The most wonderful coincidence?

Suppose Hitler, Goering, Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky had all died in 1916 would the world have been a significantly better place, and how much of the benefits, if any, would have come down to 2012? Anything like the Holocaust, the USSR, PRC, or WWII as we knew them?

If we make it earlier than 1916 it may be too easy, afterwards, damage will be done that could be avoided. So 1916.........

You could certainly kill Hitler, Himmler and Goering in 1918/1919 by extending the war a year. Hitler would have returned to the trenches. Himmler would have finished training and gone to active service. Goering's life span as commander of the aerial squadron could not have been indefinite

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
There's a good chance that Germany and Russia go fascist or communist, but it's almost impossible to tell if they commit any atrocities like OTL. There were plenty mad men in the Nazi and communist party that could take the power at some point.

You could certainly kill Hitler, Himmler and Goering in 1918/1919 by extending the war a year. Hitler would have returned to the trenches. Himmler would have finished training and gone to active service. Goering's life span as commander of the aerial squadron could not have been indefinite

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
No need to extend the war a year actually - Hitler could have died during the Great War, or later during the Beer Hall putsch. Goring was also wounded during the beer hall putsch - perhaps he could also die at this point. Himmler was a farmer until the late 1920s so without the nazi party around he will probably continue breeding hens.
 
Suppose Hitler, Goering, Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky had all died in 1916 would the world have been a significantly better place, and how much of the benefits, if any, would have come down to 2012? Anything like the Holocaust, the USSR, PRC, or WWII as we knew them?

If we make it earlier than 1916 it may be too easy, afterwards, damage will be done that could be avoided. So 1916.........

Yeah, I'm going to say that those guys were pretty much uniquely evil (well, maybe not Goering and Trotsky, who were more garden variety evil). Actually you probably get significant changes with just killing Lenin and Hitler. Without them, Russia probably goes socialist but not red communist, which was absolutely dependent on Lenin's ruthlessness. And without them, Germany probably goes fascist, but not totalitarian jew-killing Nazi, which was absolutely dependent on Hitler's perverted genius and personal ideology. Lots of people still die, lots of disorder, but much better than OTL.
 
Yeah, I'm going to say that those guys were pretty much uniquely evil (well, maybe not Goering and Trotsky, who were more garden variety evil). Actually you probably get significant changes with just killing Lenin and Hitler. Without them, Russia probably goes socialist but not red communist, which was absolutely dependent on Lenin's ruthlessness. And without them, Germany probably goes fascist, but not totalitarian jew-killing Nazi, which was absolutely dependent on Hitler's perverted genius and personal ideology. Lots of people still die, lots of disorder, but much better than OTL.

Hell, Jews probably serve honorably in the Army and the Party. Imagine them German atomic and rocket scientists.
 
You could certainly kill Hitler, Himmler and Goering in 1918/1919 by extending the war a year. Hitler would have returned to the trenches. Himmler would have finished training and gone to active service. Goering's life span as commander of the aerial squadron could not have been indefinite

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Now why extend the war? Hitler and Goering can easily be killed in 1916. And nobody could made the USSR both so vile and so powerful as Lenin, especially with Stalin and Trotsky.
 
Now why extend the war? Hitler and Goering can easily be killed in 1916. And nobody could made the USSR both so vile and so powerful as Lenin, especially with Stalin and Trotsky.

Well NOT extending the war means you are looking for multiple PoDs. Extending the war gives ONE reliable reasonable PoD that does all this.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Hell, Jews probably serve honorably in the Army and the Party. Imagine them German atomic and rocket scientists.

Sure, you probably have an offical German National Synagogue Organization to better organize German Jewry in the service of the State.

OK, with that and the atomic scientist thing, I'm officially scaring myself here.
 
Sure, you probably have an offical German National Synagogue Organization to better organize German Jewry in the service of the State.

OK, with that and the atomic scientist thing, I'm officially scaring myself here.


So you have an autocratic, militant German government rekindling the spirit of Bismark, inspiring the best that German professionals have to offer to help rebuild their beloved nation.

Just as Jewish young men in German universities sought eagerly to get dueling scars just like their gentile peers, Jewish professionals will go the distance to strive alongside their fellow Germans, and do so giddy with the prospect of acceptance by same.


In Russia: Without Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin, it could go in a number of directions.

Ideally, Russia emerges with a dedicated Democratically-elected parliament, committed to striving forth in the name of a modern, liberalized Russia, including opportunity sprung forth for ex-serfs and so on. The Romanovs are politely exiled. The Russian intellectual might is harnessed to building A New Society for this unique colossus of Europe and Asia to inspire the world with.

Not Ideally: Czarist reactionaries kill Russian democracy in its cradle, the Duma is massacred, the more liberal-minded Romanovs are slaughtered in a way to make it look like "dangerous radicals" committed the act, and a regime remniscent of Ivan the Terrible with a savagely resurgent Oprichnina ( http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/430289/oprichnina ) filling the nightmare shadows of the Russian psyche...

The pogroms take a harsh turn with increased scale, frequency and ferocity. At a certain point, scalding reports of the atrocities are a scandal to German intellectuals and soldiers alike, and the German leadership resolves that something must be done to teach the eastern savages a lesson in civilization that they will not soon forget.

After a prolonged combination of fierce raids, partial occupation, re-education programs, diabolical tales of collaboration and double-cross, German scientists ruefully conclude that a Final Solution must be arranged for these savage heirs of the implacable Tatar hordes.

Bomba_atomowa.gif
 
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Anyone would be better than Mao. The KMT was both incompetent and corrupt. Mao's actions lead directly to the death of between 40 and 70 million people in the Great Leap Forward. Add to that the deaths and destruction of the Cultural Reovultion, the hundreds of thousands of landlords murdered in cold blood in the early days, the institution of the laogai system, and more. No matter how bad the KMT was, they had nothing in their ideology to allow for that sort of total revolution of society.

In my opinion, asking if a KMT China would have been better than a CCP China is like asking if it's better to be shot in the foot or the brain. Neither one is what you'd want, but one is still a whole lot worse.

Better Mao then the Japanese.
 
Better Mao then the Japanese.

I'm not really sure why you felt the need to say this. I was answering a question about whether or not a KMT China would be better than a Maoist China. Would you have been happier if I said "Anyone (with an actual chance of ruling China) is better than Mao"?
The Imperial Japanese had no chance of controlling all of China. That doesn't change whether Mao or CKS are there or not.
 
Probably not, think more Franco than Hitler. Yes there would probably be people who disappeared and an uptick in anti-Semitism but blaming the Jews was an old European pastime so it doesn't automatically translate into death camps.


IMHO you nailed it. Bad stuff would happen. But it would almost seem heavenly to what did happen. The right five people terminated as late as 1916 does it, as everyone should know. Just one or two might do it.
 
Well NOT extending the war means you are looking for multiple PoDs. Extending the war gives ONE reliable reasonable PoD that does all this.

Best Regards
Grey Wolf


Multiple POD's maybe but so what? Ok, you want to play? Take this, they all die at the same instant. You want one POD, you got one POD for sure. POD does just refer to time, doesn't it? An instant is an instant.
 
You could certainly kill Hitler, Himmler and Goering in 1918/1919 by extending the war a year. Hitler would have returned to the trenches. Himmler would have finished training and gone to active service. Goering's life span as commander of the aerial squadron could not have been indefinite

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

But who says any of them would actually die?
 
I'm not really sure why you felt the need to say this. I was answering a question about whether or not a KMT China would be better than a Maoist China. Would you have been happier if I said "Anyone (with an actual chance of ruling China) is better than Mao"?
The Imperial Japanese had no chance of controlling all of China. That doesn't change whether Mao or CKS are there or not.

Well i just wanted to point out there where worser things that could have happened then Mao. There was at least something they did right. Same goes for Stalin for example.
 
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