The Mohawk/Iriqouis lose

In OTL the Mohawk pushed the Mahicans out of upstate New York in 1628, thereby gaining access to Dutch (later British) guns. The Iroquois then pushed out out of their home in New York in the 1640s and 1650s and depopulated huge swathes of territory across the great Lakes. The Huron, Neutrals, Erie, the Shawnee and the Ottawa, plus various tribes from Ohio that are not known today (the blank spot you see on native American language or tribe maps in Ohio, is due to the Iroquois war). A mass diaspora to the western great lakes was one of the other major effects of the Iroquois war. The French with their Huron allies gone also suffered a major blow to their power and influence. The war only stopped when the Iroquois retreated back to new York after overextending themselves. They had gained a huge boost to their population due to captives (Northeastern Native American tribes usually incorporated captives into their tribe), and quite a bit of land.

The Iroquois war was probably inevitable, due to the mourning raids. The Iroquois traditionally went on raids to avenge deaths and give more strength to the tribe (yes, even natural deaths). Disease had cut their population in half, and therefore the raids had to be larger and faster, more wide ranging. But it didn't have to be as bad as it was.

So WI that went differently? I have two scenarios:
1) WI the Mohawk had not been able to defeat the Mahicans in 1628?
or
2)WI the Iroquois had been defeated in their rampage around the great lakes in the late 17th century/early 18th century.

In scenario 1) the Mohawk will have to be distracted by another tribe (I'm thinking the Huron) so that the Mahicans can gather the strength and then push the Mohawk to a stalemate. When that happens the Iroquois are likely to be squeezed. The tribes around them had access to British (the tribes to the south and east) and/or French guns (to the north and west). Therefore the Huron are likely to push in from the North and the Erie, Neutrals and others from the west. It's interesting to note that after moving to Connecticut the Mahicans moved to Wisconsin.

In scenario 2) the only way I'm seeing this happen is if the French go back on their policy of only having Christian Indians get guns. I don't think thats very likely, so perhaps if the Huron became more Christianized? Or in OTL the Huron were also the worst affected by disease. WI the Iroquois were also effected by a plague of smallpox in that era. If any of these situations happen, its critical to know when it happens. If the Iroquois are stopped early (i.e 1646, during the initial Seneca and Mohawk aussalt) then the Hurons will survive and things will probably revert to the status quo. If it's stopped later (i.e 1647-1655) then the Huron will have already scattered and the Ottawa and Nipissings will already be heavily battered. Later and the only effect is less migration to Wisoconsin and better winters for those there.

In all scenarios and sub-scenarios except the late end to the war, a major effect will be the level people in the Ohio. Settlers didn't realize it, but the Ohio they moved in to was the result of depopulation and then resettlement by other tribes, and the descendants of refugees. Therefore when settlers in ATL arrive they will find a more vibrant Ohio, with more villages, more cultures and less fractured. It is likely that there will be more alliances by the western tribes against settlers.
 
Are you looking for PODs for the scenarios, or are you looking for the results of the scenarios?

I'll just shoot from the hip here with a few scattered thoughts.

King Philip's war was a near run thing. The war still holds the "honor" of having the highest casualties (expressed as a percentage of the population) of any fought by North American / Europeans. Early in the conflict Metacom (a.k.a. King Philip) sent a group of 400 indians to try and enlist the help of the Mohawk. The Mohawk, instead, ambushed and killed them. If Metacom had kept these 400 warriors, or if he could have gained more support from either the Mohawk or Mohicans, then the Puritans would have been forced out of Massachusetts.

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WI better relations with the Huron?
Mohawk raids on Huron shipments of furs was escalating and the French brokered an agreement where both tribes could hunt furs, trade, and share profits. The Huron agreed to this, but the next year they did not honor the agreement. This sparked the greater Mohawk-Huron war. If the agreement had been honored then conflict may have been avoided and both the Huron and the Mohawk would be more numerous is subsequent times.

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Six Nations instead of Five.
I don't really understand why the Huron were not part of the Five Nations. The Huron were Iroquian, like the others. The Great Peacemaker (Deganawida) who forged the Five Nations was himself a Huron. So why wasn't the Huron part of the deal? If they could have been part of the Five (Six, or Seven, or whatever) Nations from pre-contact times then the Indians would have faired much better.

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In the ARW up to a third of the American forces were used to combat Indians. A reduced Iroquois would mean that these forces could be used against the British instead, perhaps ending the war sooner. (hmm . . . If the ARW ended sooner there would be less war debt - and Hamilton's efforts to have the federal government to assume the debt would have failed - and the US would have a much weaker federal government - and the Union would have split early on. Sorry, I digress).
 
Are you looking for PODs for the scenarios, or are you looking for the results of the scenarios?
A discussion and possible PODs for the event that the Iroquois are not the major power in the Ohio in the late 17th and early to mid 18th centuries.

King Philip's war was a near run thing. The war still holds the "honor" of having the highest casualties (expressed as a percentage of the population) of any fought by North American / Europeans. Early in the conflict Metacom (a.k.a. King Philip) sent a group of 400 indians to try and enlist the help of the Mohawk. The Mohawk, instead, ambushed and killed them. If Metacom had kept these 400 warriors, or if he could have gained more support from either the Mohawk or Mohicans, then the Puritans would have been forced out of Massachusetts.
Interesting, I hadn't thought of that at all. Would the Mahicans be likely to help Metacom? I think so, which would man that the British would also be facing a threat along the Hudson. A definite setback for the British, although the Mahicans are not likely in my view to directly help his rebellion in New England, so they can deal with the British on the Hudson.

WI better relations with the Huron?
Mohawk raids on Huron shipments of furs was escalating and the French brokered an agreement where both tribes could hunt furs, trade, and share profits. The Huron agreed to this, but the next year they did not honor the agreement. This sparked the greater Mohawk-Huron war. If the agreement had been honored then conflict may have been avoided and both the Huron and the Mohawk would be more numerous is subsequent times.
I'm not so sure. The Mohawk and the Huron were traditional enemies, and the Seneca were the ones who led the major raid in 1646 on the Huron (although they did enlist the Mohawk). The conflict between the two might be inevitable. Although if they both survived that would be a stronger challenge to European authority in the west...

Six Nations instead of Five.
I don't really understand why the Huron were not part of the Five Nations. The Huron were Iroquian, like the others. The Great Peacemaker (Deganawida) who forged the Five Nations was himself a Huron. So why wasn't the Huron part of the deal? If they could have been part of the Five (Six, or Seven, or whatever) Nations from pre-contact times then the Indians would have faired much better.
The Huron are actually their own league (like the Iroquois and many other Northeastern tribes), although it's unclear whether there were four or five tribes. They also were later joined by the Petuns, who lived on the southern edge of Georgia Bay. That's probably why they never joined. Although the effects of the two joining would have been very interesting. They would have controlled all access along the eastern Great Lakes from Europeans. If we assume that the butterfly effect doesn't come into play then, the Huron/Iroquois will be taking guns from the French and Dutch, then later the English. This is a very interesting (if unlikely) scenario.

In the ARW up to a third of the American forces were used to combat Indians. A reduced Iroquois would mean that these forces could be used against the British instead, perhaps ending the war sooner. (hmm . . . If the ARW ended sooner there would be less war debt - and Hamilton's efforts to have the federal government to assume the debt would have failed - and the US would have a much weaker federal government - and the Union would have split early on. Sorry, I digress).
Perhaps not. They may have to put more troops against the Indians, due to a more densely populate Ohio, and considering that I don't see a reason why British policy towards the Indians of the NW would change, then most of those tribes will be against the Americans.
 
For scenario 1 -

OTL as I understand it:
The Mohawk and the Mahicans were frequently at war with each other but the Mahicans were able to keep the upper hand. Around 1610 the Dutch arrive and start trading with the Mahicans. The Mohawks start fighting again but the Mahicans are easily able to resist (partly due to firearms supplied by the Dutch).

The Dutch considered all this fighting to be bad for business so they (twice) broker a peace between the tribes. The Mohawk are allowed access to Dutch trade through these agreements and so get some guns for themselves. The beaver supply starts running low so the Dutch encourage the Mahicans to trade with more northern tribes for pelts. These northern tribes are long-time enemies of the Mohawk so the Mohawk are angered and start another war 1624-1628. This time the Mohawks have guns of their own and are able to defeat the Mahicans.

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OK. The Dutch just want to trade. In retrospect it is clear the the Mohawk made trade in the region much more difficult. Lets say that, early on, the Dutch realize that the Mohawk will be a problem. So instead of brokering peace agreements, the Dutch decide to side with the Mahicans from the start. The Mohawk can't get guns so they are unable to defeat the Mahicans. Without Dutch guns the Mohawk can't defeat the Huron either. After several defeats, family units start to leave the Mohawks and join other tribes.

This gets rid of the Mohawk as major players, but doesn't do much about the other Iroquois tribes.
 
Without Mohawk guns, wouldn't the other tribes be pressed by expanding Hurons and other tribes?
 
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