The Muallaf of Kiev

The Koltso system will never work quite as intended- as you'll see after Vladimir's death, it doesn't work at all in the beginning. It does relieve some of the pressures that the princely practice of polygamy will bring though, which is about its only credit.

What is interesting is that it prevents the rise of regional dynasties for a time- the men at the top of each knyazivstvo (and some in the middle) are tied into the Koltso system and don't really become entrenched in one principality or another. This means that when the Kievan Rus fall into civil war, they have a general tendency to fall back in line with the Veliki Knyaz in some way or another. Even if it is long and bloody.

To those who were talking about Tsar/Sultan, I still haven't decided on what the top title will eventually become.

Next update this weekend, on the three oldest sons of Vladimir (Sviatopolk the Apostate, Mstislav the Brave and Yaropolk the Wise) and on the end of Vladimir the Great's campaign against the Pechenegs.
 
Russian peasantry were actually fairly free IOTL during this period- the Toporniks and the Skotu are going to keep this trend somewhat alive. Unfortunately, some of the trends towards large landowners are already in place, and as the Rus become more prosperous, stratification will only increase.
 
Some miscellaneous notes on Rus Islam....

-Follows the Hanafi branch of Sunni Islam
-Prohibitions against alcohol are interpreted to refer only to wine, the fermented product of grapes or date palms. Thus kvass (bread drink), mead and beer are allowed- drinking to the point of intoxication is frowned upon, however
-The five prayers a day is more strictly enforced than in other branches of Islam; in addition a sixth, night-time prayer "witr" is required
-Much like Maliki branch Muslims, Rus Muslims do not consider dogs to be ritually unclean and they are in fact, highly valued in Rus culture
-The adhan (call to prayer) and the iqama (second call to prayer) both include an extra line praying for the health of the Caliph.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
-The five prayers a day is more strictly enforced than in other branches of Islam; in addition a sixth, night-time prayer "witr" is required

I find this one unlikely, in OTL the Volga Bulgars cut the prayer down to 4 times a day, because 5 times didn't fit with the shifting daylength. The day was too short in the winter to pray so much, and in the summer it would mean that people wouldn't get enough sleep.

Beside that I would suggest changes to the Ramadan, if it followed a solar calendar rather than lunar it would fit better and lay it in the winter.

I like the other suggestions.

A comment on minorities. While unlikely to tolerate Pagans, there are a large niche open for non-Muslims as farmers. The benefit of pigs in northen Russia are simply so large that the benefit of converting (lower tax) would be smaller than the cons (forbidden to eat pig meat) for poor farmers. This mean that there likely will exist a permanent large Christian minority in the north. Ironic this will likely make the northen Muslim states a lot more stable than the southen, because of the existance of a stable tax base. In most Islamic societies the slow dwindling of the dhimmies meant that the states taxbase slowly disappeared and made a shift to tax fellow Muslim heavier necessary, something both unpopular and of question theologian legality. A stable Christian population will ensure a greater popularity and legitimicy for the regime. While this will likely become a problem by modern day, until the 18th century it won't be a problem.
 
Russian peasantry were actually fairly free IOTL during this period- the Toporniks and the Skotu are going to keep this trend somewhat alive. Unfortunately, some of the trends towards large landowners are already in place, and as the Rus become more prosperous, stratification will only increase.


Well that's what I mean in OTL russian peasentry was free but when the Rise of Moscovy became about Serfedom started to have a noticeable affect on russian society. That what I was wondering because it might Hurt kiev if this happens
 
I find this one unlikely, in OTL the Volga Bulgars cut the prayer down to 4 times a day, because 5 times didn't fit with the shifting daylength. The day was too short in the winter to pray so much, and in the summer it would mean that people wouldn't get enough sleep.

Interesting... I honestly hadn't consider that issue (and hadn't read about that practice among the Volga Bulgars. Which four prayers did they cut it down to?

Beside that I would suggest changes to the Ramadan, if it followed a solar calendar rather than lunar it would fit better and lay it in the winter.

This was something I was considering, but I honestly wasn't sure how to work it in. Any change will likely come later with it- unless the Volga Bulgars had already done this. I was considering the eventual adoption of the tabular Islamic calendar- it has less of a yearly drift than the Hijra. Problem is, it will take a good amount of time before contact with the Islamic world brings the Ishmaeli Shi'a into contact with the Rus.

I imagine, like most handlings of the calendar in the middle ages, it will simply be dealt with in an inexact and messy manner before the High Middle Ages brings about something more reasonable. They may simply try and map Hijra dates to a more workable calendar (Muslim moveable feasts)- the Runic calendar and the Bulgar calendar are really the only candidates to map onto, however.

I like the other suggestions.

Thankee.

A comment on minorities. While unlikely to tolerate Pagans, there are a large niche open for non-Muslims as farmers. The benefit of pigs in northern Russia are simply so large that the benefit of converting (lower tax) would be smaller than the cons (forbidden to eat pig meat) for poor farmers. This mean that there likely will exist a permanent large Christian minority in the north. Ironic this will likely make the northern Muslim states a lot more stable than the southern, because of the existence of a stable tax base. In most Islamic societies the slow dwindling of the dhimmis meant that the states tax base slowly disappeared and made a shift to tax fellow Muslim heavier necessary, something both unpopular and of question theologian legality. A stable Christian population will ensure a greater popularity and legitimacy for the regime. While this will likely become a problem by modern day, until the 18th century it won't be a problem.

I had already been considering the first part- the keeping of pigs really is quite essential in Northern Russia. You'll note that I mentioned that the north was a bit more hostile to the conversion than the South. That being said, I think it will be a common case of dvoeverie- many poor farmers will raise pigs even while being nominally Muslim. They'll shirk (heh) the dietary laws in doing so. The problem is that Rus Islam will be a bit more hostile to Christians than Islam elsewhere- for reasons that will be explained. (If you'd like a hint, look up Sviatoslav's wife and speculate on the Pilgrimages.... and the fact that Novgorod's knyaz, Mstislav also has the honorific the Zealous.)

So, a pluralistic state in Northern Russia may eventually come about and may eventually reap the benefits you speak of, but it will be a long hard road there. Much more likely- in my opinion- that poor farmers will simply ignore the dietary restriction. It isn't as though people elsewhere haven't found ways to do so.

Well that's what I mean in OTL russian peasentry was free but when the Rise of Moscovy became about Serfedom started to have a noticeable affect on russian society. That what I was wondering because it might Hurt kiev if this happens

..... I'm not really sure what you are asking. Social stratification will occur, I can tell you that. The abomination that OTL's Russia got? Probably not. One problem with the Koltso system is that any Knyaz usually has less of a reason to care about their current holdings- they are always dreaming about the next, better one. Depending on the Knyaz in question, you may see a lot more cases of skinning the sheep instead of shearing them, although that is after Koltso settles into tradition.
 
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As always, here and following. Some well-thought-out ideas, and agreement re: Koltso; won't work as intended, almost from the get-go.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Interesting... I honestly hadn't consider that issue (and hadn't read about that practice among the Volga Bulgars. Which four prayers did they cut it down to?

To my knowledge they diodn't remove a specific one, they removed all four and placed the other at times in the day, when it made most sense.

This was something I was considering, but I honestly wasn't sure how to work it in. Any change will likely come later with it- unless the Volga Bulgars had already done this. I was considering the eventual adoption of the tabular Islamic calendar- it has less of a yearly drift than the Hijra. Problem is, it will take a good amount of time before contact with the Islamic world brings the Ishmaeli Shi'a into contact with the Rus.

I imagine, like most handlings of the calendar in the middle ages, it will simply be dealt with in an inexact and messy manner before the High Middle Ages brings about something more reasonable. They may simply try and map Hijra dates to a more workable calendar (Muslim moveable feasts)- the Runic calendar and the Bulgar calendar are really the only candidates to map onto, however.

Honestly I think they have to move away from the lunar calendar, because it doesn't make sense in northen farming society. The harvest are based on seasons and a Ramadan falling in the harvest would spell disaster the following winter. A Ramadan in the middle of winter would make much more sense, because people doesn't work very much at that time of the year.

I had already been considering the first part- the keeping of pigs really is quite essential in Northern Russia. You'll note that I mentioned that the north was a bit more hostile to the conversion than the South. That being said, I think it will be a common case of dvoeverie- many poor farmers will raise pigs even while being nominally Muslim. They'll shirk (heh) the dietary laws in doing so. The problem is that Rus Islam will be a bit more hostile to Christians than Islam elsewhere- for reasons that will be explained. (If you'd like a hint, look up Sviatoslav's wife and speculate on the Pilgrimages.... and the fact that Novgorod's knyaz, Mstislav also has the honorific the Zealous.)

So, a pluralistic state in Northern Russia may eventually come about and may eventually reap the benefits you speak of, but it will be a long hard road there. Much more likely- in my opinion- that poor farmers will simply ignore the dietary restriction. It isn't as though people elsewhere haven't found ways to do so.

This are both interesting and quite bad news for the Islamic Rus.

Why it's interesting are because we will likely see something like a Russian version of the Yazidi evolve. Simply we will see a mix of Slavic and Norse paganism with Finnic shamanistic trait in a weak Islamic context evolve. Poor peasant isolated from the central power and lacking access to Imams, mixing their beliefs in a weak Islamic context over centuries, with the people whom doesn't follow Islamic doctrine thrieving. While this likely won't be a problem in the start, at some point Islamic purists will begin to try to purge it, and here's the problem start. These pseudo-pagans will likely thrieve and have evolve a large degree of independence from central power, so they will see this as both as a attack on their way of life and attempts to remove their freedom. Likely we will see a stubborn traditionalism evolve and the belief that they aren't Muslims.

Here's the bad news really begin, the Rus will have all the cons of having a large non-Muslim population but none of the benefits, they can't be effecient taxed, central power can't be extended over them and they will have little loyalty to the state, and the Rus Chriastians neighbours can use it as a division in Rus society, something the poor and low populated Rus will have it hard to deal with.

The good news are that these pseudo Pagans will only exist in the North Dniester and Volga watersheed, while Muslim will be the vast majority in the south (a Jewish minority will likely exist in the south). Likely urban centres will likely be the bases of Islamic culture in the north, while the country side will be mostly pseudo-Pagans.

A suggestion to a name for these pseudo-Pagans would be Slavs/Slovs (maybe with a -enians ending) to distinct themself from the urban Rus.

Of course that remind me I think we will see the Rus move faster into the Don and Volga watersheed simply because their greater focus on trade with the Persians than Greeks.
 
As always, here and following. Some well-thought-out ideas, and agreement re: Koltso; won't work as intended, almost from the get-go.

Exactly from the get-go. Just wait till I write the bit on Vladimir's three oldest sons.....

To my knowledge they diodn't remove a specific one, they removed all four and placed the other at times in the day, when it made most sense.

Hmm.... I'll probably just go along with this, but assign both an Arabic and *Kitab Russian name to them. The Witr

Honestly I think they have to move away from the lunar calendar, because it doesn't make sense in northen farming society. The harvest are based on seasons and a Ramadan falling in the harvest would spell disaster the following winter. A Ramadan in the middle of winter would make much more sense, because people doesn't work very much at that time of the year.




This are both interesting and quite bad news for the Islamic Rus.

Why it's interesting are because we will likely see something like a Russian version of the Yazidi evolve. Simply we will see a mix of Slavic and Norse paganism with Finnic shamanistic trait in a weak Islamic context evolve. Poor peasant isolated from the central power and lacking access to Imams, mixing their beliefs in a weak Islamic context over centuries, with the people whom doesn't follow Islamic doctrine thrieving. While this likely won't be a problem in the start, at some point Islamic purists will begin to try to purge it, and here's the problem start. These pseudo-pagans will likely thrieve and have evolve a large degree of independence from central power, so they will see this as both as a attack on their way of life and attempts to remove their freedom. Likely we will see a stubborn traditionalism evolve and the belief that they aren't Muslims.

Valdemar....

Worrying to the qadi, however, was the phenomenon of dvoeverie ("double faith")- many of the new converts merely saw Allah as an addition to the old deities, a new entity to pray to to get the afterlife promised as Jannah, and continued to pray to and follow the traditions of the old deities and spirits. This worrying mixture of paganism and Islam was to the educated qadis shirk- a heinous crime of blasphemy, worse even than the disbelief that had existed before. The phenomenon developed in part due to the nominal nature of the conversions in the Rus lands.

Yazidi is what I'm aiming for.

Here's the bad news really begin, the Rus will have all the cons of having a large non-Muslim population but none of the benefits, they can't be effecient taxed, central power can't be extended over them and they will have little loyalty to the state, and the Rus Christians neighbors can use it as a division in Rus society, something the poor and low populated Rus will have it hard to deal with.

The good news are that these pseudo Pagans will only exist in the North Dniester and Volga watersheed, while Muslim will be the vast majority in the south (a Jewish minority will likely exist in the south). Likely urban centres will likely be the bases of Islamic culture in the north, while the country side will be mostly pseudo-Pagans.

Well, yes and no.

Many of the Varangian elite of the North at least had a thin veneer of Christianity- and there will remain among many of them a crypto-Catholic culture. This becomes quite important in the Pilgrimage times.... in some places, this spreads to their subjects.

The topornik movement, however, also penetrated north and while they aren't the most pious of Muslims, they are rather devoted to the faith. They won't fit in with the Rus Yazidi, although most of them will be opening up the Volga basin under Mstislav rather than remaining around Novgorod and its environs. (Much as some of them will be going south for the Skotu lifestyle)

The South also includes a sizable Christian community, alongside its Jews. Some of these are Greek Rite and some of the others will be Bogromils (who survived in Bulgaria for far longer than many think)

So, while I agree that there will be a rural urban divide, I don't think it will be as bad or as clear-cut as you indicate. The Pilgrimage Era is going to hobble the North for a long time coming, I'll admit, and some of that can be attributed to the dvoeverie of the Rus Yazidi.

A suggestion to a name for these pseudo-Pagans would be Slavs/Slovs (maybe with a -enians ending) to distinct themself from the urban Rus.

While I do need a name, I don't like using "Slav" or "Slov". It smacks of Normanism to me.

Of course that remind me I think we will see the Rus move faster into the Don and Volga watersheed simply because their greater focus on trade with the Persians than Greeks.

And you are correct in thinking so.
 
While I do need a name, I don't like using "Slav" or "Slov". It smacks of Normanism to me.

Great Russians = Rusichi (sons of Rus)

Slavic tribes in the area: Vyatichi, Krivichi, Radimichi.

The area is Opolye/Zalesye; Opoltsy/Zaleschuki? Hm.

Vyatichi rhymes the best for me as there was a Vyatka Volnitsa (republic) in the late middle ages in modern-day Kirov Olbast and Komi republic.

Anyway, your pick.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Valdemar....

Yazidi is what I'm aiming for.

Fair enough of course Russia Yadizi are going to leave the north somewhat weak to Scandinavian and Teutonic expansion.
Many of the Varangian elite of the North at least had a thin veneer of Christianity- and there will remain among many of them a crypto-Catholic culture. This becomes quite important in the Pilgrimage times.... in some places, this spreads to their subjects.

Sounds interesting

The topornik movement, however, also penetrated north and while they aren't the most pious of Muslims, they are rather devoted to the faith. They won't fit in with the Rus Yazidi, although most of them will be opening up the Volga basin under Mstislav rather than remaining around Novgorod and its environs. (Much as some of them will be going south for the Skotu lifestyle)

Interesting the greater viability of the Rus Yadizi in the north may push the the more loyal converts to Islam to pushing into the Volga bassin. Likely the Toporniks will settle first, but slowly be pushed out of the north Volga watersheed by the Rus Yadizi. Not violently but simply because the RY will have lower child mortality.
The South also includes a sizable Christian community, alongside its Jews. Some of these are Greek Rite and some of the others will be Bogromils (who survived in Bulgaria for far longer than many think)

Interesting I could see the Christians more or less take up the same positionas Christian in the middle east.

So, while I agree that there will be a rural urban divide, I don't think it will be as bad or as clear-cut as you indicate. The Pilgrimage Era is going to hobble the North for a long time coming, I'll admit, and some of that can be attributed to the dvoeverie of the Rus Yazidi.

No it won't be as clear cut, but to a some extent it will. Urban population are unlikely to adopt Rus Yazidism, it's harder to hide their breaking of tabooes, mopst of the major land owners will likely be Muslims, along the major trade routes too the population will be mostly Muslim, but among the more isolated poor villages, Islam are going to be quite rare.

While I do need a name, I don't like using "Slav" or "Slov". It smacks of Normanism to me.

I don't quite understand the hostility to Normanism at least if people don't make it too extreme, much of the Rus trading network wouldn't make sense without the connection to Scandinavia, the rituals of the Varangians by Arabic travellers fit quite well with Scandinavian pagan rituals. We even has the name Roslagen in Sweden. Simply the connection between Scandinavia and the Rus seem to fit. Of course it goes both ways, several Scandinavian names are of Slavic origin, Valdemar as example come from Vladimir. The idea of summon a ruler from outside the realm also make perfect sense, it's the reason Germans ended up on most thrones in Europe, to ensure that the new ruler didn't have loyalty to specifict local nobel families.
 
I don't quite understand the hostility to Normanism at least if people don't make it too extreme, much of the Rus trading network wouldn't make sense without the connection to Scandinavia, the rituals of the Varangians by Arabic travellers fit quite well with Scandinavian pagan rituals. We even has the name Roslagen in Sweden. Simply the connection between Scandinavia and the Rus seem to fit. Of course it goes both ways, several Scandinavian names are of Slavic origin, Valdemar as example come from Vladimir. The idea of summon a ruler from outside the realm also make perfect sense, it's the reason Germans ended up on most thrones in Europe, to ensure that the new ruler didn't have loyalty to specifict local nobel families.

"Normanism" is the idea that the only thing that made the civilization of the Rus was the settlement of ethnic Germans. Its an ugly aspect of historiography you see in a lot of places and I am not a fan.

While there certainly was a good deal of Scandinavian influence, the Rus were majority Slavic and the biggest genetic influence wasn't even Scandinavian; it was Finno-Ugric.

In that vein, I'm kind of considering Chuzhna- an adaptation of an ethnonym for a people in Estonia and, possibly, further afield. The term's derivatives IOTL came to take on the meaning of "odd, foreign, wonderful, attractive." The similarity in usage to English fair and fey just makes it hard not to use for a group of pagans. That said, I'll be considering RGBs suggestions as well.... and Rusichi is too awesome to pass up.
 
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