the Muslim Conquest of Rome and the Aftermath in Europe?

[Kcmasterpiece2]

PLEASE NOTE BEFORE READING: I've already done extensive research into how these events leading up to the conquest of Rome would have occurred. It has nothing to do with bias toward Muslims, nor Christians, but based on some very peculiar situations many countries were finding themselves in during the time.

***I am not as much looking for critique on what led to these events as I am figuring out what happens after the fall of Rome***

Hey guys,

currently I'm writing an alt-history book set in the early 50's, where the power-dynamics of the European and Asian worlds have been flipped. That being said, I'm trying to get my timeline straight as to how Europe fell and the Islamic renaissance ultimately birthed an age of intellectual and economic development for the East.

As of now, I've boiled it down to the conquest of Rome by the Ottoman Empire in 1453.



Here's some backstory. If you don't want to read skip to the war:

Essentially, the Ottoman Empire was never opposed by the Timurid horde and continued to expand under Beyazit I. By 1421, marking Beyazit's death, they had conquered Constantinople (Beyazit was sieging the city when Timur's hordes raided Anatolia IOT) expanded into Egypt and up to Tunisia, mostly over caliphal disputes between the Muslim domains.

A few wars under Beyazit's reign with Genoa and Venice saw the defeat of the merchant republics with the loss of almost all their overseas possessions which began a slow process of economic stagnation in Italy (this is c. 1416).

The Ottomans move on to conquer Naples in the 1430's, which triggers a war between the Iberian kingdoms and the Ottomans and their allies Granada and Morocco. It ends in a small victory for the Muslim powers wherein Granada reclaims Cordoba, and ties between Granada, Morocco and the Ottoman Empire grow in the ensuing aftermath (if it's any consolation to the people wondering, the Iberians did initially achieve great success in the war). On the flipside, Portugal, Aragon, and Castille create an Iberian alliance to fend off the Muslims.


The Ottoman Empire also begins to befriend the decaying Golden Horde, and helps overthrow the pretender to the current Khan as a gesture of good faith. In our timeline the Khan was overthrown which triggered their collapse a few years later. Basically, the Ottomans prop them up.

Anyway, lots of economic development for the Ottomans and North Africa, stagnation in Italy, an Iberian turn toward isolationism and war and we come to the 1440's.



the War:

Mehmet the Conqueror takes the throne and sets his sights on Rome. He begins preparations for an all-out war, meeting with his allies and calling this "the Great War," (I know its not categorically a Great War but it is for a religious world in the 15th century).

He wars in 1453, captures Rome and the Pope, and obviously the entire Catholic world declares war. A huge, 8 year long war ensues, which ends with the execution of the pope in 1453 and a giant peace treaty in 1461 with a decisive Muslim victory.

Here's the politiical situation post-war: England is in a regency council. The French prince (the son of Charles VII) died in the Great war. Emperor Albert of the HRE manages to keep the Empire together and sues for a white peace after the rest of his christian allies have fallen. Wladislaw of Poland-Lithuania died in the Carpathians, leaving the union broken and both countries in an interregnum.

The Medicis go bankrupt after the Ottomans ransom their entire estate for the return if Cosimo. They flee to the HRE and the Emperor in the ensuing chaos in Europe "federalizes" Medici banks and assets.

Europe has seen a drastic decrease in population, around 30% of european men died in the war.

Iberia loses a huge amount of land to Granada, and in reaction creates an official Iberian confederation (each King retains power however).

Much of Italy's infrastructure has been destroyed, most of the Italian economic sectors are gone, the Italians I presume seek closer ties with the HRE for protection (no shadow kingdom yet).

Poland and Lithuania are probably in the worst shape. Due to their relatively open countryside, the Golden Horde raised most of their arable land, killed a lottt of people, Poland loses Lodoramia to the Ottomans and Lithuania cedes Belarus and Ukraine to the Golden Horde, and becomes the Horde's tributary state.


Obviously, England, France, and the Kalmar Union are in a far better position than the countries on the frontier.

For the Muslim powers, the Golden horde seriously overextended itself and the Khan is very old, so pretenders and nationalists (?) are preparing to revolt.

Granada lost a good amount of its population in the war, and considering the vast swathes of Catholic land they conquered, is not in the best of positions.

The Ottoman Empire meanwhile, only directly annexed Rome. Their Christian vassals (Moldovia, Transylvania) took most of Lodoramia, and they've established a buffer state north of Rome I called "the State of North Umbria" (which I assume will revolt).

Morocco is probably in the best shape as it remained mostly untouched, but they still experience a "male population crisis" as almost every country in this war does; albiet, not to the extent of Europe or Granada.

That being said, what exactly is going to happen in the aftermath of this war? I have a good sense for the Muslim world, but Christendom is where I have absolutely no idea. Of course if you have input on the Ottomans, Golden Horde, Morocco or Granada I wouldn't mind.


Heres what I suspect so far:

Granada experiences huge revolts in its newly conquered territories.

The Golden Horde falls apart.

Morocco undergoes some serious economic stagnation.

The Ottomans experience revolts in Italy, especially Rome, and their other Catholic territories. North Umbia revolts, along with Transylvania (both catholic).

The HRE and France probably establish their own rival Catholic churches.

the Anti-Pope of Aragon is going to do something (but i have no idea what).


That's all I got. Seriously, help would be appreciated as I could really use it right now.

Thank you in advance!

(ps. I've got maps of the world before and after the war I drew to help myself remember what's going on. Let me know if you want to take a look)

 

[Nivek]

A huge, 8 year long war ensues, which ends with the execution of the pope in 1453 and a giant peace treaty in 1461 with a decisive Muslim victory.

I doubt the muslims will push for that, if the pope die he was trapped under crossfire or got directly to attack any captor, at worst he will be send a bad jail, in average he will be demanded to 'abdicate' and the Ottomans will push for a more friendly Pope but i doubt that unless provoked.

Europe has seen a drastic decrease in population, around 30% of european men died in the war.

Too much, maybe 10-15% at worst, even with the end tail of the plague.

Morocco is probably in the best shape as it remained mostly untouched, but they still experience a "male population crisis" as almost every country in this war does; albiet, not to the extent of Europe or Granada.

I hate to say this...but the Polygyny rules in Islam will help that so in short term might be polyginical marriages till population stabilize.

The HRE and France probably establish their own rival Catholic churches.

the Anti-Pope of Aragon is going to do something (but i have no idea what).

Will do something insane/Stupid mostly and maybe that would be fragmetation of the catholic church till ottomans loss italy(if they loss it at all), i doubt much revolts, some will happen, some might be sucessful but most wiill be crushed.

 

[A Most Sovereign Lady]

Just No.

 

[Koprulu Mustafa Pasha]

These kind of topics make me smile.

To answer you: there are some butterflies if there is not Battle of Ankara.

 

[Kcmasterpiece2]

I doubt the muslims will push for that, if the pope die he was trapped under crossfire or got directly to attack any captor, at worst he will be send a bad jail, in average he will be demanded to 'abdicate' and the Ottomans will push for a more friendly Pope but i doubt that unless provoked.


Too much, maybe 10-15% at worst, even with the end tail of the plague.


I hate to say this...but the Polygyny rules in Islam will help that so in short term might be polyginical marriages till population stabilize.


Will do something insane/Stupid mostly and maybe that would be fragmetation of the catholic church till ottomans loss italy(if they loss it at all), i doubt much revolts, some will happen, some might be sucessful but most wiill be crushed.

The Ottomans were provoked actually. Emperor Albert launched an assault on Krain, which the Ottomans were besieging, and after that essentially plunged into Italy. He coordinated with the French Prince, who rallied a Crusader army of various different nationalities to break through Milan (under Ottoman siege at the time) and the two linked up close toward Rome.

Mehmet Retreated behind the Po river, as the forces he commanded were smaller than the combined armies of the French Prince and the Holy Roman Emperor. The Emperor and the Prince had a dispute, and the Prince broke off before they engaged the Ottomans to siege Rome. The crusaders slaughtered an Ottoman patrol, surrounded Rome and sent the heads of the Ottoman soldiers to the garrison commander. He freaked out and ordered the execution of the Pope in response (enraged and scared of a French-Crusader breakthrough).

If you account for the overall pop of Europe I can see that. Germany would probably be far better off than Lithuania or Poland, and they were a pretty big pop center. But considering that in my mind most European men would join the crusade, and casualties were catastrophic on both sides, what makes you say that?

Yes youre right, actually polygyny in Islam is allowed in situations like this. So to be honest the Muslim states likely would fair better.

As for revolts, I can see most revolts against the Ottomans being crushed; my bigger concern is Granada. I guess with Ottoman and Moroccan assistance they could quell them?

That being said though, what do Catholics in Muslim-controlled territories even do, after the revolts are squashed? Or Europe in general as well. I'm assuming we would see some sort of mass heresy? Like an extremely decentralized, chaotic reformation?

 

[Kcmasterpiece2]

These kind of topics make me smile.

To answer you: there are some butterflies if there is not Battle of Ankara.

Haha thank you. Yes there definitely are some. I never realized how much until I took the Timurids and the Battle of Ankara out of the picture.

 

[Nivek]

The crusaders slaughtered an Ottoman patrol, surrounded Rome and sent the heads of the Ottoman soldiers to the garrison commander. He freaked out and ordered the execution of the Pope in response (enraged and scared of a French-Crusader breakthrough

This Justify that and show how that happened, that way make sense how the Pope got killed, and as say before, the ottomans will suggest the conclave to choose a more pro ottoman one.

As for revolts, I can see most revolts against the Ottomans being crushed; my bigger concern is Granada. I guess with Ottoman and Moroccan assistance they could quell them?

Pretty Easy and i see they ask for help pretty easy if the rest of iberian kingdoms try something funny.

That being said though, what do Catholics in Muslim-controlled territories even do, after the revolts are squashed? Or Europe in general as well. I'm assuming we would see some sort of mass heresy? Like an extremely decentralized, chaotic reformation?

We've the Jyzia and as long they don't make the life Muslim hard the catholic just will worship in calm if they don't rock the boat, the rest...Calvin and Luther will have a field day with catholics failures.(If they come, but a reformation wil come and be more massive)

 

[Kcmasterpiece2]

This Justify that and show how that happened, that way make sense how the Pope got killed, and as say before, the ottomans will suggest the conclave to choose a more pro ottoman one.


Pretty Easy and i see they ask for help pretty easy if the rest of iberian kingdoms try something funny.


We've the Jyzia and as long they don't make the life Muslim hard the catholic just will worship in calm if they don't rock the boat, the rest...Calvin and Luther will have a field day with catholics failures.(If they come, but a reformation wil come and be more massive)

For whatever reason I imagined the abolition of the Papacy but it is rather obvious that the Ottomans would appoint a "puppet pope" to quell the concerns of their catholic citizens. Thanks for pointing that out.

I looked into a good amount of small-scale Christian heresies of the time and I definitely do see some sort of pre-protestant heresy popping up (probably multiple different sects in multiple different regions) which will probably be somewhat easier for the Europeans to contain provided they know to "squash one heresy at a time." But I imagine some countries would turn heretical/this timeline's Protestant. The rest would probably pledge allegiance to either Avignon or the HRE (Salzburg seems like the seat in the HRE but I don't know for sure).

So it's starting to sound more like another schism, with the Holy Roman Church and French Church as the major two, then Iberian Catholicism and Ottoman Catholicism (which won't affect any catholics outside Ottoman territory I imagine).

I have a better idea of what the governments will do now, so thank you. But the looming question for me is how the loss of Rome will impact the psychology of the average peasant, or merchant etc. and how it will reform these different Catholic branches. I imagine Catholicism becoming much more militant after this war.

 

[cmakk1012]

The Ottomans do exactly as they did in Constantinople and appoint a pro-Ottoman Pope or else possibly just leave the Vatican its own city-state. It’s not worth the religious unrest to try to suppress the Papacy. As for effects on the common people, probably a turn towards local religious heads over Rome. It probably does lead to a sort of micro-Protestant movement in places like England and the HRE.

IMO the really implausible (or at least more difficult to justify) thing here isn’t the war to take Rome as postulated here—it’s the lead up with the merchant republics just completely wiped out in a few decades. There’s a reason it took centuries for Venice to get kicked out of Greece IOTL.

 

[Nivek]

I imagine Catholicism becoming much more militant after this war

Depend the region, when German might before a reformation, the french just might make their antipope the french church one and conduit business as usual with Ottomans.

Ottoman Catholicism (which won't affect any catholics

That is now the Main Roman one just not hold a candled to orthodox but might be popular in Cordoba with old spanish catholics

 

[ByzantineCaesar]

If you’re writing a book about East vs. West I do heavily recommend you read Karl Pommeranz’s The Great Divergence to better understand how Europe rose the way it did... and what you must do to revert the process. The Ottomans conquering Rome doesn’t even begin to rectify it.

 

[Kcmasterpiece2]

The Ottomans do exactly as they did in Constantinople and appoint a pro-Ottoman Pope or else possibly just leave the Vatican its own city-state. It’s not worth the religious unrest to try to suppress the Papacy. As for effects on the common people, probably a turn towards local religious heads over Rome. It probably does lead to a sort of micro-Protestant movement in places like England and the HRE.

IMO the really implausible (or at least more difficult to justify) thing here isn’t the war to take Rome as postulated here—it’s the lead up with the merchant republics just completely wiped out in a few decades. There’s a reason it took centuries for Venice to get kicked out of Greece IOTL.

Thanks for the input!

And yes, you're totally right about that actually. I detail exactly how it happens in my timeline, as it was not initially something I expected. When I write I try to let the story or timeline tell me what's happening, as cliche as that sounds. Was myself surprised that Venice fell so quickly but it had to do varying factors, like the fall of Genoa, hostilities with Austria etc. at that time.

 

[Kcmasterpiece2]

Depend the region, when German might before a reformation, the french just might make their antipope the french church one and conduit business as usual with Ottomans.


That is now the Main Roman one just not hold a candled to orthodox but might be popular in Cordoba with old spanish catholics

thanks. I think you're right, it would depend on region, I guess my major thing is I am not sure which regions would be affected. Will have to research each individually, the promince of heresies, devotion to Catholicism etc at the time.

Another good point I didn't factor for was that Christians in other Muslim states (like Iberia) would probably follow the Ottoman-Roman church. Obvious oversights like this is why collaboration is good

 

[Kcmasterpiece2]

If you’re writing a book about East vs. West I do heavily recommend you read Karl Pommeranz’s The Great Divergence to better understand how Europe rose the way it did... and what you must do to revert the process. The Ottomans conquering Rome doesn’t even begin to rectify it.

Thanks for the suggestion will definitely look into it. Though Rome isn't the only factor, just the nail in the coffin.

 

[alexmilman]

Essentially, the Ottoman Empire was never opposed by the Timurid horde and continued to expand under Beyazit I. By 1421, marking Beyazit's death, they had conquered Constantinople (Beyazit was sieging the city when Timur's hordes raided Anatolia IOT) expanded into Egypt and up to Tunisia, mostly over caliphal disputes between the Muslim domains.

A few wars under Beyazit's reign with Genoa and Venice saw the defeat of the merchant republics with the loss of almost all their overseas possessions which began a slow process of economic stagnation in Italy (this is c. 1416).

In OTL the wars between Ottomans and Venice had been going for few centuries so what is a miracle weapon that allowing the Ottomans to accomplish the task in few years?

The Ottomans move on to conquer Naples in the 1430's,

To "move" and to conquer are not the same things and how exactly are they going to conquer Naples?

which triggers a war between the Iberian kingdoms and the Ottomans and their allies Granada and Morocco. It ends in a small victory for the Muslim powers wherein Granada reclaims Cordoba

Granada was a tributary state under the Crown of Castile since XIII century. The last time they tried to change situation was in 1340 when sultan Abu al-Hasan 'Ali of the Marinid dynasty and Yusuf I of Granada had been defeated in the Battle of Tarifa (also known as Battle of Río Salado). Chance for a major military comeback century later was impossible.

The Ottoman Empire also begins to befriend the decaying Golden Horde, and helps overthrow the pretender to the current Khan as a gesture of good faith. In our timeline the Khan was overthrown which triggered their collapse a few years later. Basically, the Ottomans prop them up.

And all that while capturing Constantinople, defeating Venice and Genoa, and capturing Naples. It seems that in your world the Ottoman soldiers are growing on the trees.

Anyway, how exactly are the Ottomans getting to the Golden Horde any any noticeable numbers needed for overthrowing <whoever>?

BTW, if you are talking about the 1430's then the khan is Sayid Ahmad I who ruled between 1427 and 1455. The Great Horde did not collapse "few years later" (even his reign lasted for couple more decades): Ahmed bin Küchük "famous" for losing control over Russia ruled between 1465 and 1481.

the War:

Mehmet the Conqueror takes the throne and sets his sights on Rome. He begins preparations for an all-out war, meeting with his allies

Who are coming all the way from Granada and Volga?

He wars in 1453, captures Rome and the Pope, and obviously the entire Catholic world declares war. A huge, 8 year long war ensues, which ends with the execution of the pope in 1453 and a giant peace treaty in 1461 with a decisive Muslim victory.

The Pope lacking a sense of a self-preservation to a degree that would prevent him to flee before the Ottomans are anywhere close would be a very rare bird as far as this specific profession is involved.Anyhow, can you add some juicy details on a manner of his execution? Impaling, flaying alive, sawing in pieces? Mehmet was known for his well-developed imagination.

On a practical side, how exactly Mehmet was going to win? In OTL he was defeated in 1456 by Hunyadi at Belgrade (most of the army - crusading peasants), and in 1462 by Vlad Tepes; he was not successful against Matthias Corvinus either. And in all these cases his opponents had more than one problem to deal with. So what would be his chances against the unified Catholic Europe?

Here's the politiical situation post-war: England is in a regency council. The French prince (the son of Charles VII) died in the Great war. Emperor Albert of the HRE manages to keep the Empire together and sues for a white peace after the rest of his christian allies have fallen.

Well, England is ruled by Henry VI who, after losing the 100YW in 1453 got insane so regency is OTL and it is not clear how England is relevant, anyway.

in 1453 France just ended the 100YW and is not looking for a new major entertainment unless enemy is at the gates. Son of Charles VII: name of one of a suitable age was Louis and in 1456 he fled from Dauphiné to Burgundy (after managing to piss of his father to such a degree that he sent an army to Dauphine). So if he is killed his father issues a deep sight of a relief and in 1461 France has King Charles VIII (former Duke of Berry) instead of Louis XI. But Louis is hardly anybody's "ally" in any meaningful sense and if France is participating in that war, death of Louis means very little in the terms of a continued participation in an alliance. However, if France IS engaged, it has plenty of experienced cadres and sizable arsenal of the firearms.

Wladislaw of Poland-Lithuania died in the Carpathians, leaving the union broken and both countries in an interregnum.

I did not know that the Carpathians are anywhere close to Italy so how exactly the war was going on?

Europe has seen a drastic decrease in population, around 30% of european men died in the war.

Errrrrr..... let's start from the basics. "Europe" is a territory stretching all the way to the Ural mountains so most of it would hardly have anything to do with that schema of yours and an idea that 30% of the European MEN would be killed in that war is a little bit beyond being silly. Who would kill them?

Iberia loses a huge amount of land to Granada,

How exactly? Granada is hardly surviving.

Poland and Lithuania are probably in the worst shape. Due to their relatively open countryside, the Golden Horde raised most of their arable land, killed a lottt of people, Poland loses Lodoramia to the Ottomans and Lithuania cedes Belarus and Ukraine to the Golden Horde, and becomes the Horde's tributary state.

Sorry, just out of a pure curiosity, are we still anywhere close to the planet Earth? By that time the Golden Horde simply can not accomplish anything of the kind militarily. Then, in which form and shape "Lithuania cedes Belarus and Ukraine to the Golden Horde" and what exactly the Golden Horde is going to do with these territories, especially if Lithuania is already its tributary state? Not to mention that the GH already owns the part of (modern) Ukraine in which it is interested, the steppe part.

 

[inawarminister]

Hmm, would the Ottomans try to mend the schism and appoint a Patriarch of Rome in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople?
I fully expect the Catholics to declare a Pope, probably at Avignon - but this is going to mess with Catholic world so much it wouldn't even be funny...

How exactly? Granada is hardly surviving.

If the Turks and Moroccans as established in the opening post send armies to Granada (the former from Naples) that defeated legions and legions of Portoguese, Castillan, and Aragonian soldiers it might be doable, mind. And it seems the Maghrebis sent almost all their manpower through the strait.

The reconquista suddenly swinging the other way around would screw with Iberian exploration both to the west and east too...

 

[Kcmasterpiece2]

In OTL the wars between Ottomans and Venice had been going for few centuries so what is a miracle weapon that allowing the Ottomans to accomplish the task in few years?



To "move" and to conquer are not the same things and how exactly are they going to conquer Naples?




Granada was a tributary state under the Crown of Castile since XIII century. The last time they tried to change situation was in 1340 when sultan Abu al-Hasan 'Ali of the Marinid dynasty and Yusuf I of Granada had been defeated in the Battle of Tarifa (also known as Battle of Río Salado). Chance for a major military comeback century later was impossible.



And all that while capturing Constantinople, defeating Venice and Genoa, and capturing Naples. It seems that in your world the Ottoman soldiers are growing on the trees.

Anyway, how exactly are the Ottomans getting to the Golden Horde any any noticeable numbers needed for overthrowing <whoever>?

BTW, if you are talking about the 1430's then the khan is Sayid Ahmad I who ruled between 1427 and 1455. The Great Horde did not collapse "few years later" (even his reign lasted for couple more decades): Ahmed bin Küchük "famous" for losing control over Russia ruled between 1465 and 1481.






Who are coming all the way from Granada and Volga?



The Pope lacking a sense of a self-preservation to a degree that would prevent him to flee before the Ottomans are anywhere close would be a very rare bird as far as this specific profession is involved.Anyhow, can you add some juicy details on a manner of his execution? Impaling, flaying alive, sawing in pieces? Mehmet was known for his well-developed imagination.

On a practical side, how exactly Mehmet was going to win? In OTL he was defeated in 1456 by Hunyadi at Belgrade (most of the army - crusading peasants), and in 1462 by Vlad Tepes; he was not successful against Matthias Corvinus either. And in all these cases his opponents had more than one problem to deal with. So what would be his chances against the unified Catholic Europe?



Well, England is ruled by Henry VI who, after losing the 100YW in 1453 got insane so regency is OTL and it is not clear how England is relevant, anyway.

in 1453 France just ended the 100YW and is not looking for a new major entertainment unless enemy is at the gates. Son of Charles VII: name of one of a suitable age was Louis and in 1456 he fled from Dauphiné to Burgundy (after managing to piss of his father to such a degree that he sent an army to Dauphine). So if he is killed his father issues a deep sight of a relief and in 1461 France has King Charles VIII (former Duke of Berry) instead of Louis XI. But Louis is hardly anybody's "ally" in any meaningful sense and if France is participating in that war, death of Louis means very little in the terms of a continued participation in an alliance. However, if France IS engaged, it has plenty of experienced cadres and sizable arsenal of the firearms.



I did not know that the Carpathians are anywhere close to Italy so how exactly the war was going on?



Errrrrr..... let's start from the basics. "Europe" is a territory stretching all the way to the Ural mountains so most of it would hardly have anything to do with that schema of yours and an idea that 30% of the European MEN would be killed in that war is a little bit beyond being silly. Who would kill them?



How exactly? Granada is hardly surviving.




Sorry, just out of a pure curiosity, are we still anywhere close to the planet Earth? By that time the Golden Horde simply can not accomplish anything of the kind militarily. Then, in which form and shape "Lithuania cedes Belarus and Ukraine to the Golden Horde" and what exactly the Golden Horde is going to do with these territories, especially if Lithuania is already its tributary state? Not to mention that the GH already owns the part of (modern) Ukraine in which it is interested, the steppe part.

Alright.

While I do appreciate the response, as I clearly made note of in my question, I am not looking for critique on the buildup of this timeline, as I have already spent monnths of research, conversations with former history professors, European, Ottoman, you name it; opening craggy old books all to produce about 38 pages worth of alt-history that amount to mostly short footnotes, boring details about such and such ruler's personality and how this affects the way he governed, and small snipets of actual dialogue and critique. If you want to read those 38 pages, go right ahead, I didn't provide them because its way too much detail for anyone to go over and help me with this specific set of effects that gave me a roadblock.

 

[Kcmasterpiece2]

Hmm, would the Ottomans try to mend the schism and appoint a Patriarch of Rome in communion with the Patriarch of Constantinople?
I fully expect the Catholics to declare a Pope, probably at Avignon - but this is going to mess with Catholic world so much it wouldn't even be funny...


If the Turks and Moroccans as established in the opening post send armies to Granada (the former from Naples) that defeated legions and legions of Portoguese, Castillan, and Aragonian soldiers it might be doable, mind. And it seems the Maghrebis sent almost all their manpower through the strait.

The reconquista suddenly swinging the other way around would screw with Iberian exploration both to the west and east too...

Thank you for explaining this.

For reference, in my timeline the Ottomans and Moroccans supported the Granadan Sultan who attempted to break away from Castillian vassalage. Thats how Granada beccame independent.

 

[alexmilman]

If the Turks and Moroccans as established in the opening post send armies to Granada (the former from Naples) that defeated legions and legions of Portoguese, Castillan, and Aragonian soldiers it might be doable, mind. And it seems the Maghrebis sent almost all their manpower through the strait.

I started with question to the opening post how this could happen in anything close to reality? The Ottoman army, especially the Janissary corps, was not big: between 1400 and 1484 size of the Janissary corps raised from approximately 1,000 to 7,841 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries) and in that AH they are all over the place between Volga and Spain in the numbers making their presence meaningful. Plus, the part about an easy Ottoman naval victory is a pure fantasy and without such a victory all these naval exercises are not quite believable. Not to mention that the Ottoman "armies" could not be sent from Naples to Spain while simultaneously trying to conquer Rome, to fight (at least) Italian and HER armies, and fighting in the Carpathians.

 

[Kcmasterpiece2]

I started with question to the opening post how this could happen in anything close to reality? The Ottoman army, especially the Janissary corps, was not big: between 1400 and 1484 size of the Janissary corps raised from approximately 1,000 to 7,841 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissaries) and in that AH they are all over the place between Volga and Spain in the numbers making their presence meaningful. Plus, the part about an easy Ottoman naval victory is a pure fantasy and without such a victory all these naval exercises are not quite believable. Not to mention that the Ottoman "armies" could not be sent from Naples to Spain while simultaneously trying to conquer Rome, to fight (at least) Italian and HER armies, and fighting in the Carpathians.

Once again my man; if you want to understand why the Ottomans are so powerful, you need to read about the Ottoman Sultanate under the rulership of Beyazit, because this is the point of divergence.

At the time of the Battle of Ankara in 1402, the Timurids and the Ottomans both fielded the two largest armies in the Islamic World (accounting of course for vassals). The Ottoman army of the time numbered around 100,000 soldiers according to some estimates, with around 15-20,000 Janissaries as they controlleld a substantial amount of Balkan territory. It was the largest and most cataclysmic war in the Muslim world until the Ottoman conquest of the Mamluk Sultanate.

Without the Timurids the Ottoman army absolutely dwarfs the armies of any other Islamic power, yes even including the Mamluk Sultanate. With no cataclysmic destabilization of the Ottoman realm for almost 30 years you dont have a decrease in population, defection of vassals who provide auxiliaries, or the death of thousands of soldiers in the interregnum and then reclaimation of lost Ottoman territories. No instead you have a steadily growing number of military soldiers due to consolidation of power and population increase, only catalyzed by conquest and integration.

You ought to stop referencing dates IOT and imagine what the capacity of the Ottoman army or navy would be without the battle of Ankara.