I'm curious,what exactly is the Carthaginian and Roman population including their vassal states right now?
The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline
- Thread starter Sersor
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Hmm, I still stand my the strain on infrastructure rather than resources, but the idea of a Greek population boom over the next few generations is an interesting one. Speaking of infrastructure, are we going to see any great road-building in the near future? With the increased population in S.France, and the increasing importance of Atlantic trade, the League will need some fearsome roads.
I'm unaware, but how effectively did people at this point in time search for resources? Or was it more of a "Oh, a farmer broke his plow on a red rock, lets go mine some iron" or a "Lets see if those hills have anything worth digging up","Oh, this forest has some mint wood", "I... I should not have eaten those mushrooms, Sam, your face is ... like a rainbow".
Artaxerxes
Banned
More effectively than people think, same with road infrastructure as well. Europe wasn't as empty or as backwards as popular culture suggests.
I know it wasn't backwards (Hell, steam power was invented at this point after all), but I'm unaware about how it was done or how active it is. After all, the typical reason people say the Romans wouldn't try again to conquer Germania is that they didn't know if anything was there to justify the cost.
It could just be local landowners investigating their land, rather than orchestrated attempts to find resources and then open the land to people to stake claims.
Artaxerxes
Banned
You'd be looking at a rural economy, mixed forest management and many small farms in Gaul and Britain with a few tribal centres, with Germany very heavily wooded which was the main challenge dealing with the place, led to a lower population density.
Local elites would dominate the tribal centres, generally a warrior class. Most of the resources would be known about already and exploited depending on a basis of "is there a demand for this" you'd see trade go through a series of small hops rather than large ones though. Much of the trade would be based on requirements for prestige goods rather than resources like Iron, Gold, Lead. Those things are heavy so you'd have centres building them and goods radiating outwards from there.
So there'd be no real formal "we need Iron" expeditions I believe, but we can't know for sure because we don't have the sources to back that up. What you'd possibly see is a demand for craftsmen, and then if the craftsmen move in you get the locals looking for local resources to exploit. Landowners would keep an eye out for anything useful but they might not necessarily know what was useful.
What kind of infrastructure do you want?To my understanding,there wasn't much infrastructure when the Americas were settled either.
I'm talking about high-quality romanesque roads between Massila, Tolosa, and Naucratis - that would like be the most important road that isn't coastal. After that whichever roads are the most militarily important.
Artaxerxes
Banned
Roman roads were excellent but very over engineered, theres a school of thought that has them being laid down over existing roads as well, rather than springing up fully surveyed and ready to go.
Non-roman roads seem to have been a mix of dirt roads and tracks along with wood rather than stone in some areas. Major routes would be along ridgelines to ensure they could be used in damp conditions as well.
Quick google brings this up
http://erenow.com/ancient/the-secret-history-of-the-roman-roads-of-britain/1.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...scovery-cobbled-built-100-years-invasion.html
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So how is a lack of roads right now called a strain in infrastructure?I don't see how it's a big deal that couldn't be surmounted.
Especially since the Massaliot mostly use rivers to connect their trading posts. Surely at some point their will be needs for good roads, especially for linking Tolossa which is the heart of their riches
It wasn't just roads - they came to mind, I was also concerned with what appeared to be the very rapid arrival of 50,000 people, as in, upwards of 10% increase in population. Not saying there aren't resources to exploit once they settle, but I would have expected the arrival to affect the stockpiles of food, and other resources that are needed in short order, including increasing the price of food in the short term as crops for the extra 50,000 people were not being planted. AFAIK, Massalia isn't known as a grain exporter (yet), plus I hadn't seen much about the trade networks within the league, etc. Or whether or not they have spare river-craft or carts to handle the increased demand for shipping.
That was it, roads included - sudden influx seems sudden and would strain any society's resources. It isn't insurmountable, I would just expect an notable impact, especially as this isn't "I'm going to up sticks and create a new homestead in S.Gaul", but more "Oh shit, better get out of here, S.Gaul is safe right?". - Which doesn't mean they've brought along carts, building materials, all the food they'll need for the year. I'm happy with Sersors explanation that it took place over 1-3 years, and had some semblance of organisation, but I didn't understand it that way at first.
Rivers are good for bulk goods, but most people AFAIK at the time couldn't afford to travel on the ferry very often, but would instead walk the safest route they could find, normally a river-road, or other road. I highlighted the idea of a Tolossa road, because that road will need to be good, otherwise the higher levels of traffic will make that road a nightmare in bad weather, or in good weather.
There is some stats from the Roman census available. The population of Rome and the nearby Rome core area, in 276 BC was two hundred seventy thousands(man and woman citizens). So adding the vassals, with a fast research i estimate a total of five hundred to seven hundred thousands.
Yes fifty thousands people is an issue, but in time of crisis new things develop
A Greek population boom in Gaul is very interesting.
About the roads, i mention that new army/trade roads builded in 275 BC connecting Massalia with Tolosa and Mesachora. Ofc new roads and infrastructure will be needed soon.
i'll explain the economy of Massaliot League soon.
Yes Gauls were not backwards as popular culture suggests, but still far behind from the Greeks( 3rd century BC)
Artaxerxes
Banned
I would consider them politically lagging by about 100-200 years, and the only main sort of tech they would be behind with would be urban planning and literature. Again its a population density thing.
I agree to a point.They are behind from Greeks in more than urban planning and literature. We are talking for 3rd century BC
271 BC. From a crisis to a nation.
271 BC
From a crisis to a nation
With tens of thousands Greeks settling from Magna Graecia to Massaliot league lands, a shortage in food led to an increase of the prices.Tensions arise all over Massaliot League. The extra grain imports from Alexandria and Syracuse that started in 272 BC with new bigger trade ships helped to deal with the situation. But it was Aleksagoras that gave the final solution that changed Massaliot League. Aleksagoras a statesman,inventor and mathematician from Alexandria was invited to be the new first head of the museum a couple of years ago. This food crisis helped Aleksagoras to convince the assembly, in a more central state of governance in the way’s of the Ptolemaic model. The Ptolemaic Egypt was the most efficiently organised government in the Hellenistic world. It took its national form from Egypt and Persia, its municipal form from Greece, and passed them on to the Massaliot League. Massaliot League was divided into new nomes or provinces, each administered by appointees of the federal council of the Massaliot assembly. A bureaucracy of governmental overseers established. The centralisation of economic management in the hands of the Federal council/government, made easier public works of road construction, irrigation, and building.
The ancient techniques of farming was replaced by the new breakthrough invention of water wheel machines(the Noria). Large Noria water wheel machines sometimes forty feet in diameter builded all over Massaliot League. Nearly every new settler in Massaliot League was told by the officials what soil to till and what crops to grow. An agriculture revolution started.
The Industry was re developed also. New state factories builded. Artefacts,furnitures,pottery,textile manufacturing were produced in abundance, weapon and armour manufacturing(a blend of Gaul-Greek techniques) were Massalia's specialties. The screw chain, the wheel chain, the cam chain, the ratchet chain, the pulley chain, and the screw press were all in use.
The warehouses of Massalia invited world trade, its harbor was the envy of other cities. The fields, factories, and workshops of Massaliot League supplied a great surplus within the next years, which found markets as far east as Arabia, as far south as central Africa, as far north as Baltic sea and the British Isles.
The foundation of Triandria Alliance.
An army of eight thousands under Pyrrhus son Alcyoneus is send to east Macedonia to establish authority in ex Antigonus Macedonia lands. Aetolian league pledged once again their loyalty to Pyrrhus and guards placed in Corinth, Athens, Argos and several other towns. Sparta stayed independent under Cleonymous and given the command of south Pelloponnisos and Massalia builded a stronghold/trade hub in Lakonikos gulf. Pyrrhus now controls effectively Epirus, Mainland Greece and Macedonia. A formal alliance between Pyrrhus, Massaliot League and Sparta is establish. Pyrrhus and Orestes became good friends with great respect for each other. While the were discussing a suggestion from, the eager for revenge, Pyrrhus for a possible retaliation against Rome, diplomats from the winner of the first Syrian war, and old friend of Pyrrhus, Ptolemy II arrived. They congratulated Pyrrhus and Orestes for their win and proposed a formal alliance. They also asked Pyrrhus and Orestes to help Ptolemy II with Magas rebellion in Cyrenaica, since he is still in Syria re-establishing authority after the end of first Syrian war. For helping him out besides the mutual protection pact, Ptolemy promised twenty war elephants in Pyrrhus and exclusive trade rights of the trade routes of west med with Ptolemaic Egypt for Massalia. Pyrrus gladly accepts and Orestes with Carthage in mind agreed also.
The Triandria alliance between Ptolenaic Egypt, Pyrrhus kingdom and Massaliots league was established. Sparta and Rhodes league join as lesser partners short after.
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What's the size of the Massaliot navy?
What powers does the nomarchs of the provinces have?Would be a bad thing if they also have military commands on top civil administration and judicial powers.
What powers does the nomarchs of the provinces have?Would be a bad thing if they also have military commands on top civil administration and judicial powers.
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The Massaliot League fleet consist of twenty cataphract octeres ,sixty quinquereme, ten quadrireme and several smaller ships.
The nomarchs were kind of similar to the Roman censors, so minimal military authority.