True.
yep yep exactly like that. Hellenism spreads direct and not under Roman expansion and lots of new merged cultures will rise.
The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline
- Thread starter Sersor
- Start date
yep yep exactly like that. Hellenism spreads direct and not under Roman expansion and lots of new merged cultures will rise.
203 BC/ Massaliot league colonies update.
203 BC
Although Iberia was once again under Massaliot league control, several rebel groups were still active.To deal with the small guerrilla Iberian rebel groups, the League formed a new unit the Peripolia. Peripolia was a group of 50 stirrup/war saddle-charge/archer horsemen's that were part of a unit of 6 Peripolia, the Peripolos. The Peripolos were stationed in a fort/military colony. This 300 cavalry troops together with 200 garrison troops where responsible for patrolling large areas in Central Iberia. 3 peripolia where always in the move and the other 3 where stand by. The patrol lasted ten days and then was replace from the stand by unit. The League formed a total of 4 Peripolos in the area of Celtiberi tribes and 2 in the area of Carpetani. This new approach had really good results for the League and quickly stabilise the rebel areas in Iberia.
Kassiteia was the main trade city in the North for the League, a link between the mainlands, north Gaul, north Britannike and the Scandinavia colonies. The trade of tin was flourishing and a new trade good, the coal( thanks to hypocast invention)was starting to flourish also(especially in the north Gaul and scandinavia). The city was constantly receiving new colonist from the mainland and reached fifteen thousands pop in 203 BC. Under local governor Dimitrios( a dynatoi party member) the city founded 4 new trade hubs colonies in England and Ireland and build several water mills to boost the local agriculture production. Dimitrios also received 30 new venemeres from the league council to control the north seas and lead an expedition to deal with the Hibernian Pirates. He also expanded the control of the league north-east in the lands of the aggressive tribe of Durotriges. With the help of the Belgae allies he enslaved couple of thousands and burned several villages. 3 forts/military colonies were build in the area to stabilise the control of the area.
During the Roman/Punic war Kassiteia wasn't affected so much. Like all the rest of the Europe-Atlantic colonies of the League, kassitieia was far away from the theatres of the war. Never the less around 600 soldiers left from kassitieia to join the ranks of the league army during the war. Together with them, the league ally King Imanuentius together with his troops, sailed from there for the war.
Trinovantes Kingdom
The trinovantes king Imanuentius and his troops, during the war gained quite a reputation for their fight skills. After the war he was officially invited from the League council to take part in the celebrations of the victory. After a couple of months in Masallia, Imanuentius returned to his kingdom with a big amount of war spoils. Heavily influenced from the Hellenistic culture Imanuentius converted to dodekatheism and upon his arrival in his capital he ordered in a Greek sculptor to build a Nike sculpture dedicated to the victory and a temple dedicated to Athena. He also ordered to greek architects to build a quite big building to be used as an army arsenal and kind of an "academy" to educate the children's of the nobility. At the start he had trouble to find Greek scholars to settle in his capital but after some months he managed to invited 3-4 of Greek/Gaul scholars to come for some years by paying them really big salaries. Also around 100 Greek speaking Roman woman slaves where now working in the houses of the local nobility. This changes didn't fit well with some elders of the nobility but with they majority of the Warriors/nobles stand by his side Imanuentius easily eliminated the few opposed. Trinovantes capital, Braughing, was growing fast and had now more than 7000 population with several Greek type buildings poping up all over. Hypocaust and baths was a huge trend to the locals. Trade with Kassitieia and the League in general was flourishing. Trinovantes loved Massaliot wine/oil and their exports to the league was mostly coal and wool. Imanuentius also managed to aggressively expand his kingdom considerably, with several successful expeditions against neighborhood tribes of Catuvellauni and Iceni where his veteran and far better equipped/ tech advanced army was no match for them.
Scandia
Scandia/Sweden
The trade colony Ypervoreia in Sweden was in good relations with the locals and the major trade hub in Scandia The city had now more than 3000 pop( a mix of Greeks and hellinised Gauls). The city had among others, a Wooden wall, a gymnasium, a small theatre,a temple of Athena and a public bath. The hypocaust invention had spread up in the area the last couple of years and was used a lot by now. Ypervoreia even founded 3 trade colonies by herself also. Neavoreia(600 pop) to the north , Aktio(700 pop) to the south and Argio(900 pop) in Jutland peninsula . During the Punic/Latin war Ypervoreia wasn't really affected. Around 50 man left to join the ranks of the League army and the ratio of new colonist from the motherland dropped a little bit.
The Suiones kingdom
The local tribes in the north/east were friendly with the League and in fact they were really affected by the presence of the League. By trading and interacting with the League the Suiones tribe under their chief Habra, evolved from a loose tribe confederacy to a small kingdom. Their city/ capital Suona was basically the first city in all of Scandinavia that was build by locals. They started using stone for their buildings,agriculture technics,hot tubs and leagues drachma coins also. With the help of 30 league mercenaries they organised their army and bought new better weapons and armour from the Greek/Gauls. With their new army they expanded their rule to their neighbours tribes in the north. The kingdom of Suiones was now a strong local power with a capital city of 3000 pop and hundreds of villages under control. Last but not least a epicurean Druid settled in their area and started to spread the druidic Epicureanism .
Meanwhile in the north of Neavoreia the local tribe of Sitones were more aggressive against the League. They made couple of raids to Neavoreia but they where no match against the Greekgauls superior tactics and equipment. To deal with the situation Ypervoreia organised together with their allies, the Suiones kingdom, a couple of expeditions in the north, where they burned several villages and took more than 2000 slaves.
Abalus was now basically a island city with a population of 2700. The trade of Amber was flourishing and the city was a trade link between kassitieia,north Germany,north Gaul and the Scandinavian colonies.
Baltic Sea
Chalkis was making really good profit from the trade of Amber but had serious problems with the local Baltic tribes. The city although wealthy was not the first choice for the colonists and the population was growing slowly. Chalkis had in 203 BC around two thousands pop and had just finished her new stone wall (with 6 towers with siege engines)to deal with the countless raids from local tribes. Repeated calls to the Leagues council didn't do much cause besides 300 troops that arrived several years ago not any other official help arrived to deal with the problem. Nevertheless the city was in close contact with the colonies in present day Sweden/Denmark and that helped them a lot dealing with the local tribes.
Belgae region
Kallikrateia was trading mostly with the local Frisii tribe and served as a supply port for the trade between Scandinavia with the rest of the League. The population was nearly 3000. Kallikrateia founded a new colony, Potami south/west where Rhone river meets the sea.
Potami colony was flourishing by basically dominating the trade in north Germany via Rhone river. The local Germanic tribes, after the initial aggressiveness of a couple of years, they were heavily trading with Potami. Although influenced by the Greek culture the local Germanic tribes were still loose confederations of tribes with not much difference with their culture status before the contact with the Greeks. Most notably change was the start of use of League drachma in their trade deals with the League merchants. They ideal position of Potami made to become the main colony in the area with more than 5000 pop.
Ligeia was trading mostly with the local Morini and Menapi tribes and served as a supply port for the trade between Scandinavia with the rest of the League. The population was nearly 1500.
West Africa
The colony of Safi(1000 pop) during the Punic-Latin war was raided by a small group of Carthaginian forces but the garrison of the small fortress colony managed to repel them. Besides that, Safi was mostly a quiet supply port between the northern colonies and the rest of the League.
The colony of Akrai was a small supply port of 200 people, that was mostly used from ships coming from the north to avoid the currents.To expand their influence in the west Africa(since all colonies where under Palaioi and Dynatoi companies control) the Neoi company send 1000 colonist from Syracuse in a attempt to make there their own base in the Atlantic.
Neagathe had reach four thousands pop and was Under Dynatoi control. Gum and slave trade was highly profitable for the city. Besides that, Neoagathe served also as a link between Southern colonies and the rest of the League. During the Punic-Latin war Neoagathe and the southern colonies in Africa were not affected heavily. The trade suffered when Lixus was conquered for a year by Carthage but even then, the Atlantic Ocean type, league trade ships didn't have a problem to take a more wide sea route. Other than that, during the war, there was a decrease in the arrival of new colonists.
Ypernoteia was growing rapidly. The city was ideally placed on the delta of Senegal river making her the biggest trade port in west Africa.The trade with the proto- Soninke tribes was highly profitable. Slaves,gold and salt was exchanged with league’s wine,pottery and jewellery in ridiculous profitable prices for the League. Ypenoteia’s wealth attracted lots of new colonist. The league brought the new agricultural techs in west Africa and new massive farms with water mills builded around the area near Ypernoteia. Thousands of local tribesman started working as serfs in the new massive farms( in a similar model of Ptolemaic Egypt.) The massive numbers of slaves and serfs helped for large scale building projects. The last years under governor Anastasios( Palaioi company) a new big port and several other buildings was builded and three new trade hub colonies where builded. In less than 40 years the city reached 8000 pop( not counting another 10000 slaves and 8000 local serfs living in the close area) A professional mercenary force of 1000 was permanent stand by,guarding and controlling the area, mostly repelling small aggressive local tribesman group from the south.
The three new colonies where: Messopotamos on Senegal river to strength the trade with the photo-Soninke and Posidoneia and Astypylaia during an expedition South of Ypernoteia.
Mesopotamos was basically a small fortress/trade hub of 400people, deep in Senegal river were most of the trade with inland tribes occurred.
Agapio’s expedition south of Ypernoteia.
During the expedition they made a new trade colony Posidoneia in modern day Cote d ivore and then they reached Niger river were they founded a new trade hub colony Astypylaia. Then they sailed inland through Niger river with three small ships. There they made contact with the Nok civilisation/petty kingdom. The Nok people( as in OTL) were an iron age society with refined art and organised worship, metal smelting, and sufficient population to support these activities. They were the earliest producers of life-sized terracotta in the Sub-Sahara. They had horses and used iron spears and small knives,metal tools,pottery, bracelets, etc. The area was rich in Ivory,Palm oil,peanuts,limestone,iron and tin.
The capital city Taruga had more than 5000 population with a big factory area of more than 15 big furnaces.The beehive and cylindrical furnaces of Taruga was quite different in form from those of North Africa and Mesopotamia.The iron workers at Taruga certainly seem to have developed the innovation of pre-heating the air entering the furnace so as to obtain higher temperatures. After establish formal relations with the local chief/king argiros sailed back.
By place:
Ptolemaic Empire
The native Egyptian rebellion is finally crashed by Ptolemy III.
Sri lanka
Agathocleous troops repelled a small attack by Chola troops from the north of the island. A new wooden wall was builded in Eschatia. In raids deep in the island the greeks took 3000 locacs as slaves.
***Story only thread here: Story thread***
Although Iberia was once again under Massaliot league control, several rebel groups were still active.To deal with the small guerrilla Iberian rebel groups, the League formed a new unit the Peripolia. Peripolia was a group of 50 stirrup/war saddle-charge/archer horsemen's that were part of a unit of 6 Peripolia, the Peripolos. The Peripolos were stationed in a fort/military colony. This 300 cavalry troops together with 200 garrison troops where responsible for patrolling large areas in Central Iberia. 3 peripolia where always in the move and the other 3 where stand by. The patrol lasted ten days and then was replace from the stand by unit. The League formed a total of 4 Peripolos in the area of Celtiberi tribes and 2 in the area of Carpetani. This new approach had really good results for the League and quickly stabilise the rebel areas in Iberia.
- With two major (Massalia and Syracuse) and hundreds of small private libraries the demand of papyrus was big and Egypt skyrocket the prices. A trader/inventor Nearchos attached to the Museum of Massalia created a sheet of paper using mulberry and other bast fibres along with fishnets, old rags, and hemp waste.
Kassiteia was the main trade city in the North for the League, a link between the mainlands, north Gaul, north Britannike and the Scandinavia colonies. The trade of tin was flourishing and a new trade good, the coal( thanks to hypocast invention)was starting to flourish also(especially in the north Gaul and scandinavia). The city was constantly receiving new colonist from the mainland and reached fifteen thousands pop in 203 BC. Under local governor Dimitrios( a dynatoi party member) the city founded 4 new trade hubs colonies in England and Ireland and build several water mills to boost the local agriculture production. Dimitrios also received 30 new venemeres from the league council to control the north seas and lead an expedition to deal with the Hibernian Pirates. He also expanded the control of the league north-east in the lands of the aggressive tribe of Durotriges. With the help of the Belgae allies he enslaved couple of thousands and burned several villages. 3 forts/military colonies were build in the area to stabilise the control of the area.
During the Roman/Punic war Kassiteia wasn't affected so much. Like all the rest of the Europe-Atlantic colonies of the League, kassitieia was far away from the theatres of the war. Never the less around 600 soldiers left from kassitieia to join the ranks of the league army during the war. Together with them, the league ally King Imanuentius together with his troops, sailed from there for the war.
Trinovantes Kingdom
The trinovantes king Imanuentius and his troops, during the war gained quite a reputation for their fight skills. After the war he was officially invited from the League council to take part in the celebrations of the victory. After a couple of months in Masallia, Imanuentius returned to his kingdom with a big amount of war spoils. Heavily influenced from the Hellenistic culture Imanuentius converted to dodekatheism and upon his arrival in his capital he ordered in a Greek sculptor to build a Nike sculpture dedicated to the victory and a temple dedicated to Athena. He also ordered to greek architects to build a quite big building to be used as an army arsenal and kind of an "academy" to educate the children's of the nobility. At the start he had trouble to find Greek scholars to settle in his capital but after some months he managed to invited 3-4 of Greek/Gaul scholars to come for some years by paying them really big salaries. Also around 100 Greek speaking Roman woman slaves where now working in the houses of the local nobility. This changes didn't fit well with some elders of the nobility but with they majority of the Warriors/nobles stand by his side Imanuentius easily eliminated the few opposed. Trinovantes capital, Braughing, was growing fast and had now more than 7000 population with several Greek type buildings poping up all over. Hypocaust and baths was a huge trend to the locals. Trade with Kassitieia and the League in general was flourishing. Trinovantes loved Massaliot wine/oil and their exports to the league was mostly coal and wool. Imanuentius also managed to aggressively expand his kingdom considerably, with several successful expeditions against neighborhood tribes of Catuvellauni and Iceni where his veteran and far better equipped/ tech advanced army was no match for them.
Scandia
Scandia/Sweden
The trade colony Ypervoreia in Sweden was in good relations with the locals and the major trade hub in Scandia The city had now more than 3000 pop( a mix of Greeks and hellinised Gauls). The city had among others, a Wooden wall, a gymnasium, a small theatre,a temple of Athena and a public bath. The hypocaust invention had spread up in the area the last couple of years and was used a lot by now. Ypervoreia even founded 3 trade colonies by herself also. Neavoreia(600 pop) to the north , Aktio(700 pop) to the south and Argio(900 pop) in Jutland peninsula . During the Punic/Latin war Ypervoreia wasn't really affected. Around 50 man left to join the ranks of the League army and the ratio of new colonist from the motherland dropped a little bit.
The Suiones kingdom
The local tribes in the north/east were friendly with the League and in fact they were really affected by the presence of the League. By trading and interacting with the League the Suiones tribe under their chief Habra, evolved from a loose tribe confederacy to a small kingdom. Their city/ capital Suona was basically the first city in all of Scandinavia that was build by locals. They started using stone for their buildings,agriculture technics,hot tubs and leagues drachma coins also. With the help of 30 league mercenaries they organised their army and bought new better weapons and armour from the Greek/Gauls. With their new army they expanded their rule to their neighbours tribes in the north. The kingdom of Suiones was now a strong local power with a capital city of 3000 pop and hundreds of villages under control. Last but not least a epicurean Druid settled in their area and started to spread the druidic Epicureanism .
Meanwhile in the north of Neavoreia the local tribe of Sitones were more aggressive against the League. They made couple of raids to Neavoreia but they where no match against the Greekgauls superior tactics and equipment. To deal with the situation Ypervoreia organised together with their allies, the Suiones kingdom, a couple of expeditions in the north, where they burned several villages and took more than 2000 slaves.
Abalus was now basically a island city with a population of 2700. The trade of Amber was flourishing and the city was a trade link between kassitieia,north Germany,north Gaul and the Scandinavian colonies.
Baltic Sea
Chalkis was making really good profit from the trade of Amber but had serious problems with the local Baltic tribes. The city although wealthy was not the first choice for the colonists and the population was growing slowly. Chalkis had in 203 BC around two thousands pop and had just finished her new stone wall (with 6 towers with siege engines)to deal with the countless raids from local tribes. Repeated calls to the Leagues council didn't do much cause besides 300 troops that arrived several years ago not any other official help arrived to deal with the problem. Nevertheless the city was in close contact with the colonies in present day Sweden/Denmark and that helped them a lot dealing with the local tribes.
Belgae region
Kallikrateia was trading mostly with the local Frisii tribe and served as a supply port for the trade between Scandinavia with the rest of the League. The population was nearly 3000. Kallikrateia founded a new colony, Potami south/west where Rhone river meets the sea.
Potami colony was flourishing by basically dominating the trade in north Germany via Rhone river. The local Germanic tribes, after the initial aggressiveness of a couple of years, they were heavily trading with Potami. Although influenced by the Greek culture the local Germanic tribes were still loose confederations of tribes with not much difference with their culture status before the contact with the Greeks. Most notably change was the start of use of League drachma in their trade deals with the League merchants. They ideal position of Potami made to become the main colony in the area with more than 5000 pop.
Ligeia was trading mostly with the local Morini and Menapi tribes and served as a supply port for the trade between Scandinavia with the rest of the League. The population was nearly 1500.
West Africa
The colony of Safi(1000 pop) during the Punic-Latin war was raided by a small group of Carthaginian forces but the garrison of the small fortress colony managed to repel them. Besides that, Safi was mostly a quiet supply port between the northern colonies and the rest of the League.
The colony of Akrai was a small supply port of 200 people, that was mostly used from ships coming from the north to avoid the currents.To expand their influence in the west Africa(since all colonies where under Palaioi and Dynatoi companies control) the Neoi company send 1000 colonist from Syracuse in a attempt to make there their own base in the Atlantic.
Neagathe had reach four thousands pop and was Under Dynatoi control. Gum and slave trade was highly profitable for the city. Besides that, Neoagathe served also as a link between Southern colonies and the rest of the League. During the Punic-Latin war Neoagathe and the southern colonies in Africa were not affected heavily. The trade suffered when Lixus was conquered for a year by Carthage but even then, the Atlantic Ocean type, league trade ships didn't have a problem to take a more wide sea route. Other than that, during the war, there was a decrease in the arrival of new colonists.
Ypernoteia was growing rapidly. The city was ideally placed on the delta of Senegal river making her the biggest trade port in west Africa.The trade with the proto- Soninke tribes was highly profitable. Slaves,gold and salt was exchanged with league’s wine,pottery and jewellery in ridiculous profitable prices for the League. Ypenoteia’s wealth attracted lots of new colonist. The league brought the new agricultural techs in west Africa and new massive farms with water mills builded around the area near Ypernoteia. Thousands of local tribesman started working as serfs in the new massive farms( in a similar model of Ptolemaic Egypt.) The massive numbers of slaves and serfs helped for large scale building projects. The last years under governor Anastasios( Palaioi company) a new big port and several other buildings was builded and three new trade hub colonies where builded. In less than 40 years the city reached 8000 pop( not counting another 10000 slaves and 8000 local serfs living in the close area) A professional mercenary force of 1000 was permanent stand by,guarding and controlling the area, mostly repelling small aggressive local tribesman group from the south.
The three new colonies where: Messopotamos on Senegal river to strength the trade with the photo-Soninke and Posidoneia and Astypylaia during an expedition South of Ypernoteia.
Mesopotamos was basically a small fortress/trade hub of 400people, deep in Senegal river were most of the trade with inland tribes occurred.
Agapio’s expedition south of Ypernoteia.
During the expedition they made a new trade colony Posidoneia in modern day Cote d ivore and then they reached Niger river were they founded a new trade hub colony Astypylaia. Then they sailed inland through Niger river with three small ships. There they made contact with the Nok civilisation/petty kingdom. The Nok people( as in OTL) were an iron age society with refined art and organised worship, metal smelting, and sufficient population to support these activities. They were the earliest producers of life-sized terracotta in the Sub-Sahara. They had horses and used iron spears and small knives,metal tools,pottery, bracelets, etc. The area was rich in Ivory,Palm oil,peanuts,limestone,iron and tin.
The capital city Taruga had more than 5000 population with a big factory area of more than 15 big furnaces.The beehive and cylindrical furnaces of Taruga was quite different in form from those of North Africa and Mesopotamia.The iron workers at Taruga certainly seem to have developed the innovation of pre-heating the air entering the furnace so as to obtain higher temperatures. After establish formal relations with the local chief/king argiros sailed back.
By place:
Ptolemaic Empire
The native Egyptian rebellion is finally crashed by Ptolemy III.
Sri lanka
Agathocleous troops repelled a small attack by Chola troops from the north of the island. A new wooden wall was builded in Eschatia. In raids deep in the island the greeks took 3000 locacs as slaves.
***Story only thread here: Story thread***
Last edited:
How does the expanison of the league through southern Gaul compare to Iberia. It seems to me, although slower, the expansion through southern Gaul was better because of assimilation causing few uprisings if many against the league. Compared to Iberia, which the league had to put down rebels militarily.
Skallagrim
Banned
Look at all those beautiful colonies and outposts, all the way out there. I love how they are flourishing-- especially the ones in West Africa.
Just, so much Hellenism
A few questions/observations
The Eschatians
1) is that going to be a term for them or no?
2) Serious question regarding the Indian Caste system. Whilst not as we think of it today, we're at the tail end of the "Second Urbanisation", which had some interesting ideas on social rank (i.e. agriculture, trade and cattle was good, basket-weaving and sweeping were bad). Add into this the gahapatis who apparently paid the bulk of tax revenues as land-holding agriculturists with slaves and hired labourers. (I'll fess up, I'm nicking this near-verbatim from wiki ). I'm looking forward to seeing the contrast between the Greek and S.Indian ideas of class/caste.
3) With this MASSIVE slave-taking, of nearly 20% of the new states population is slaves. Whilst I admit slavery was much larger (terrifyingly almost certainly larger than the population of their owners), which approach to the Indians are we going to see? The Spartan helot system? Philip of Macedons Benevolent Ruler? Platos Republic?
- Feel free to not answer these now, I'm just excited and waiting for (probably a while down the line) the profile on the Eschatians. *squee*
Baltic/West Africa
I'm liking that the Baltic and West African colonies are propagating. I'm looking forward to the introduction of Baltic and West African ideas and innovations. I'd guess the Baltic would want to develop/adopt cold-climate agricultural practices. Lord knows I have no idea what that entails besides the Heavy Plow, which I don't expect for a few hundred years at least. What ships are being used in West Africa by the way? I'm assuming Venemeres of some sort, in which case, how far west are they going to go back north, it must either be perilous, or they're adapting it to go that far out to sea. The currents are very much one-way in that region. In addition, if they swing far enough out west, or get taken west by the currents....
A few questions/observations
The Eschatians
1) is that going to be a term for them or no?
2) Serious question regarding the Indian Caste system. Whilst not as we think of it today, we're at the tail end of the "Second Urbanisation", which had some interesting ideas on social rank (i.e. agriculture, trade and cattle was good, basket-weaving and sweeping were bad). Add into this the gahapatis who apparently paid the bulk of tax revenues as land-holding agriculturists with slaves and hired labourers. (I'll fess up, I'm nicking this near-verbatim from wiki ). I'm looking forward to seeing the contrast between the Greek and S.Indian ideas of class/caste.
3) With this MASSIVE slave-taking, of nearly 20% of the new states population is slaves. Whilst I admit slavery was much larger (terrifyingly almost certainly larger than the population of their owners), which approach to the Indians are we going to see? The Spartan helot system? Philip of Macedons Benevolent Ruler? Platos Republic?
- Feel free to not answer these now, I'm just excited and waiting for (probably a while down the line) the profile on the Eschatians. *squee*
Baltic/West Africa
I'm liking that the Baltic and West African colonies are propagating. I'm looking forward to the introduction of Baltic and West African ideas and innovations. I'd guess the Baltic would want to develop/adopt cold-climate agricultural practices. Lord knows I have no idea what that entails besides the Heavy Plow, which I don't expect for a few hundred years at least. What ships are being used in West Africa by the way? I'm assuming Venemeres of some sort, in which case, how far west are they going to go back north, it must either be perilous, or they're adapting it to go that far out to sea. The currents are very much one-way in that region. In addition, if they swing far enough out west, or get taken west by the currents....
just once Imanuentius a lover of all Hellenic, he could take him and his wife from Messala, which could be either Aspasia.
And second ... There is a version that the runes originated from the Greek alphabet.
And second ... There is a version that the runes originated from the Greek alphabet.
The Baltic peoples are after all surviving in whatever scanty numbers they have with methods they have developed. Surely when heavier plows (and horse collars) are invented they will be better off. But I figure everything rising now in Hyperboria is rising on existing bases. The Greek traders form centers of attraction and diffusion of new ideas and methods, and probably keeping everyone drawn into the narrow regions they directly dominate fed is a major issue indeed. Trade on a massive enough scale to deeply transform the region is not reasonable, though it would not be impossible for significant trade in foodstuffs from say Britain to gradually develop. By "significant" I mean merely enough to sustain a small class of League traders and build up some regional aristocracies beyond OTL levels.
Massive demographic changes must await inventions that are not likely to happen fast. The League traders may well accelerate things, but this is why I say some time ago that League "wealth" in the north is like owning the deed to all of Antarctica! The net is spread wide but there is not a lot to catch in it. Still it is an opportunity for some people to get richer, so it is not crazy it is happening, and still it will accelerate things. Perhaps I was overly pessimistic to say it would take a thousand years for Western Europe to develop to levels we think of as normal, but insisting it might take 500 years seems reasonable. That's still an acceleration of 500 years over OTL! But the League is merely sowing, someone else will reap.
I think maybe we've already discussed probabilities of two-way transAtlantic trade? If not, I want to stress (again if I am) that merely getting blown across the ocean to America is not enough. One must have some reliable means of getting home again, or contact is sporadic and legendary rather than effective trade and colonization. I believe it took a long time for Europe to become systematically aware of the Americas because a lot of arts had to be mastered first; having better hulls is just one of these. One requires better sails, better navigation, better storage of foodstuffs and potable, yet hydrating drink of some kind.
I am pretty amazed the author has dared to postulate systematic trade with West Africa. It is not too hard for Classical ships to get there but very difficult to come back north again. To seek the winds that can do that one must venture far out of sight of land, learn the deep ocean currents and winds, tack against them. If Massaliote traders are getting home by means of striking out to the deep sea out of sight of land, then indeed some of them ought to wind up in Brazil or the Caribbean by mistake. But will they have any idea how to get back to Europe from there? I suspect they won't dare try, or if they do come to grief, and the upshot is a few dozen crews over several centuries having minimal impact on the Native peoples, and no news of their landfalls ever getting back to Massalia.
Massive demographic changes must await inventions that are not likely to happen fast. The League traders may well accelerate things, but this is why I say some time ago that League "wealth" in the north is like owning the deed to all of Antarctica! The net is spread wide but there is not a lot to catch in it. Still it is an opportunity for some people to get richer, so it is not crazy it is happening, and still it will accelerate things. Perhaps I was overly pessimistic to say it would take a thousand years for Western Europe to develop to levels we think of as normal, but insisting it might take 500 years seems reasonable. That's still an acceleration of 500 years over OTL! But the League is merely sowing, someone else will reap.
I think maybe we've already discussed probabilities of two-way transAtlantic trade? If not, I want to stress (again if I am) that merely getting blown across the ocean to America is not enough. One must have some reliable means of getting home again, or contact is sporadic and legendary rather than effective trade and colonization. I believe it took a long time for Europe to become systematically aware of the Americas because a lot of arts had to be mastered first; having better hulls is just one of these. One requires better sails, better navigation, better storage of foodstuffs and potable, yet hydrating drink of some kind.
I am pretty amazed the author has dared to postulate systematic trade with West Africa. It is not too hard for Classical ships to get there but very difficult to come back north again. To seek the winds that can do that one must venture far out of sight of land, learn the deep ocean currents and winds, tack against them. If Massaliote traders are getting home by means of striking out to the deep sea out of sight of land, then indeed some of them ought to wind up in Brazil or the Caribbean by mistake. But will they have any idea how to get back to Europe from there? I suspect they won't dare try, or if they do come to grief, and the upshot is a few dozen crews over several centuries having minimal impact on the Native peoples, and no news of their landfalls ever getting back to Massalia.
yeap true. South Gaul its a different story compared with Iberia. After all the League is ablend of Greek-Gauls so way easier to interact with Gaul tribes. Iberia was not really planned to be conquered( kind of similar with Rome in OTL)
I wonder if this might be a major trade route for the League. I'm still mulling over some disagreements with your timeframe as a result. Because the League has a significant agricultural sector by virtue of being in Southern France, huge food exports could be entirely feasible, assuming that the northern territories can find decent mineral resources, or notable goods. We've seen this to an extent with OTL Cornwall. If they go much further north not only will they find some significant gold deposits (heh, an Helleno-Baltic gold rush!) but a healthy fur trade can be added to the norths resource base. Plus, the wood in the north (notably Spruce) has some good uses. If they can realise Spruce makes fantastic wood pulp for paper (as demand has begun), and then use Pine, and other such trees to make craft? You could see a large trade in food for timber - especially if the League navy prefers northern woods. If there are directed efforts for this purpose, I'd expect to see a very profitable industrial system within 100 years of the start of this process, which would support more rapid expansion. But we're looking at resource extraction quality colonies, not S.Gaul Mk II. With the expansion of the colonies locally? I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't already making ships locally with these woods.
Oh, you're totally right. Two-way trade across the Atlantic is not likely yet at all. Hence why I was curious as to the ships in use in W.Africa - they need to swing out west into open ocean to make their way back at any great pace. But an accident and a trip to confirm I don't think is impossible, but would not be cost-effective. Equivalent to a trip to the Moon in the Apollo days.
Here is hoping for at least someone trusted to come back - even if only to start the 'Apollo Project' (I won't lie, Apollo, Sun, Setting in the West - sailing west, the expedition names itself).
Nice ideas @RogueTraderEnthusiast !
Hmm good idea. Agathocleus is their king, so maybe a Eschatian kingdom?
. As always ill try to use the OTL facts of the area and merge it with my ATL. Ofc Hellenism is the dominant factor and what Eschatians are use to.
As you said 20% is not that much for the Greeks,Romans of this era. About the approach i need to think about it. Probably more close to helot i think(since they gonna use them in heavy labor to rebuilt). I am open to any suggestions.
Heavy Plow is not that hard i think. I am not saying that will pop up in the next years but we are 100 deep in a ATL that tech runs faster than OTL( Museums/universities is a trend not like OTL with only Alexandreia)
About sea travel i have all ready explained about travel in Atlantic. The league is the most advanced nation in the world in tech and especially in Sea travel. The have advanced ships,compass, the measurement of latitude(OTL).They even knew that the tides caused by the moon(OTL). So yes there are currents in north west Africa but they can deal with it. Btw the currents is the the reason why the build the colony Akrai in Grand Canaria.
Last but not least: Carthage made several periplus in that area in OTL.
*Venemeres was a atlantic sea type of ship, a large "galley" that used two masts(fore-mast and main-mast), a deck and a stern-hung rudder. It was equally in size with a hexareme and was inspired by the Venetii tribe ships.The descriptions of the Venetii ships describe a very different style of vessel. Higher sides than the Roman types opposing it and relying upon sails exclusively. The water they plied was the channel and western France, rougher seas were to be expected. But also, since the area had a lot of shallows, a deep draft would be a detriment. This implies a wide beam (to stabilize for the masts and sails and carry a worthwhile load) and later vessels of the region had wide beams, so it is likely the Venetii ships did also.
stern-hung rudder: Duplidus a hellenised Gaul, mathematician and engineer, who studied in the past st the museum of Massalia under Archimedes, while he was working in the naval arsenal of Naucratia trying to find solutions for some contolling issues in the handling of the new bigger venemeres came up with the idea of a stern-hung rudder.
Hmm good idea. Agathocleus is their king, so maybe a Eschatian kingdom?
Thats also really interesting! I am checking wiki and other pages about this also also
. As always ill try to use the OTL facts of the area and merge it with my ATL. Ofc Hellenism is the dominant factor and what Eschatians are use to.As you said 20% is not that much for the Greeks,Romans of this era. About the approach i need to think about it. Probably more close to helot i think(since they gonna use them in heavy labor to rebuilt). I am open to any suggestions.
Heavy Plow is not that hard i think. I am not saying that will pop up in the next years but we are 100 deep in a ATL that tech runs faster than OTL( Museums/universities is a trend not like OTL with only Alexandreia)
About sea travel i have all ready explained about travel in Atlantic. The league is the most advanced nation in the world in tech and especially in Sea travel. The have advanced ships,compass, the measurement of latitude(OTL).They even knew that the tides caused by the moon(OTL). So yes there are currents in north west Africa but they can deal with it. Btw the currents is the the reason why the build the colony Akrai in Grand Canaria.
Last but not least: Carthage made several periplus in that area in OTL.
*Venemeres was a atlantic sea type of ship, a large "galley" that used two masts(fore-mast and main-mast), a deck and a stern-hung rudder. It was equally in size with a hexareme and was inspired by the Venetii tribe ships.The descriptions of the Venetii ships describe a very different style of vessel. Higher sides than the Roman types opposing it and relying upon sails exclusively. The water they plied was the channel and western France, rougher seas were to be expected. But also, since the area had a lot of shallows, a deep draft would be a detriment. This implies a wide beam (to stabilize for the masts and sails and carry a worthwhile load) and later vessels of the region had wide beams, so it is likely the Venetii ships did also.
stern-hung rudder: Duplidus a hellenised Gaul, mathematician and engineer, who studied in the past st the museum of Massalia under Archimedes, while he was working in the naval arsenal of Naucratia trying to find solutions for some contolling issues in the handling of the new bigger venemeres came up with the idea of a stern-hung rudder.
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I kind of agree with what @RogueTraderEnthusiast all ready replied:
After all we are talking about places that have now around 80 years of contact with the advanced civ of the league. North Europe is evolving way faster than OTL. After all thats one major part of what this ATL is about. We cant have for granted what happen in OTL anymore, but at the same time i don't say that we gonna see ASB things to happen.
Trade with America is out of the question. At least not for hundreds of years. Ok maybe a ship go by mistake but thats all.
As all ready replied to roguetradeenthusiast :
About sea travel i have all ready explained about travel in Atlantic. The league is the most advanced nation in the world in tech and especially in Sea travel. The have advanced ships,compass, the measurement of latitude(OTL).They even knew that the tides caused by the moon(OTL). So yes there are currents in north west Africa but they can deal with it. Btw the currents is the the reason why the build the colony Akrai in Grand Canaria. Last but not least: Carthage made several periplus in that area in OTL.
*Venemeres was a atlantic sea type of ship, a large "galley" that used two masts(fore-mast and main-mast), a deck and a stern-hung rudder. It was equally in size with a hexareme and was inspired by the Venetii tribe ships.The descriptions of the Venetii ships describe a very different style of vessel. Higher sides than the Roman types opposing it and relying upon sails exclusively. The water they plied was the channel and western France, rougher seas were to be expected. But also, since the area had a lot of shallows, a deep draft would be a detriment. This implies a wide beam (to stabilize for the masts and sails and carry a worthwhile load) and later vessels of the region had wide beams, so it is likely the Venetii ships did also.
stern-hung rudder: Duplidus a hellenised Gaul, mathematician and engineer, who studied in the past st the museum of Massalia under Archimedes, while he was working in the naval arsenal of Naucratia trying to find solutions for some contolling issues in the handling of the new bigger venemeres came up with the idea of a stern-hung rudder.
So i think my scenario is plausible.
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Nah the League is all ready overextend. But you never know. It depends how many years/centuries this ATL will continue. A periplus of Africa sounds great to be honest
Skallagrim
Banned
Nah the League is all ready overextend. But you never know. It depends how many years/centuries this ATL will continue. A periplus of Africa sounds great to be honest
Reaching southernmost Africa from the east is actually far more expedient. Greek and Roman trade doen the African coast was an OTL fact. This seems like a job for the Ptolemaic dynasty! (Provided they can get their act together in the north, first, what with native revolts and Seleucids and all that.)
Ptolemies going south along East Africa is promising. Someone asked not too far upthread should they conquer Kush or take out Antioch, and I argued war with Seleucia was probably the priority.
Kush itself is not all that much of a prize. Mainly the motive would be to eliminate piracy on the eastbound route. But getting past it, then new prospects open up. But like northern Europe, it would be a matter of developing links with people who aren't very advanced and only gradually would the market expand. Madagascar might be unpopulated at this point and so might be a good settler colony, but people would be adapting to an unfamiliar climate.
One good thing the Ptolemies might get out of an expedition to Kush is learning to use domesticated camels. If they can get a jump on camels, given Egypt being situated in a desert and her major frontiers largely being on desert, that would be a great advantage over Seleucia to the east, and getting down to the Sahel west of the Nile.
So maybe it would have been better for the current king to "timidly" go south after all, since his successor could really do a number on Seleucia with camel cavalry!
------
Now, Sersor and RTE--am I reading you correctly that you both believe that the Baltic peoples can enjoy great population expansion by importing loads of food from the south in exchange for northern trade goods, primarily timber (or just building ships in northern yards) and furs?
In a sense this is exactly what happened to Native American peoples who got into trading relationships with English and French traders. Entire societies would pretty much give up their subsistence economies and work to gather the trade goods Europeans wanted, and then the traders would sell them food. Or another society would get into the business of providing food for overland traders and fur-hunters, killing lots of bison and making pemmican and other foodstuffs to trade.
But even in the 18th or even 19th centuries, this did not allow a tremendous population growth. The traders were able to provide foodstuffs on an adequate scale to relieve these people of subsistence labor because their populations were small! Furthermore they were doing it by tapping in to the Early Modern European food trade. And of course hauling it on fairly modern sailing ships.
Rome was able to feed itself on distant grain markets because they could threaten to beat up anyone who dared to interfere with their grain ships. By commanding first the Western Med, and then Egypt, they could scrounge up enough to keep the city's poor fed.
I have a very hard time believing that Hyperborean trade in furs and even timber would be so lucrative as to attract diversion of food on a grand scale. It might serve, as I speculated, to enrich the lifestyles of an extended regional elite, much of it the Greek traders themselves, but not nearly enough to become the basic subsistence of the majority. Regional elites would be standing on an rather thin base, I'd think.
Sersor, do you ever check up for independent opinions on how fast technology can be developed? There is a pace to it I think. A Classical society can be more innovative and scientific than the OTL norm, but this should not mean every time they stumble into a problem that we know can eventually have a technical solution, they immediately invent that solution. It seems to me that you've gifted them with ships already that should take some centuries to develop to the level they seem to have. Bad enough, but at least the League people already knew a lot about ships in general, and they are developing the venemere to satisfy their own needs. The odds that some philosopher-tinker down in the Massalia Museon would scratch his head and come up with a new heavy plow that is not needed in Massalia nor can be tested or refined to a task that would be in soil hundreds of miles to the north is just silly! Even if necessity is the mother of invention, how does that help a bunch of Baltic people who have the necessity, get someone down in the Med to invent something needed for plowing soils he's never seen? The ones with the needs are not the ones with the alleged invention factories. This amazing spirit of innovation, and its material substrate which Massalia may have but Hyperboria lacks, needs to be imported up north for someone to plausibly invent the plow early because of Massaliote influence.
Or one could argue, as I did, that a general intensification of trade, not to levels where an expanding population of Baltic people are all eating food grown in Britain or farther south, but more modestly to levels where some of their aristocrats feast in that way some of the time, will somewhat accelerate inventions that OTL would take longer to develop. This I grant. 500 instead of 1000 years for the plow would be excessive if in fact the plow we are talking about were introduced into the Baltic long before 800 CE in OTL. But I think it did wait until at least 600 CE; in that case 400 years for an eventual invention of the plow, after Hyperboreans have had contact with Massalia for centuries, seems generous; that's still 400 years in the future. Massalian society might last 4 or 500 years more, I suppose, in some form or other, and thus technically be around to witness the transformation of the Baltic agrarian situation. Meanwhile of course the plow is just one invention of many that needs to be developed. Having it by 200 CE instead of 600 CE does strike me as remarkable progress. Having it within 100 years of first contact with the traders---no! Certainly not if the southern based inventors don't have personal reasons to develop one. After such plows exist, then people familiar with them, even ones who are not regional natives, can readily see when they visit peoples without them, "hey, you people need one of these!" Before they exist, everyone they meet will be some one who managed to get along in life well enough to meet them, without it. So who is going to decide to invent one? Generally inventions are realized by people inspired by the problem they face. It might possibly be done in the south on some king's commission, there is no way it would be done on wild speculation!
It may be I continue to underestimate the speed with which Masssaliote technology is developed. If so I dd that because no one else in OTL history progresses that fast and that steadily. Still less can I believe that a distant outpost can do it instead.
The League has wealth, it has power, and it has advancing technology. Don't gild the lily by insisting they can come up with just about any invention they like, as fast as we can name it. Some will come quickly and easily, some will take some time.
Kush itself is not all that much of a prize. Mainly the motive would be to eliminate piracy on the eastbound route. But getting past it, then new prospects open up. But like northern Europe, it would be a matter of developing links with people who aren't very advanced and only gradually would the market expand. Madagascar might be unpopulated at this point and so might be a good settler colony, but people would be adapting to an unfamiliar climate.
One good thing the Ptolemies might get out of an expedition to Kush is learning to use domesticated camels. If they can get a jump on camels, given Egypt being situated in a desert and her major frontiers largely being on desert, that would be a great advantage over Seleucia to the east, and getting down to the Sahel west of the Nile.
So maybe it would have been better for the current king to "timidly" go south after all, since his successor could really do a number on Seleucia with camel cavalry!
------
Now, Sersor and RTE--am I reading you correctly that you both believe that the Baltic peoples can enjoy great population expansion by importing loads of food from the south in exchange for northern trade goods, primarily timber (or just building ships in northern yards) and furs?
In a sense this is exactly what happened to Native American peoples who got into trading relationships with English and French traders. Entire societies would pretty much give up their subsistence economies and work to gather the trade goods Europeans wanted, and then the traders would sell them food. Or another society would get into the business of providing food for overland traders and fur-hunters, killing lots of bison and making pemmican and other foodstuffs to trade.
But even in the 18th or even 19th centuries, this did not allow a tremendous population growth. The traders were able to provide foodstuffs on an adequate scale to relieve these people of subsistence labor because their populations were small! Furthermore they were doing it by tapping in to the Early Modern European food trade. And of course hauling it on fairly modern sailing ships.
Rome was able to feed itself on distant grain markets because they could threaten to beat up anyone who dared to interfere with their grain ships. By commanding first the Western Med, and then Egypt, they could scrounge up enough to keep the city's poor fed.
I have a very hard time believing that Hyperborean trade in furs and even timber would be so lucrative as to attract diversion of food on a grand scale. It might serve, as I speculated, to enrich the lifestyles of an extended regional elite, much of it the Greek traders themselves, but not nearly enough to become the basic subsistence of the majority. Regional elites would be standing on an rather thin base, I'd think.
Sersor, do you ever check up for independent opinions on how fast technology can be developed? There is a pace to it I think. A Classical society can be more innovative and scientific than the OTL norm, but this should not mean every time they stumble into a problem that we know can eventually have a technical solution, they immediately invent that solution. It seems to me that you've gifted them with ships already that should take some centuries to develop to the level they seem to have. Bad enough, but at least the League people already knew a lot about ships in general, and they are developing the venemere to satisfy their own needs. The odds that some philosopher-tinker down in the Massalia Museon would scratch his head and come up with a new heavy plow that is not needed in Massalia nor can be tested or refined to a task that would be in soil hundreds of miles to the north is just silly! Even if necessity is the mother of invention, how does that help a bunch of Baltic people who have the necessity, get someone down in the Med to invent something needed for plowing soils he's never seen? The ones with the needs are not the ones with the alleged invention factories. This amazing spirit of innovation, and its material substrate which Massalia may have but Hyperboria lacks, needs to be imported up north for someone to plausibly invent the plow early because of Massaliote influence.
Or one could argue, as I did, that a general intensification of trade, not to levels where an expanding population of Baltic people are all eating food grown in Britain or farther south, but more modestly to levels where some of their aristocrats feast in that way some of the time, will somewhat accelerate inventions that OTL would take longer to develop. This I grant. 500 instead of 1000 years for the plow would be excessive if in fact the plow we are talking about were introduced into the Baltic long before 800 CE in OTL. But I think it did wait until at least 600 CE; in that case 400 years for an eventual invention of the plow, after Hyperboreans have had contact with Massalia for centuries, seems generous; that's still 400 years in the future. Massalian society might last 4 or 500 years more, I suppose, in some form or other, and thus technically be around to witness the transformation of the Baltic agrarian situation. Meanwhile of course the plow is just one invention of many that needs to be developed. Having it by 200 CE instead of 600 CE does strike me as remarkable progress. Having it within 100 years of first contact with the traders---no! Certainly not if the southern based inventors don't have personal reasons to develop one. After such plows exist, then people familiar with them, even ones who are not regional natives, can readily see when they visit peoples without them, "hey, you people need one of these!" Before they exist, everyone they meet will be some one who managed to get along in life well enough to meet them, without it. So who is going to decide to invent one? Generally inventions are realized by people inspired by the problem they face. It might possibly be done in the south on some king's commission, there is no way it would be done on wild speculation!
It may be I continue to underestimate the speed with which Masssaliote technology is developed. If so I dd that because no one else in OTL history progresses that fast and that steadily. Still less can I believe that a distant outpost can do it instead.
The League has wealth, it has power, and it has advancing technology. Don't gild the lily by insisting they can come up with just about any invention they like, as fast as we can name it. Some will come quickly and easily, some will take some time.
I'll prefix this by saying I pretty much agree with you on all counts Shevek Especially regarding concerns over plausibility (in economics and technology). I hope I'm not coming across as hopelessly optimistic, I think I'm just drawing different conclusions.
I think you've got it close to what I meant. I'll expound if you don't mind.
I wasn't so much thinking of the Baltic people, more the Massaliot settlers and the Hellenobalts that form part of their societies. I think whilst you're looking at the Native Americans, I'm looking at the American Settlers. Their population explosion was significant, and in 100-200 years created an economy so large and potent that not only did it kick out the metropole, it was the beating heart of one of the single largest trade loops in history.
Am I saying timber is a Hellenobaltic Cotton? No way. I'm downscaling the value of the goods. Slaves weren't cheap commodities, and much more expensive than good - I see the reduction in cost from Cotton/Slaves to Wood/Food somewhat similar. Even if the food is very basic, local agriculture would be the source of most flavor. This is still quite a spartan economy nonetheless. Heck, you could make an argument that Balts might make valuable slaves back in Massalia, and are a better export.
Gold is somewhat obvious, if you don't mind me skipping over that point I made - to look at furs. The short version is that it does depend on demand, which will be larger in the north than Massalia proper. But fur was the main income of the French colonies - to the point that it nearly wiped out the North American beaver until such point as fashions changed. Is the source as large in Scandinavia? No. There aren't beavers. I don't doubt that the demand and supply are both scaled in similar measures for a demand for furs, at least for people working in cold conditions, i.e. The Northern Economies.
The other aspect I'm purposely taking into account is military renovation, but trade as well. We're in the early days of British urbanization. Sure this will mean more demand for wood, of which local wood is in great supply, but also in ships, where the Baltic also benefits from an emerging market there. I honestly do not believe that the current shipbuilding industry in Massalia proper can begin to supply the demand that is going to emerge. Plus, if we can have a peaceful Britannia, that is co-operative, the wool trade that the Romans saw flourish IOTL, could emerge here, for less money - which can create a feedback loop between Britannia and the Baltic.
That is pretty much the crux of my posotion. Anything the Metropole wants is a great kick-start, but the Baltic and Britannia are connected to each other as well as the wider world - rather than develop domestic economies slowly in relative isolation, we've got some beautiful feedback loops.
Then again, maybe you accommodated for that with your 500 year estimate. Hope that comes across as plausible!
Especially regarding concerns over plausibility (in economics and technology). I hope I'm not coming across as hopelessly optimistic, I think I'm just drawing different conclusions.I think you've got it close to what I meant. I'll expound if you don't mind.
I wasn't so much thinking of the Baltic people, more the Massaliot settlers and the Hellenobalts that form part of their societies. I think whilst you're looking at the Native Americans, I'm looking at the American Settlers. Their population explosion was significant, and in 100-200 years created an economy so large and potent that not only did it kick out the metropole, it was the beating heart of one of the single largest trade loops in history.
Am I saying timber is a Hellenobaltic Cotton? No way. I'm downscaling the value of the goods. Slaves weren't cheap commodities, and much more expensive than good - I see the reduction in cost from Cotton/Slaves to Wood/Food somewhat similar. Even if the food is very basic, local agriculture would be the source of most flavor. This is still quite a spartan economy nonetheless. Heck, you could make an argument that Balts might make valuable slaves back in Massalia, and are a better export.
Gold is somewhat obvious, if you don't mind me skipping over that point I made - to look at furs. The short version is that it does depend on demand, which will be larger in the north than Massalia proper. But fur was the main income of the French colonies - to the point that it nearly wiped out the North American beaver until such point as fashions changed. Is the source as large in Scandinavia? No. There aren't beavers. I don't doubt that the demand and supply are both scaled in similar measures for a demand for furs, at least for people working in cold conditions, i.e. The Northern Economies.
The other aspect I'm purposely taking into account is military renovation, but trade as well. We're in the early days of British urbanization. Sure this will mean more demand for wood, of which local wood is in great supply, but also in ships, where the Baltic also benefits from an emerging market there. I honestly do not believe that the current shipbuilding industry in Massalia proper can begin to supply the demand that is going to emerge. Plus, if we can have a peaceful Britannia, that is co-operative, the wool trade that the Romans saw flourish IOTL, could emerge here, for less money - which can create a feedback loop between Britannia and the Baltic.
That is pretty much the crux of my posotion. Anything the Metropole wants is a great kick-start, but the Baltic and Britannia are connected to each other as well as the wider world - rather than develop domestic economies slowly in relative isolation, we've got some beautiful feedback loops.
Then again, maybe you accommodated for that with your 500 year estimate. Hope that comes across as plausible!
Well for Ptolemaic Empire and Seleucid Empire, Syria will always be the big prize.
Thats a good idea.Plus eliminate piracy is also important for Ptolemaic Empire.
Colonies in Madagaskar! Sounds great. For sure i am going to check it out.
I agree with @RogueTraderEnthusiast answer more or less. I am not saying that the interaction with the league will have a huge population expansion to the locals but that with the rise of the league colonies, we will see new cultures to rise in that areas. A fusion of Greco-Gaul-Baltic culture in the future could be awesome! For example this cultural change started to happen all ready with the rise of the first small kingdom in Scandia.
Ofc there is a pace in tech development. As you said this "classical society"ATL is more innovative than the OTL. In fact 3rd century BC was in OTL an age of wonders. So i think i am not overdoing it but instead i am answering to myself, to this:WI more museums in 3rd century BC.
About the ships, as you said also, they all ready knew lots of things in general and they took some ideas from Venetii tribe ships(OTL atlantic ocean ships). Besides new types of ships "polymeres" etc were build in that century. All this make a solid backbone for my ship techs to be plausible i think.
About stirrup and compass ok its more extreme but i used one of the biggest minds and inventors of all times Archimedes to make the breakthrough. Plus for both of this inventions there are reports of being in use in Asia around the same time(OTL). I agree with your example about the heavy plow but they heavy plow its not invented in this ATL. I just said that can be invented faster in this ATL than 800-900 AD in OTL.
I believe the same.
Skallagrim
Banned
There are essentially two big factors when one is doing "ATL tech development". One is the tech tree. The other is the randomness of human creativity.
That first one means: you can't suddenly develop a complex technology without having previously invented the earlier technologies needed to develop it. For instance, as is currently being discussed in another thread, to get to a printing press you need to invent both the types to print with, the press to use, and material to print on. All these arge going to be invented separately, for different purposes, and only once you have them do you get the ability to invent the printing press.
Which in turn brings us to the second factor: when that printing press gets invented is sort of random. The fact that it can be done does not mean it will be done. The classic example is the fact that the Incas had invented the wheel, but used it only to make toys for children. One would think the obvious applications would occur... but no. At least, not yet. Statistically, it will likely occur to someone at some point. It's just that the europeans got there before that point was reached.
Regarding the first factor, this TL is doing extremely well in my opinion. No blantanly impossible inventions are suddenly presented. It is carefully explained where innovations come from (as with the ship design), or the innovations in question were just plain possible at the time without precursor developments required. So bravo for that! Most people are a lot more sloppy about that.
But regarding the second factor, there is a great risk of just believing "oh, surely they would think of that?" -- while that's in fact not the case. Things seem obvious in hindsight, but are less clear in the moment. Basically, I do not believe for one second that anyone from light-soil Southern Europe would go about inventing the heavy plough. Does not happen. There's no need. That plough was needed to work the heavier clay soil in Northern Europe. And then plausibility comes in. When would such an invention be plausible? When someone, for some reason, wants to develop agriculture in northern areas. The League colonies can certainly help such developments along, but that would take time. Again: plausibility. Creativity is random. The more people are trying to use that land, with inferior, non-ideal ploughs... the more likely it becomes that one of them gets fed up and starts thinking about alternatives. But I don't see that happening at the current time in this TL. Northern Europe isn't developed and thickly settled enough for it. In a few hundred years? Yes. Count on it. But not yet.
This is pretty much how I treat this issue. Now, the ship development has a good reason to come early in exactly this scenario, so it's extremely plausible that it comes early. And the heavy plough can come earlier, but not this early (even though it is theoretically possible). Circumstances matter. And then there are many, many other ideas-- such as the stirrup. These, too, become available much earlier in this TL. That, too, is possible. The very practical, tech-oriented culture of Massalia makes this reasonable. But to keep it all realistic, there should be other developments where the randomness factor turns out differently. which could be developed right now, because there's no practical obstacle, but which wiull simply not come up for a few centuries... because of a lapse in creativity.
I would urge anyone going about ATL tech development to write out a tech tree. Then consider circumstance and motivation. Which developments are most likey for that culture, in those geographical circumstances? And which are least likely? For Massalia, developing new ships is extremely likely, and inventing the heavy plough (at this point) is extremely unlikely. So to balance it out, I'd say: give them the ships, but purposely push back the heavy plough a few centuries-- until demographic developments in northern Europe make it more plausible that such a thing would be invented there (where it is needed, unlike in southern Europe).
And things like the stirrup, that could just go either way? I suggest using a randomiser of some sort. For every new invention along every branch of your tech tree, have a computer decide on a truly random number between, say, 50 and 500 (there are websites that do this). The resulting number is the amount of years it takes for the new invention to come about, counting from the time of the previous invention on that branch. So a press gets invented (say an olive press)? Cool. Randomise a number for the invention of paper. 376? Okay, paper gets invented 376 years after that press. Now for manual typesetting. 212? Okay, that gets invented 212 years after paper. Printing press time! Randomise again. 173? So we get a printing press 173 years after manual typesetting is introduced.
If you do that for all inventions on the tech tree... you have a timeline for development that accounts for a certain randomness. Certain inventions that are extemely likely to appeal to your culture can be tweaked to come earlier, but rule of thumb: for everyone you tweak to come earlier, you should tweak some other invention to be delayed. There are no societies of universally competent super-minds. Everyone misses things that seem obvious from hindsight.
That first one means: you can't suddenly develop a complex technology without having previously invented the earlier technologies needed to develop it. For instance, as is currently being discussed in another thread, to get to a printing press you need to invent both the types to print with, the press to use, and material to print on. All these arge going to be invented separately, for different purposes, and only once you have them do you get the ability to invent the printing press.
Which in turn brings us to the second factor: when that printing press gets invented is sort of random. The fact that it can be done does not mean it will be done. The classic example is the fact that the Incas had invented the wheel, but used it only to make toys for children. One would think the obvious applications would occur... but no. At least, not yet. Statistically, it will likely occur to someone at some point. It's just that the europeans got there before that point was reached.
Regarding the first factor, this TL is doing extremely well in my opinion. No blantanly impossible inventions are suddenly presented. It is carefully explained where innovations come from (as with the ship design), or the innovations in question were just plain possible at the time without precursor developments required. So bravo for that! Most people are a lot more sloppy about that.
But regarding the second factor, there is a great risk of just believing "oh, surely they would think of that?" -- while that's in fact not the case. Things seem obvious in hindsight, but are less clear in the moment. Basically, I do not believe for one second that anyone from light-soil Southern Europe would go about inventing the heavy plough. Does not happen. There's no need. That plough was needed to work the heavier clay soil in Northern Europe. And then plausibility comes in. When would such an invention be plausible? When someone, for some reason, wants to develop agriculture in northern areas. The League colonies can certainly help such developments along, but that would take time. Again: plausibility. Creativity is random. The more people are trying to use that land, with inferior, non-ideal ploughs... the more likely it becomes that one of them gets fed up and starts thinking about alternatives. But I don't see that happening at the current time in this TL. Northern Europe isn't developed and thickly settled enough for it. In a few hundred years? Yes. Count on it. But not yet.
This is pretty much how I treat this issue. Now, the ship development has a good reason to come early in exactly this scenario, so it's extremely plausible that it comes early. And the heavy plough can come earlier, but not this early (even though it is theoretically possible). Circumstances matter. And then there are many, many other ideas-- such as the stirrup. These, too, become available much earlier in this TL. That, too, is possible. The very practical, tech-oriented culture of Massalia makes this reasonable. But to keep it all realistic, there should be other developments where the randomness factor turns out differently. which could be developed right now, because there's no practical obstacle, but which wiull simply not come up for a few centuries... because of a lapse in creativity.
I would urge anyone going about ATL tech development to write out a tech tree. Then consider circumstance and motivation. Which developments are most likey for that culture, in those geographical circumstances? And which are least likely? For Massalia, developing new ships is extremely likely, and inventing the heavy plough (at this point) is extremely unlikely. So to balance it out, I'd say: give them the ships, but purposely push back the heavy plough a few centuries-- until demographic developments in northern Europe make it more plausible that such a thing would be invented there (where it is needed, unlike in southern Europe).
And things like the stirrup, that could just go either way? I suggest using a randomiser of some sort. For every new invention along every branch of your tech tree, have a computer decide on a truly random number between, say, 50 and 500 (there are websites that do this). The resulting number is the amount of years it takes for the new invention to come about, counting from the time of the previous invention on that branch. So a press gets invented (say an olive press)? Cool. Randomise a number for the invention of paper. 376? Okay, paper gets invented 376 years after that press. Now for manual typesetting. 212? Okay, that gets invented 212 years after paper. Printing press time! Randomise again. 173? So we get a printing press 173 years after manual typesetting is introduced.
If you do that for all inventions on the tech tree... you have a timeline for development that accounts for a certain randomness. Certain inventions that are extemely likely to appeal to your culture can be tweaked to come earlier, but rule of thumb: for everyone you tweak to come earlier, you should tweak some other invention to be delayed. There are no societies of universally competent super-minds. Everyone misses things that seem obvious from hindsight.
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