The Mayans as an early modern power?

Hello all,

Allow me to introduce myself. I am SunWukong, although you might have guessed it, that is not my real name. I am the acting secretary of Beelim Solutions; and an honourary member of the Modderf*ckers, two groups dedicated to working on projects based off the game engines for Rise of Nations: Thrones and Patriots, and Zero-K.

My major problem currently now is that I am building a RTS mod, covering the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries (as well as the First World War, somewhat like Victoria II extended). My biggest problem are the Mesoamerican civs, which I feel, are often neglected by many RTS games and people because they are frequently dismissed as being technologically inferior (which isn't always true).

So far, we have 5 factions covered by my game which I feel are important:

Spanish Empire
Nueva Espana (covers the Aztecs, is still busy assimilating them)
Portuguese Brazil
The Mayans
Captaincy-General of Peru (which is also busy assimilating the Inca)

The startoff date is roughly around 1600 AD.

Over time, I want the Inca and Aztec to slowly evolve from native empires to Spanish colonial possessions (with their own units shared with Spain) and into modern Mexico and Peru. That one I have solved, but I haven't done the same with the Maya, which I think are fascinating enough.

My first problem with the Maya was that after 1821, they didn't have much influence. I decided to have them evolve into this semi-historical entity called (Gran) Colombia which had llaneros cavalry, based off Simon Bolivar's army, but I realised that the area covered by Gran Colombia does not include Mayan territory. To make matters worse, most territory, I have read, belonging to the Maya was actually expropriated to Mexico by 1900, although there arose once a state called the "Maya Free State" which even enjoyed British protection for a while.

Does anyone know how to fix this dilemma? I would like to make the Maya as "normal" as possible (whatever that means) but it's just too difficult. So far we've got the following bonuses and units given to them, which I think are not really that accurate:

  • First senate is free
  • Gain food from lumber posts
  • Units are hidden and heal in your territory when not attacking or under attack
  • Conscript units have additional hitpoints
  • Scouts spawn from your barracks, and can move through forests
So these people are still masters of the jungle despite what happens, even if they no longer build on a frequent and environmentally damaging basis.
Here's the unit roster:
  • Javelineers => Heavy javelineers
  • Spearmen => Heavy spearmen => Libertador Chosen Men
  • Llaneros [3] => Llaneros cavalry [4] Medium cavalry, representing a balance between the cheapness of hussars and the hitting strength of heavy cavalry
  • First Nations archers => Matchlock cacique [2]
  • Batab warbands [1-2] => Guerillas [3-5] faster, stronger and stealthy units, better than normal militia.
  • Missionary [3] an agent unit recruitable from the Presidium
  • Possibly: armed caravans and merchants and supply
The ancient Maya rely heavily on militia to save the day, unlike the more expansionist Aztec and Inca who had their own special regiments of units. After that, however, it's hard to say what happens (or what ought to happen next). I tried adding some Bolivarian-styled units, but it just didn't work out well.

Can anyone give me some ideas, perhaps for say line units, artillery and/or cavalry? please don't try to suggest an ancient Mesoamerican unit like a "Jaguar Knight" that rides horses!
 
Shouldn't the Mayans's moern equivalent (in the context you are using) be more like the United Provinces of Central America? Though maybe not, since most of teh Mayan heartland is inside Mexico (IIRC).

There was the Republic of Yucatan too.
 
Republic of Yucatan as a Maya state is like calling the CSA a state for black people. Sure they formed a significant chunk of the population, but the Maya were typically treated as serfs at best. If anything, the key difference between the Yucatan and the CSA is that the Confederates were smart enough not to start handing guns to their slaves to win their independence and expect them to hand the guns back without a fuss. The Maya Free State would be a much better choice. Not only was it actually run by the Maya, but they lasted much, much longer than the Republic of Yucatan. Yucatan was around for what, 7 years? The Maya Free State rebelled in 1848 and surrendered in 1901, with the last holdouts of resistance lasting into the 1930's. That, and they were also responsible for the destruction of the Republic of Yucatan.
 
I wonder if the Mayas could actually have taken over the Yucatan Republic and genocided the White/Mixed population. Sort of what happened in Haiti.
 
I wonder if the Mayas could actually have taken over the Yucatan Republic and genocided the White/Mixed population. Sort of what happened in Haiti.
They were on the verge of that in OTL, closer than you think. Merida was just about to be taken when a lot of the Maya rebels were leaving to tend to their harvests and the rest could not complete the conquest. The mestizos were often left alone, especially if they made it clear they sided with the Maya and one prominent member of the rebellion was mestizo, but the whites not in Merida or the port at that time were being killed or enslaved when they got caught by the advancing Maya armies. It was after all a war motivated mostly by revenge.
 
I'm 'glad' to read that they could co-opt the Mestizos. It makes the takeover more plausible. I'm also curious to know what they though about Black people, although I'm aware that the Black population in the Yucatan was probably negligible (I also know there is a world of difference between the two cases but the neo-Inca rebellion of the 18th century in Peru did make an effort to get the Blacks on their side).

So, as for the POD... would a later, or longer Mexican-American War that makes Mexico unable to intervene in 1848 suffice to ensure a Mayan victory?
 
I'm 'glad' to read that they could co-opt the Mestizos. It makes the takeover more plausible. I'm also curious to know what they though about Black people, although I'm aware that the Black population in the Yucatan was probably negligible (I also know there is a world of difference between the two cases but the neo-Inca rebellion of the 18th century in Peru did make an effort to get the Blacks on their side).

So, as for the POD... would a later, or longer Mexican-American War that makes Mexico unable to intervene in 1848 suffice to ensure a Mayan victory?

You could also have the Criolos expelled and killed just like what some revolutionaries did in the Philippines in OTL during or around the time of the Fil-Am war and later in World War II.
 
So, as for the POD... would a later, or longer Mexican-American War that makes Mexico unable to intervene in 1848 suffice to ensure a Mayan victory?
Just going far enough to knock over Merida and secure the Yucatan could be good enough. Britain's going to give them some more support probably, or at least the same amount of support as IOTL, whereas the Mexicans don't have any sort of foothold at all anymore.
 
Reality check?

Though such a mod could be fun to play, I'm very much in doubt as to the feasability of the history behind it. Of course if you're not interested in realism, then go for it :D But I'm still gonna chip in there, because for me, plausibility is semi-important in games.

I don't see the "Aztecs rising to power as a Spanish possession" happening at all. For sure, the area formerly known as the Aztec Empire (or whatever the Aztecs called their empire) will become part of Spain, but I don't see the whole combination between Aztec and Spanish-thing happening. You'd need a completely different Spain, in order to allow the natives the kind of participation that this would require. The best bet for that is to have the church's criticisms of the mistreatment of the natives have more weight somehow, but still a long shot.
 
Though such a mod could be fun to play, I'm very much in doubt as to the feasability of the history behind it. Of course if you're not interested in realism, then go for it :D But I'm still gonna chip in there, because for me, plausibility is semi-important in games.

I don't see the "Aztecs rising to power as a Spanish possession" happening at all. For sure, the area formerly known as the Aztec Empire (or whatever the Aztecs called their empire) will become part of Spain, but I don't see the whole combination between Aztec and Spanish-thing happening. You'd need a completely different Spain, in order to allow the natives the kind of participation that this would require. The best bet for that is to have the church's criticisms of the mistreatment of the natives have more weight somehow, but still a long shot.

Portugal, vassalizing the Aztecs would be a better fate for the Aztecs.
 
As for the OP itself, I think the best type of units a modern Mayan state would have is the same as that of the Mexicans during their revolutionary war. If they are to be masters of the jungle, their units types must emphasize quality, stealth and mobility while in their territory. I have some ideas..

Short to medium ranged pistol armed light cavalry, perfect for scouting and harassing enemy slow-movers.

Medium ranged matchlock line infantry, fast and deadly but lacks in endurance.

Guerrillas armed with matchlocks, stealthed while in jungles/forests, get short atk. speed boost when suddenly out of stealth to attack/move.
 
As for the OP itself, I think the best type of units a modern Mayan state would have is the same as that of the Mexicans during their revolutionary war. If they are to be masters of the jungle, their units types must emphasize quality, stealth and mobility while in their territory. I have some ideas..

Short to medium ranged pistol armed light cavalry, perfect for scouting and harassing enemy slow-movers.

Medium ranged matchlock line infantry, fast and deadly but lacks in endurance.

Guerrillas armed with matchlocks, stealthed while in jungles/forests, get short atk. speed boost when suddenly out of stealth to attack/move.
Or you could give them the sort of units they actually used.

For starters, given the occassional ammunition shortages, a lot of Maya rebels used a homemade sort of projectile called the "palanqueta". It's basically an almost inch-long nail hammered to the size of the barrel that when fired makes a very frightening sound and causes gruesome exit wounds. An extremely common weapon among the rebels was the machete, which was put to use quite often. Scouts on both sides also used signal bombs, which are pretty self explanatory. Upon seeing enemy forces they'd drop a bomb and the sound from the explosion could be heard for miles. And then there's the Maya rebels from the more isolated interior who were called "huits" or "huitob" after the loincloths some still wore, who were excellent guerrilla fighters. There are no references to cavalry though that I'm aware of and I highly doubt matchlocks were used, this is mid-1800's North America we're talking about.
 

NothingNow

Banned
There are no references to cavalry though that I'm aware of.
Yeah, the Mayans as a rule were too poor for that sort of thing, and the Yucatan is horrible country for Horses anyway. Instead, you'd march places. And it's pretty easy to exceed Cavalry Speeds on a strategic level with infantry, and in Tropical conditions not that hard Tactically either. A horse will die of exhaustion long before a man would anyway.

So they'd be faster on their home turf and a lot less susceptible to things like disease as well (meanwhile Yellow fever and Malaria will decimate an unseasoned unit within a week, and leave most of the survivors unfit for combat.

I highly doubt matchlocks were used, this is mid-1800's North America we're talking about.
Pretty much everyone in the region had at least a cheap flintlock musket/shotgun
 
Yeah, the Mayans as a rule were too poor for that sort of thing, and the Yucatan is horrible country for Horses anyway. Instead, you'd march places. And it's pretty easy to exceed Cavalry Speeds on a strategic level with infantry, and in Tropical conditions not that hard Tactically either. A horse will die of exhaustion long before a man would anyway.
Even the Yucatecos hardly used cavalry. Horsemen seemed to be typically used as scouts, dispatch riders, and escorts. Officers are occasionally depicted on horseback, but this must've often got them killed if they did so. There were cavalry soldiers like dragoons and the ocassional cavalry charge, but these more often than not ended in disaster. Like an ambush at where a captain led an advance of 29 horsemen right past a group of Maya who apparently decided it would be more prudent to simply hide themselves in the jungle along the road. All 29 horsemen were quickly captured.
 
Damn but I thought this thread had died a long time ago, but I guess I was wrong - everyone was just off on summer holiday. So, here goes:

Shouldn't the Mayans's moern equivalent (in the context you are using) be more like the United Provinces of Central America?

Republic of Yucatan as a Maya state is like calling the CSA a state for black people. Sure they formed a significant chunk of the population, but the Maya were typically treated as serfs at best.

Which was exactly why I started this thread because I wasn't sure what units to include. The units we gave to the Maya would be dependent heavily on what nation they'd become.

The Maya Free State would be a much better choice. Not only was it actually run by the Maya, but they lasted much, much longer than the Republic of Yucatan.

For me, one of the biggest problems was the fact that the modern Maya were poor, so giving them big guns and modern cuirassiers like the Aztecs or the Inca (who may have had better reason to receive them) would be out of the question. I was worried about how they'd turn out if we used the Mayan Free State, but anyway....

I don't see the "Aztecs rising to power as a Spanish possession" happening at all. For sure, the area formerly known as the Aztec Empire (or whatever the Aztecs called their empire) will become part of Spain, but I don't see the whole combination between Aztec and Spanish-thing happening.

The Aztecs share a few units or two with Spain, but generally they are vastly inferior. It's only when you reach the Industrialisation Era that it begins to take off. I thought of including the same boring mix of Atl-atls and Jaguar Warriors, but if this mod took place AFTER the Cortesian conquests then I would have to rethink it all over. Maybe, it'd be better to get some Mexicanos to work this one out.


As for the OP itself, I think the best type of units a modern Mayan state would have is the same as that of the Mexicans during their revolutionary war. If they are to be masters of the jungle, their units types must emphasize quality, stealth and mobility while in their territory. I have some ideas..

Short to medium ranged pistol armed light cavalry, perfect for scouting and harassing enemy slow-movers.

Medium ranged matchlock line infantry, fast and deadly but lacks in endurance.

Guerrillas armed with matchlocks, stealthed while in jungles/forests, get short atk. speed boost when suddenly out of stealth to attack/move.

Okay, matchlocks had been planned. The Mesoamericans weren't the only factions, as I had envisioned adding several other factions that used semi-professional matchlock warriors, such as Siam, Myanmar and Atjeh.

American cavalry is quite interesting, because apart from the Aztecs, everyone else uses only Medium Cavalry, especially for the USA. I had planned this for the start and thought that a medium cavalry unit would be a perfect way to avoid the problems of adding hussars or cuirassiers to factions which historically NEVER had them in the first place.

...a lot of Maya rebels used a homemade sort of projectile called the "palanqueta". It's basically an almost inch-long nail hammered to the size of the barrel that when fired makes a very frightening sound and causes gruesome exit wounds.

I must do research on this, although at present I am embroiled with another project called Rise of Kings which has proven to have had complications. Nevertheless I will indeed look this up later on.

... there's the Maya rebels from the more isolated interior who were called "huits" or "huitob" after the loincloths some still wore, who were excellent guerrilla fighters.

I did read a bit on ancient Mayan warfare, so for the early game you will have these people using the traditional Mayan militia units. Later on, you will also get well, what passes for line infantry and cavalry for them. These units are rather weak, however, so you will have to use guerilla tactics in order to slow your opponent down. I'm still engaged in my Mediaeval warfare mod which is making extremely creaky progress, but I will go and update my unit rosters once I have the time.
 
How about Tayasal+British Honduras?

That is - Tayasal manages to defend themselves in 1697 and start trade with British in Belize. Buys guns, builds bastioned fortresses, a fortified seaport at Belize rivermouth - goes to offensive each time England is in war with Spain?
 
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