Hopefully Cleomenes can reform Saprta in time for it to remain relevant on the world stage....

Also with Pyrrhus alive and a powerful Epirus, I can see TTL's Punic Wars going better for Carthage, if Epirus jumps in for revenge and Masslia sends its powerful navy to help them. With naval superiority and a powerful veteran army that Carthage didn't have IOTL in addition to Hamilclar's brilliance I can easily see Carthage winning this round, and Hannibal growing up just in time to see a resurgent Rome smacked down again. Huge butterflies.....

But, I'm not sure for the future of Ptolemaic Egypt-it's a rich kingdom sure, but it's only a kingdom, with limited resources. Seleucus has a whole empire stretching to India under his control with all the resources that comes along with it, and later on Egypt did suffer terrible losses and was losing, until Parthians and Romans stopped the trend. Can Epirus and Masslia do the same? Any Diadochi surviving would be quite cool in a TL.....

Would the Masslians push north into Gaul and maybe even Germania or Britainia or go south into Iberia? Many possibilities for expansion there....
 
Hopefully Cleomenes can reform Saprta in time for it to remain relevant on the world stage....

Also with Pyrrhus alive and a powerful Epirus, I can see TTL's Punic Wars going better for Carthage, if Epirus jumps in for revenge and Masslia sends its powerful navy to help them. With naval superiority and a powerful veteran army that Carthage didn't have IOTL in addition to Hamilclar's brilliance I can easily see Carthage winning this round, and Hannibal growing up just in time to see a resurgent Rome smacked down again. Huge butterflies.....

But, I'm not sure for the future of Ptolemaic Egypt-it's a rich kingdom sure, but it's only a kingdom, with limited resources. Seleucus has a whole empire stretching to India under his control with all the resources that comes along with it, and later on Egypt did suffer terrible losses and was losing, until Parthians and Romans stopped the trend. Can Epirus and Masslia do the same? Any Diadochi surviving would be quite cool in a TL.....

Would the Masslians push north into Gaul and maybe even Germania or Britainia or go south into Iberia? Many possibilities for expansion there....


Yes lots of possible scenarios. Lets see what happens. Any suggestions?

About Ptolemaic Egypt after the first Syrian war was at her prime time. When Ptolemy II died started the downfall.
 
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Yes lots of possible scenarios. Lets see what happens. Any suggestions?

About Ptolemaic Egypt after the first Syrian war was at her prime time. When Ptolemy II died started the downfall.

Sparta surviving and prospering.
Carthage wins Punic Wars.
Epirus blobs.
Diadochi reunites Alexander's empire in one way or another.
Greek Gaul.
Punic Iberia.
Rome focused to the North instead of South.

Just some stuff I though of....

True, but in the long run Seleucus will ground down Egypt...
 
Sparta surviving and prospering.
Carthage wins Punic Wars.
Epirus blobs.
Diadochi reunites Alexander's empire in one way or another.
Greek Gaul.
Punic Iberia.
Rome focused to the North instead of South.

Just some stuff I though of....

True, but in the long run Seleucus will ground down Egypt...


NIce ideas. I'll keep them in mind :)
 
Carthage cannot win the Punic war.
Massalia is a nation focused on trade, sea trade.
Carthage is it's main rival. Rome is a land based power with a high consumer populace, an ideal partner for Massalia.
Massalia at the end of the day will want the Carthaginian market and removing them as the middle man.

Ptolemaic cannot stand against the Seleucid. They won't have a better luck with Greek immigrants, esp. with Massalia being a much better destination. Their policies on native Egyptians hasn't changed, though Epirus might be nice counterweight to aid them. Massalians won't be dying for them any time soon.

Massalian expansion is being carried out the best way. They are most likely the most stable polity in the world next to Han China and just like the later will end up assimilating their surrounding Gaul soon enough.
 
Carthage cannot win the Punic war.
Massalia is a nation focused on trade, sea trade.
Carthage is it's main rival. Rome is a land based power with a high consumer populace, an ideal partner for Massalia.
Massalia at the end of the day will want the Carthaginian market and removing them as the middle man.

Ptolemaic cannot stand against the Seleucid. They won't have a better luck with Greek immigrants, esp. with Massalia being a much better destination. Their policies on native Egyptians hasn't changed, though Epirus might be nice counterweight to aid them. Massalians won't be dying for them any time soon.

Massalian expansion is being carried out the best way. They are most likely the most stable polity in the world next to Han China and just like the later will end up assimilating their surrounding Gaul soon enough.
In the event of a Punic War,it's best to have the Romans and the Carthaginians fight a long drawn out war to exhaust one another before attacking the victor.I can't see the Massaliots drawn into a land war with their Seleucids either.I think that the biggest advantage of the alliance with the Massaliots was that the Egyptians can draw down on the size of their navy and emphasize much more of the budget on ground forces much like the ERE did in regards with the Italian city states during the Middle Ages.
 

Artaxerxes

Banned
Both Carthage and Rome wore themselves to almost ruin in the punic wars otl. Nasty conflict.

Here I can see massila providing rome with much needed naval experience at the start of war considering they seem fairly close. Otherwise I can see rome choosing to take an attitude of "not with us, you are against us" and attempting to attack massila.
Which means rome grinds into a bloody land based war while Carthage rules the waves.
 
Both Carthage and Rome wore themselves to almost ruin in the punic wars otl. Nasty conflict.

Yes the first Punic war almost ruin both Carthage and Rome.

Here I can see massila providing rome with much needed naval experience at the start of war considering they seem fairly close. Otherwise I can see rome choosing to take an attitude of "not with us, you are against us" and attempting to attack massila.
Which means rome grinds into a bloody land based war while Carthage rules the waves.

With Pyrrhus alive and stronger than ever, a new war against Rome it also possible.
 
Both Carthage and Rome wore themselves to almost ruin in the punic wars otl. Nasty conflict.

Here I can see massila providing rome with much needed naval experience at the start of war considering they seem fairly close. Otherwise I can see rome choosing to take an attitude of "not with us, you are against us" and attempting to attack massila.
Which means rome grinds into a bloody land based war while Carthage rules the waves.
They can most certainly try,but to be honest,that would be stupid.Their main point of a war with Carthage would be to secure Sicily or one of the other Mediterranean islands.They really don't have the necessary forces to fight both Carthage and the Massaliots.On top of that,the Massaliots are allied with Pyrrhus and Egypt.Unless the Romans want to commit national suicide,they would not attack the Massaliots.Heck,the Massaliots and the Epirots would most likely threaten the Romans to extract maximum benefits for their neutrality.The Carthaginians are no slouches,they'd be having an awful time fighting the Carthaginians alone.

I'd also think that the relationship between the Romans and the Massaliots at this point in time is at an all time low,given how they have conquered a lot of Greek cities and that the Greek refugees from Magna Graecia now constitute a significant portion of Massalia's population.
 
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Artaxerxes

Banned
They can most certainly try,but to be honest,that would be stupid.Their main point of a war with Carthage would be to secure Sicily or one of the other Mediterranean islands.They really don't have the necessary forces to fight both Carthage and the Massaliots.On top of that,the Massaliots are allied with Pyrrhus and Egypt.Unless the Romans want to commit national suicide,they would not attack the Massaliots.Heck,the Massaliots and the Epirots would most likely threaten the Romans to extract maximum benefits for their neutrality.The Carthaginians are no slouches,they'd be having an awful time fighting the Carthaginians alone.

I'd also think that the relationship between the Romans and the Massaliots at this point in time is at an all time low,given how they have conquered a lot of Greek cities and that the Greek refugees from Magna Graecia now constitute a significant portion of Massalia's population.

War doesn't always make sense, especially for an arrogant power like Rome. Plenty of senators would be very unhappy and even scared should massila trade with both sides or make treaties with Carthage alongside Rome. Scared angry people make bad decisions.
 
I'd also think that the relationship between the Romans and the Massaliots at this point in time is at an all time low,given how they have conquered a lot of Greek cities and that the Greek refugees from Magna Graecia now constitute a significant portion of Massalia's population.

I was ready to write the same!
 
War doesn't always make sense, especially for an arrogant power like Rome. Plenty of senators would be very unhappy and even scared should massila trade with both sides or make treaties with Carthage alongside Rome. Scared angry people make bad decisions.
Not yet,this isn't the Rome after the Punic Wars.

Also,they know the Massaliots are allied with Pyrrhus of all people and Egypt.These big names should be enough to scare the Romans into backing off.

Due to the poor relations with the Massaliots,trying to threaten the Massaliots into joining a war with the Romans will most likely backfire.This is something as stupid as the Zimmermann Telegram.
 
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Massalia: With the expansion in trade in Atlantic tensions with Carthage is more than sure to happen. Besides, with Massalia stronger than ever, its quite possible for them to try to take the control of west Med trade from the hands of Carthage.

Rome: They just secured the Italian peninsula.Most probably will want to expand in Sicily as in OTL.

Epirus: They just secured the Greek mainland and Macedonia. Most probably Pyrrhus will want to expand more. Rome or Asia minor/Seleucids are the most obvious targets.

Egypt: They just secured Syria from Seleucids and are at the moment at their prime.

Carthage: They dominate the trade in west Med and they are at their prime.

Seleucids: They just lost the war against Egypt. They try to rebuilt.
 
Are there any attempts by the Massalians to expand into Cisalpine Gaul?It's a logical step to try and secure Massalia itself in the East.You really don't want the capital itself to be near the border even if there's the Alps separating Cisalpine Gaul from the capital.
 
Are there any attempts by the Massalians to expand into Cisalpine Gaul?It's a logical step to try and secure Massalia itself in the East.You really don't want the capital itself to be near the border even if there's the Alps separating Cisalpine Gaul from the capital.
Not yet. But you are right, sooner or later they will want to expand there.
 
270 BC.
270 BC

The Triandria alliance’s army* easily defeated Magas small army and reestablish Cyrenaica under Ptolemy’s II control. From there Orestes and Pyrrhus went to Alexandria were Ptolemy II, who just came back from Syria, organised a huge and luxurious celebration for the establishment and the victories of the Triandria alliance. Orestes and fellow Massaliots nobles and stateman’s, that came for the celebrations, were astonish with the wealth and luxury of Ptolemaic Egypt. During the stay in Alexandria at a private dinner, Pyrrhus seeking revenge, suggested to Orestes and Ptolemy to organise and expedition against Rome and liberate the Greeks of Magna Graecia. Ptolemy who just went out of a major war against Seleucid empire, denied the proposal and suggested Pyrrhus to build up and stabilise his new territories. Orestes agreed with Ptolemy and reminded to Pyrrhus that Carthage helped Rome in the past war and will probably do the same again. Finally he also agreed with Ptolemy, to build up and maybe if the opportunity rise, to make an expedition in the future.

* Epirus, Massaliot League , Spartans, with the cover of Massaliot League and Rhodes League Fleet.


  • Hermarchus an Epicurean philosopher invited by Dynatoi company to teach in Massalia as the new head of their Academy.

By place

Roman Republic

Carthage
  • Carthage, already in control of Sardinia, southern Spain and Numidia, is ruled by an oligarchy of merchants under two Suffetes or chief magistrates. While Carthage's military commanders are strong, the state relies on mercenaries (including Spanish ones) for its soldiers.
 
At the start of the thread, Massalia and Rome were allies. with the League sending aid to Roman conflicts in Italy. Soon after I noticed that the League was increasingly abstaining from what may not have technically been obligations to aid Rome, but which I bet many Romans felt they should have helped with. Now, we see the League helping cities of Magna Graecia evacuate their peoples and resettle them in their territory, leaving empty shells for the Romans to rule over. Insofar as the Romans are thus saved casualties and offered tracts of land they can re-colonize with their own chosen subjects, the League might represent this as a favor, but the premise of friendship between Massalia and Rome is getting thinner and thinner.

We have yet, however, to witness the League turning decisively and directly against the Romans; so far it has been a matter of drifting away and evasion of conflict.

It is not clear to me whether the POD in the near future the author has spoken of has come or gone or not, but it does seem clear that long ago, probably before this thread got past the first page, the TL has already diverged from OTL. OTL I don't believe the League ever reorganized itself on such strongly democratic lines, much less taken the recent reform of a centralized federal republic. And OTL, I believe the Massaliotes kept in diplomatic lockstep with the Romans, never doing anything to offend the Republic and always at the ready to aid them. Their reward for this, in the longer run, was to have Rome systemically strip the city itself of its former dependencies and make these directly Roman. The city continued to prosper and was not directly conquered--until late in the Republic's civil-war-torn years, when they supported the Republic against Julius Caesar who was in opposition to the established set of rulers at the moment.

Here for good or ill, the League has taken a more active role, and works methodically toward its own interest. Will this necessarily mean conflict with Rome? Certainly as things stand, Rome's avenue toward glory in the northwest is blocked by the League. The League also stands between Italy and Iberia, though a sea connection would not be impossible--but not playing to Roman strength, which is that of armies on land, not sea power. One can imagine a scenario where a Roman/Massaliot alliance attacks Carthaginian Iberia, but in the ATL development of the League we have already seen, the Greek federation will not be content to simply let the Romans take the territory they might thus free. If it is the other way round, the League facing a devastating invasion from Carthage's Iberian holdings and calling on the Romans to assist their defense (obviously in Rome's interest to do so, with the ML interposed as a buffer state) perhaps then the Massaliot government might sign off on Roman colonies in Iberia as the price of Roman aid.

The League clearly has even more ambitions than the domination and absorption of Gaul, all of which would bring her into conflict with Roman ambitions if we assume the Romans are not diverted from their OTL course. I'm pretty sure that they haven't moved on eastern Iberia because Carthage does hold it strongly--for the moment. It is this grip on the eastern half of the peninsula that allows Carthage to monopolize the Atlantic trade--or did until the recent annexation of a salient into Aquitani and the new port on the Bay of Biscay (or whatever the Greco-Classical name they would give it, beyond Ocean-Atlantic, would be). The ambition to break Carthaginian power is something the League is coming to share with the Romans, and may be the basis of their historic and OTL eternal alliance holding somewhat longer. But I feel that already serious fault lines are forming. League leadership may postpone any direct confrontation with Rome for quite a while yet, but the price of their doing so is allowing the Romans to consolidate control over increasing area. With the conquest of the southernmost reaches of Italy, the Romans have accomplished something already worth more than just so many thousands of square kilometers added to their domain; they have eliminated a potential front on which they can be attacked. Not entirely obviously; landings by invasion fleets are a thing in this era, and Carthage still controls Sicily, which is very near. If the Romans get the upper hand in Sicily as well, then they have in effect got control over all Italy, and can concentrate more defensive or offensive force in the North. With the Alps being largely a barrier, this means they can focus either northeast, or northwest--to move into the Balkan peninsula toward Greece, or to move into Gaul. OTL when the Romans moved northwest, Massaliot power was so diffuse that either that city did not perceive the Roman advance as a threat at all, or if they did, they were too weak to oppose it and made the best of it by obsequious friendship with the rising superpower. Here it is already too late for that; Roman ambitions against Gaul mean ambitions against Massalia, whereas the Massaliotes seem to have expanded and developed their armies enough to give the Roman Legions a serious challenge. At the same time, by taking more direct and deeper control of the neighboring Gaulish peoples, they deprive the Romans of the pretexts and perhaps motivations they had to move in that direction at all.

Therefore the Romans may not even wish to proceed northwest, and let the border of Cisalpine Gaul rest peacefully. That would tend then divert their ambitions eastward, but the Balkans are tough sledding; OTL the Empire never made much of the interior, with the relevance of Illyria being mainly its strip of coastland, aka "Dalmatia." Dalmatia in turn leads to Epiros, which is Pyrrhus's home and thus defended by himself and all the resources of Macedon and northern Greece he currently holds. And at this moment, he is an ally of Massalia!

This alliance may break up when Pyrrhus dies. But even without the super-general of the age blocking the route, the Adriatic shore is not all that attractive. It would perhaps be conceivable the Romans get diverted northeast indeed, through OTL Serbia to the passes leading into the great valley of Pannonia, but OTL the Romans never did much with this route and that resource despite having the whole Mediterranean-spanning empire to draw on, so presumably that is no royal road to wealth and power either in this age.

If the Romans consider themselves boxed in on land, they might still take to the sea and range around trying to round out their holdings. I have suggested they share the ambition the Massaloits have to eliminate Carthage as a rival, one that has already moved to box in the rising powers, but the difference is that the Massaloites have developed an alternative path to the Med. The Romans have nothing in that respect unless they can dislodge Carthage from Iberia. A naval conflict might be nextt, one where unlike OTL an alt-Hannibal does not have the option of invading Roman land overland at all...

...unless Massalia allies with Carthage!

If we figure Massalia instinctively dreads the day they must face the Romans at last and postpones it as long as possible, they have to leave Rome free to try and secure Sicily for itself, while not amassing threatening force on the boundaries of Cisalpine Gaul. If they do that, Rome might also be able to seize Corsica and Sardinia, and then the eastern end including Massalia itself is threatened pretty direly.

It is hard to see any of the three powers of Massalia, Rome or Carthage forming a lasting alliance. Actually a Massalian/Roman alliance would have some merit--OTL this was done and resulted in the gradual annexation of the former to the latter. The more aggressive League here seems unlikely to roll over to that degree, but visionary statesmen might foresee an indefinite partition of interests, with Rome focused eastward to secure Hellas and the rich lands of the eastern Med while Massalia bypasses, undercuts, and ultimately absorbs Carthaginian western holdings.

But the author has already leapfrogged past this, with the Massaliotes seeking formal alliance with Pyrrhus and Ptolemy. Indeed, why should such Hellenes as the Massaliotes consign the vast holdings of the Hellenistic heirs to Alexander to a bunch of Latin barbarians?

OTL the path Rome took to invincible power over the east was to first secure a rustic western hinterland, absorbing both the Massaliote and Carthaginian spheres completely, before being drawn into the squabbles of the Hellenes to the east. If Rome does not do this but is diverted eastward directly, it seems doubtful they'd have the power to accomplish what they did OTL, even given extra centuries in which to try.

An alliance between Carthage and Massalia would be unstable and opportunistic, necessarily focused on knocking Rome out as a mutual threat. Once this is accomplished, if it can be, the two are basically contending to control the same territory and must come to blows; meanwhile neither can be focused on securing the eastern end of the trade pipeline that was the ultimate prize Rome won OTL. The author seems to have leapt ahead to Massaliote victory in awarding that League the alliance with Pyrrhus and Ptolemy--again of the three western powers, only one is ruled by Hellenes. But for Massalia to trade with the Atlantic goods she has gotten her hands on to the rich markets of the east, her ships must run a gauntlet contested between Rome and Carthage!

Might a Roman-Punic alliance to crush Massalia be in the cards then? If Rome absorbs the nearby city-state as a conquered province, would the Carthaginians see Rome as any less of a rival than Massalia had been? Perhaps, if the Romans will partition the Iberian holdings, Tolosa, and Aquitani to Carthage, and content herself with eastern Massaliote lands and the route up Saone-Rhone which reaches to inland Europe the Carthaginians had no relations with anyway, the Romans may then be rich enough to write off southwestern Gaul, Iberia, all of North Africa west of Libya, and focus as OTL on the endgame in the eastern Med.

But again, while suitably enlightened and foresightful leaders in Carthage and Rome might conceivably share such a vision, the more obvious course to take is for one to eliminate the other and take over its holdings and then turn eastward.

The triple standoff is interesting, I won't dare predict how the author intends to resolve!

What is quite clear is, whatever the "POD" was, it is well in the past by now.
 
Great analysis Shevek23! I loved it!

What is quite clear is, whatever the "POD" was, it is well in the past by now.

This is an ATL from day one. I tried to be as close to OTL until the death of Pyrrhus in 272 BC . The “major” POD starts with Pyrrhus staying alive. So basically the timeline is pretty much the same as in OTL (beside Massalia and Gauls)until 272 BC. Even Taranto's destruction by the Romans happened in the OTL.

The triple standoff is interesting, I won't dare predict how the author intends to resolve!

That was my plan from the start! This triple standoff!:) Its super interesting!

Looking forward for more suggestions for were to go from here with the current status quo. I have an idea in mind, but i always like to hear other opinions.


But the author has already leapfrogged past this, with the Massaliotes seeking formal alliance with Pyrrhus and Ptolemy. Indeed, why should such Hellenes as the Massaliotes consign the vast holdings of the Hellenistic heirs to Alexander to a bunch of Latin barbarians?

Exactly!
 
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