The Mesoamerican Crusaders

At the dawn of the 14th century, the Templar Order was in serious trouble. Continual losses in the Holy Land had weakened the Order's prestige throughout Europe. It's financing activities, which had brought it such wealth, was drawing the eyes of the French king. Finally, the Order's private nature was turning the public against it.

Order records show that Grand Master Jacques de Molay was aware of the growing storm against the Order. He was also aware that King Philip of France was looking for an excuse to get rid of the Order in order to escape the high debt that the king had created during his wars with the English. Both king and grand master meet in Paris on June 24, 1307 where Jacques offered the king a tempting deal. In exchange for canceling the king's debt and the monetary assets of the Order, the king was to provide ships and supplies to the Order for a crusade. After a few days of debate, the king agreed to the deal. French records from King Philip's reign show that he believe that the cost of both ships and supplies was less than the cost of forcibly dismantling the Order.

The next year for the Order was spent preparing for the 'Great Templar Crusade' as Molay's proposed crusade became known throughout Europe. Originally, Molay wanted the crusade to be launched towards either Anatolia or Egypt with the ultimate goal of reconquering Jerusalem. However, the target of the crusade changed early in the planning stages to Mali. This surprising change was believed to have been caused by two reasons. First, rumors of the wealth and the number of people that were supposedly protected from invasion by the Sahara offered itself as a potential base from which the Order could expand and gain the resources needed to take on the Mamelukes and Mongols. Secondly, there was the desire for the Order to have its own land like the Hospitallers and the Teutonic Knights.

On April 15, 1308 the Order sailed from Bordeaux to start its crusade. A week later, the Order's fleet stopped in Lisbon where it took on additional men and supplies. When leaving Lisbon the Order's had the following personnel: 1,746 knights with horses, roughly 2,500 squires, around 10,000 sergeants and foot soldiers, an estimated 1,000 support personnel, and the ships' sailors. The support personnel of the crusading fleet includes doctors, blacksmiths, and priests. Livestock in the form of cattle, chickens, goats, and pigs were also brought along. Order records shows that this unusual transportation of live animals was done for several reasons. First, it was to assure the men that they'd have a christian diet in the face of rumors about what the people of Mali ate. Also, the Order wanted to be able to start food production quickly if the crusade took more time than hoped for.

Molay ordered the fleet to sail parallel to the African coast, but out of sight of land in order to avoid confrontations with the Moors. Poor navigational instrumentation of the time and two rough storms resulted in the fleet becoming lost. Opinions within the fleet on where they should sail became divided. Portuguese sailors from Lisbon proposed sailing east certain that such a course would return them to land. However, the french sailors proposed that the fleet follow the sea current to return to land. After several days of meditation, Molay decided to follow the advice of the french sailors.

On July 13, 1308 the Order fleet was in a state of near mutiny. By this point it was widely known that the french suggestion was in error. However, the fleet had not reversed course because they didn't have the supplies. At high noon the lookout on one of the ships, the precise ship is unknown because of differing accounts, spotted land. This was the island of Sarcalogos Misericordia* (Christ's Mercy). It was here that the Old World was to meet the New World.

*RL Hispaniola
 

Zioneer

Banned
No offense but I see such a large offensive as ASB

You should probably explain why you think it's ASB, and what he could do to make a similar event less ASB.

As for my part, I'd have to partially agree with Sa'id. A Crusade to Mali with such a massive force would be too intensive, especially for a French Kingdom that just finished absolving it's debts.

Plus, did Europe know that much about Mali at that point in time?
 
Going onto Mali? The number of boats and armed men involved? It seems a little too high for an organization that's in decline.
 
By decline is meant the Templars were losing popularity in Europe due to people losing interest in crusades because of repeated losses and conflicts closer to home. This meant that the Templars weren't receiving nearly as many recruits as they used to. In their hayday, the Templar Order had over 20,000 members. The Templars were still important, but more as an economical force which required a good deal of organization.

All together, the Templar Crusade has around 15,000 men not counting the sailors on the ships. This makes the Templar Crusade one of the largest offensives organized by Medieval Europe, but not the largest. The Princes Crusade 200 years earlier had between 25 - 30,000 men for example.

Do the Templars know where Mali is? The answer is: not exactly. This is over 30 years after Musa made his pilgramage showcasing his wealth so I don't see why the Europeans wouldn't have heard of Mali. Remember, Mali was connected to Morocco by trade and sometimes by having the same ruler. It is certainly within the realm of the possible for the Europeans of the early 14th century to know of Mali like they know of places like China and India. They've got the general direction and know its rich, but that's about it.

Now let me address those ASB charges. This situation, at least to me, falls into the realm of 'How on Earth did they pull that off?'. These are situations that almost seem ASB in real life, but one can find some reasons and a lot of luck to explain how it was accomplished. There are four examples of this that I can think of off the top of my head: the Arab conquests in the 7th century, the First Crusade, the Mongol Conquests, and the Conquistadors. Speaking of the conquistadors, I want to state right now that Templar expansion in Mesoamerica will be slower than the Spanish expansion.
 
Now let me address those ASB charges. This situation, at least to me, falls into the realm of 'How on Earth did they pull that off?'. These are situations that almost seem ASB in real life, but one can find some reasons and a lot of luck to explain how it was accomplished. There are four examples of this that I can think of off the top of my head: the Arab conquests in the 7th century, the First Crusade, the Mongol Conquests, and the Conquistadors. Speaking of the conquistadors, I want to state right now that Templar expansion in Mesoamerica will be slower than the Spanish expansion.
Templar expansion would in Mesoamerica at all would be ASB. There is no way they can receive reinforcements and supplies as the Conquistadors of OTL did, having a base on Cuba. The Spanish had significantly better weapons and armor, and it was still immensely difficult and only pulled it off by sheer luck. The political situation that allowed the Conquistadors to actually win anything at all simply does not exist at this time. The attitude of the Templars would be much, much less pragmatic than the Conquistadors and certainly inhibit them. Must I go on? Yes, some real life events can seem "ASB", but you are taking one of those and making it somehow far, far less likely than it already was.
 
Templar expansion would in Mesoamerica at all would be ASB. There is no way they can receive reinforcements and supplies as the Conquistadors of OTL did, having a base on Cuba. The Spanish had significantly better weapons and armor, and it was still immensely difficult and only pulled it off by sheer luck. The political situation that allowed the Conquistadors to actually win anything at all simply does not exist at this time. The attitude of the Templars would be much, much less pragmatic than the Conquistadors and certainly inhibit them. Must I go on? Yes, some real life events can seem "ASB", but you are taking one of those and making it somehow far, far less likely than it already was.

Normally, I would ask for you to wait and see what I do. The Templars aren't going to rule all of Hispanic America in a decade. However, I felt it necessary to address certain points you've brought up.

Reinforcements: neither Cortez or Pizarro got reinforcements during their conquests or for the initial couple of years they were in charge. Secondly the two men each had very few European forces. I've set the Templars up with more than 10 times the forces both Conquistadors had combined.

Technology: In weapons technology the Conquistadors weren't that much more advance than the Templars. Cortez's men only had 15 matchlock smooth bore muskets during the conquest. These guns were slow, inaccurate, slightly dangerous to the user, and really good at causing fear in the enemy. At this time Europe had the hand cannon which was a gunpowder weapons that was even more inaccurate and dangerous to handle than the matchlock, but just as good at causing fear. Both the Conquistadors in real life and the Templars in this story will mainly be using steel weapons in their conquests.

Political situation: The Conquistadors were able to utilize unrest in the empires that they conquered. Around the early 1300s, there is no empire dominating mesoamerica. This was an era when the various city-states were vying for power. Thus, the Templars will not have a major unified enemy to face when they step into the ring.

Pragmatism: All I'll say is repeated attempts to become allies with the mongols.
 
Normally, I would ask for you to wait and see what I do. The Templars aren't going to rule all of Hispanic America in a decade. However, I felt it necessary to address certain points you've brought up.

Reinforcements: neither Cortez or Pizarro got reinforcements during their conquests or for the initial couple of years they were in charge. Secondly the two men each had very few European forces. I've set the Templars up with more than 10 times the forces both Conquistadors had combined.

Technology: In weapons technology the Conquistadors weren't that much more advance than the Templars. Cortez's men only had 15 matchlock smooth bore muskets during the conquest. These guns were slow, inaccurate, slightly dangerous to the user, and really good at causing fear in the enemy. At this time Europe had the hand cannon which was a gunpowder weapons that was even more inaccurate and dangerous to handle than the matchlock, but just as good at causing fear. Both the Conquistadors in real life and the Templars in this story will mainly be using steel weapons in their conquests.

Political situation: The Conquistadors were able to utilize unrest in the empires that they conquered. Around the early 1300s, there is no empire dominating mesoamerica. This was an era when the various city-states were vying for power. Thus, the Templars will not have a major unified enemy to face when they step into the ring.

Pragmatism: All I'll say is repeated attempts to become allies with the mongols.
Cortez was reinforced by the army of Narvaez from Cuba prior to making his final march on Tenochtitlan. Also, they won by getting the Aztec Empire's enemies and unhappier vassals to march with them, and it was those native allies that did most of the work of conquering Mexico. However, at this time there is no Aztec Empire threatening Tlaxcala, or any severely oppressed vassal states looking for a way out. Hell, there weren't even any major wars or states with ambitious aspirations as to becoming an empire that would warrant recruiting people they'd surely by repulsed by as barbarians. Thus, the Templars will have no major unified allied force to do all the hard work for them. They have to carry all the supplies on their own, fend off all the natives alone, do everything alone. And they are many times further from home than the Spanish were. To the Spanish, Cuba, although not exactly home, was close enough and offered a way there. The Templars will never see Europe again, that much is certain. They will most likely either all die, or simply most or many die and the rest assimilate with the natives.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Honestly if a such a fleet end up in the new world, they would likely set up base in the Carbbian before spreading, and it would take decades. Beside that we would likely see attempts to recontact Europe, which would be quite possible when they knew a land lay across the sea.

But I think they start with conquering the Caribbian states and set up monasty-states there. The will likely loosen the celibacy, and some of the knights will set up personal estates. We will likely first see a attempts at conquest of the mainland decades or centuries later.
 
The celibacy only applied to the Knight-Brothers and priests, the vast majority of the Militant Orders fighting force throughout their history were non-ordained Knights and sergeants so that won't be a problem.
 
More problems coming as I think this through more. Firstly, I'm not sure how all 15,000 men even make it to the New World in any case. Assuming they do, you mentioned they had no supplies. Sustaining a force of that size in an alien land they've never seen the likes of before would get extremely tricky. Mutiny is a near-certainty. The Spanish had the promise of gold and riches to keep them going. Templars don't have even that. If they land in Florida, Cuba, or Nicaragua or whatever they find themselves in wilderness with few natives and no reason to keep going. That said, they'd also have little hope of returning home. Cortez had an idea of what he was doing. Columbus had few enough men that this wasn't enough of a problem to keep him from returning. Even assuming the Templars find civilization. How will they understand them? Would they even try to learn the local lingo? Cortez had the benefit of meeting two castaways who were kept by the Maya and learned their language. The Maya are not likely to bear the same friendliness towards the Crusaders initially. 15,000 heavily armed men is not a threat they'll take lightly. Although the number in all likelihood would be significantly less. And even then, who's gonna help them conquer the land assuming they still want to and miraculously learned the language of some locals?
 

J.D.Ward

Donor
Isn't Hispaniola far too far West for the first landing ?

Their route is more or less that of Cabral, which would take them to Brazil, or if they are further north, in the latitude of the Caribbean, they should make landfall in either the Lesser Antilles or, as Columbus did, the Bahamas.
 
Personally I want to see where this goes before jumping down the OP's throat.

Though I'd actually think maybe Brazil would be a more likely place for them to end up in this scenario. Which would be territory that gets much less explored than Mesoamerica. Templars invading the Amazon river states... Anyway, it's pretty interesting.

Actually, even just Templar Mali would be pretty awesome...
 
Isn't Hispaniola far too far West for the first landing ? Their route is more or less that of Cabral, which would take them to Brazil, or if they are further north, in the latitude of the Caribbean, they should make landfall in either the Lesser Antilles or, as Columbus did, the Bahamas.

Interesting to note that there was a rumour in Spanish America that the Templars indeed reached Brazil many years before Columbus. This tradition is supported by the flag raised on Columbus caravels: a Templar cross instead of a normal cross, so many argue that he knew where America was all along.
 
I like this idea. Just have them setup in the Caribbean and marry locally and then in several decades have them begin to expand out of the Caribbean. I think with patience this could be successful for the Templars but charging in will get them killed.

Don't listen to the doubters, I say study up do your research and then restart it.

Who says the Templars have to launch a Crusade in the butchering all non-christians in their path usage of the word. Made once they see the size of the lands they landed in, the fact that it isn't Mali, the sheer amount of population (probably several times larger than Europe) they will be convinced that they were sent to the Americas to preach the gospel and not to conquer the in the name of the Gospel.
 
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