cambodia, but if events work correctly and they have their own George Washington then they could easily become a functioning democracy afterwards.

This probably isn't too feasible. Historically, colonialism tended to create apparatuses that allowed for the maintenance of totalitarianism and unrepresentative government in the post-colonial stage. For instance, it's often pointed out that the pre-colonial states in Ghana such as the Fante Confederacy and Ashanti Empire were more democratic than modern day Ghana. Also popular conscience tends to be suppressed rather than elevated by colonialism thanks to divide and rule strategies as well as the use of "buffer classes," aka Europeanized native bourgeoisie that serve to undermine the development of civic nationalism.

I also would hardly call India democratic, if you've been reading the recent news about the movie Padmavaat, or the recent anti-Muslim pogroms that occur every few years.
 
Well, Japan is widely, and correctly, regarded as a stable and advanced democracy, and has been so for several decades. Japanese democracy had and has problems, but it's not like Western democracies were or are flawless either.

You’re right, but I would argue that democracy enforced at American gunpoint has left some visible scars in the way Japanese society works. The quote that OP references is, correct me if I’m wrong, a remnant from their past. I’m thinking that a Japan that throws the yoke of Monarchy off on its own would likely be a way to change the way Japanese society operates and thus fulfills OP’s question.
 
You’re right, but I would argue that democracy enforced at American gunpoint has left some visible scars in the way Japanese society works. The quote that OP references is, correct me if I’m wrong, a remnant from their past. I’m thinking that a Japan that throws the yoke of Monarchy off on its own would likely be a way to change the way Japanese society operates and thus fulfills OP’s question.
I fail to see the correlation between Republic and Democracy (with the institutional destruction that comes from colonization on top of that), Japan is more democratic than most post-colonial Asian republics according to most "freedom indexes" I can find, his only rivals are South Korea and Taiwan, which are former Japanese not Western colonies.
 
I fail to see the correlation between Republic and Democracy (with the institutional destruction that comes from colonization on top of that), Japan is more democratic than most post-colonial Asian republics according to most "freedom indexes" I can find, his only rivals are South Korea and Taiwan, which are former Japanese not Western colonies.
But the democracy there usually voted for one dominant party (LDP) most the time since the mid-1950s.

And Japanese society is usually criticized in areas such as a lag in gender equality.
In the World Economic Forum's 2014 Gender Gap Index (catchy title I know), Japan ranked 104th out of 142 countries, with pay disparity at 64% - the highest in the developed world.

Guess what is blamed for that?
Rokude Nashiko, an artist using Japanese taboo to her advantage has created a series of works challenging Japanese attitudes towards women's sexuality with toys modelled on her vagina -- most recently she made a 3D kayak of her lady bits. But, as the Japanese proverb says, "the stake that sticks out will be hammered down", and Nashiko was imprisoned and put on trial for breaching public decency laws.
 
But the democracy there usually voted for one dominant party (LDP) most the time since the mid-1950s.
And? Do you have proof that the LDP sabotaged the democratic process? It also isn't some problem "ingrained to Japanese" culture, the Swedish Social Democratic Party has dominated the elections in Sweden (duh) since the 30s and the USA have been on a two-party (with no signal that it could change) rollercoaster for a while. Why Japan is singled out in this regard, as far as needing the enlightened Westerners to loot improve their country?

That's bad (very), not going to contest that.

Guess what is blamed for that?
Err... sexuality taboo is hardly Japanese, like at all, she would get in trouble in a lot of places, including the West for that.
 
My understanding is that Japan is a "one-party democracy" but in a somewhat limited sense; the tendency of the LDP to do well in rural districts and fear of letting the JSP into power means that a lot of tendencies and platforms that would split under less pressing circumstances are stuck together*

*A bit like how in a very strongly one-party state in the US, you can have a highly uncompetitive general election but a very competitive and fractious primary election.
 
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