The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline
- Thread starter Sersor
- Start date
208 BC part1. The two battles of Cabelio.
208 BC part 1
Gaul theatre
Scipio tried to use diplomacy to pacify the Gallic tribes in the ex Allobroges lands but the local population was rather hostile. From there he marched South to Mesachora were he meet fierce resistance from the locals. After a small siege he sacked the city. From Mesachora he marched to Avenio were after a small battle with the local garrison he conquer the city.
Meanwhile in Massalia a new army of four tagmata under Pantaleon(a total of thirty thousands)was raised fast to march against Scipio. Another army of three tagmata (a total of twenty thousands) was raised by Palaioi company in Tolosa and an army of two tagmata (a total of twelve thousands) was raised by Dynatoi company in Emporion. The two armies meet North of Agathe and marched under Strategos Nikephoros to Arelate.
By the time that the companies army reached Arelate, Scipio and Pantaleon armies meet each other in Durance river near the city of Cabelio.
After reaching the North bank of the river, Scipio decided to rest for one day. The Romans collected boats and built rafts as they prepared to cross the river. Pantaleon army encamped in the South bank and awaited the Roman crossing attempt.
Scipio put Phillo in charge of a mobile column made up of infantry and cavalry and sent this force upriver(East) under cover of darkness to find another suitable crossing place. Phillo located a crossing about 20 km to the East of the Roman camp and crossed the river undetected with the aid of hastily built rafts. Some even crossed the river using inflated animal skins. This detachment then rested for a day. They moved south on the following night (the second night after leaving the main army) and arrived behind the League camp at dawn.
Phillo signalled Scipio by lighting a beacon and using smoke. A small Roman decoy force started to cross the river by small boats. The League, seeing the boats being launched, massed on the South riverbank to oppose the Romans. An artillery rain started to hit the Romans pretty hard. Phillo, timing his attack, sent part of his force to set the League camp on fire while the rest of his force fell on the rear of the League army and especially in the artillery of the League. Some of the Massaliotes then moved to defend the camp and the artillery. At the same time the main Roman army started to cross the river. The rafts carrying the “elite” cavalry units were furthest upstream,while boats carrying dismounted cavalry crossed below them, with three or four horses in tow, tied to their boats. These took the brunt of the river's current and the mobile infantry in canoes were placed below them. Some soldiers crossed the river by swimming. Scipio himself was among the first to cross, and the rest of the Roman army assembled on the North bank to cheer their comrades while they waited their turn to cross. Battle was soon joined on the South shore but the Romans despite heavy losses managed to establish a foothold. After an hour that Scipio’s group established a foothold, a Massaliot tagma ,of new recruits, that caught in the middle of Scipio’s and Phillo forces panicked and started to root. Soon after the whole League force started to root. It was a great victory for Scipio although a costly one. The League lost twenty thousands troops and Scipio around nine thousands. His army now was less than twenty six thousands.
***The map above is 208 BC and not 209 BC***
After this victory Scipio rushed to march against Massalia itself. The next day, the companies army caught up with him and blocked his way to the capital. The same night, Scipio tried to ambush the League army by approaching by stealth and setting fire to their camp, but the attempt failed due to league’s scouts reports. The next day the two armies meet in the battle field. Scipio led a pre-Marian Roman army quincunx, along with a body of stirrup/war saddle cavalry. Nikephoros led an army composed of tagmata, stirrup/war saddle heavy cavalry,stirrup/war saddle cavalry archers and artillery. Nikephoros deployed his troops facing northeast, while Scipio deployed his troops in front of the Massaliot League army facing southwest. Both armies put their infantry in the center and the cavalry on the flanks.The greatest concern for Scipio was the League artillery. He came up with an ingenious plan to deal with them. He put most of his cavalry on the flanks but kept a significant number in the center behind the infantry. When the battle started he ordered his center infantry, after the initial march, to move slightly back before the skirmish start and then split in the middle and charge in the left and the right leaving an open spot in the middle of the center. Then his cavalry charged the middle. This unorthodox move made the Massaliot league artillery confused and thus delayed to start shooting. The center of the League surprised and heavily pressed by the Roman cavalry was close to route. At that moment Nikephoros ordered his artillery to start shooting in that area, without caring about shooting even the League troops! This was the turning point of the battle. The roman cavalry in the center was almost annihilated. Meanwhile in the left flank Massaliot league cavalry rooted the Roman cavalry. Then the League cavalry attacked the Roman line from behind.This was the beginning of the end for the Roman army.The Roman infantry was encircled and annihilated. Still few thousands of Romans, including Scipio, managed to escape the slaughter. The League army lost seven thousands and the Romans more than fifteen thousands plus four thousands prisoners.
***The map above is 208 BC and not 209 BC***
Iberia theatre
The Dynatoi company expedition on the way to Hercules pillars took an open sea route to avoid any conflict with the Carthaginians near Gadir. After some time they reach the pillars and defeated the small Carthaginian fleet. With the pillars again secure they marched to liberate Lixus. In a battle near Lixus the won easily the Carthaginian army. The Trinovantes mercenaries made quite an impression in that battle.
Meanwhile In Iberia Hannibal marched to Malaca where after a small siege liberate it. From there he marched to the ex Carpetani lands where he was seen as a liberator. The Vettone,Carpetani and Celtiberian tribes rebelled and joined Hannibal army. With a massive army of fifty five thousands marched to liberate Carthago Nova.
South Italy theatre
In a battle near Croton, the Massaliot League,Megale Hellas and Spartan coalition army of forty thousands crashed the thirty thousands Roman army.The coalition lost only four thousands troops while Romans more than fourteen. During the battle, The Roman consul Flaccus charged directly against Spartan general Philopoemen with his spear. Bravely, Philopoemen didn't retreat, but waited with his lance, which he mortally thrust into Flaccus chest. By this action, Philopoemen’s fame increased across the coalition troops. After that major victory the Greek coalition planned to liberate the South Italy but under Philopoemens suggestion and huge support from the troops they decided to use Massaliot League, near by, major fleet and go direct for Rome! So After a few weeks of preparation an army of thirty five thousands sailed for Ostia(The port of Rome).
Gaul theatre
Scipio tried to use diplomacy to pacify the Gallic tribes in the ex Allobroges lands but the local population was rather hostile. From there he marched South to Mesachora were he meet fierce resistance from the locals. After a small siege he sacked the city. From Mesachora he marched to Avenio were after a small battle with the local garrison he conquer the city.
Meanwhile in Massalia a new army of four tagmata under Pantaleon(a total of thirty thousands)was raised fast to march against Scipio. Another army of three tagmata (a total of twenty thousands) was raised by Palaioi company in Tolosa and an army of two tagmata (a total of twelve thousands) was raised by Dynatoi company in Emporion. The two armies meet North of Agathe and marched under Strategos Nikephoros to Arelate.
By the time that the companies army reached Arelate, Scipio and Pantaleon armies meet each other in Durance river near the city of Cabelio.
After reaching the North bank of the river, Scipio decided to rest for one day. The Romans collected boats and built rafts as they prepared to cross the river. Pantaleon army encamped in the South bank and awaited the Roman crossing attempt.
Scipio put Phillo in charge of a mobile column made up of infantry and cavalry and sent this force upriver(East) under cover of darkness to find another suitable crossing place. Phillo located a crossing about 20 km to the East of the Roman camp and crossed the river undetected with the aid of hastily built rafts. Some even crossed the river using inflated animal skins. This detachment then rested for a day. They moved south on the following night (the second night after leaving the main army) and arrived behind the League camp at dawn.
Phillo signalled Scipio by lighting a beacon and using smoke. A small Roman decoy force started to cross the river by small boats. The League, seeing the boats being launched, massed on the South riverbank to oppose the Romans. An artillery rain started to hit the Romans pretty hard. Phillo, timing his attack, sent part of his force to set the League camp on fire while the rest of his force fell on the rear of the League army and especially in the artillery of the League. Some of the Massaliotes then moved to defend the camp and the artillery. At the same time the main Roman army started to cross the river. The rafts carrying the “elite” cavalry units were furthest upstream,while boats carrying dismounted cavalry crossed below them, with three or four horses in tow, tied to their boats. These took the brunt of the river's current and the mobile infantry in canoes were placed below them. Some soldiers crossed the river by swimming. Scipio himself was among the first to cross, and the rest of the Roman army assembled on the North bank to cheer their comrades while they waited their turn to cross. Battle was soon joined on the South shore but the Romans despite heavy losses managed to establish a foothold. After an hour that Scipio’s group established a foothold, a Massaliot tagma ,of new recruits, that caught in the middle of Scipio’s and Phillo forces panicked and started to root. Soon after the whole League force started to root. It was a great victory for Scipio although a costly one. The League lost twenty thousands troops and Scipio around nine thousands. His army now was less than twenty six thousands.
***The map above is 208 BC and not 209 BC***
After this victory Scipio rushed to march against Massalia itself. The next day, the companies army caught up with him and blocked his way to the capital. The same night, Scipio tried to ambush the League army by approaching by stealth and setting fire to their camp, but the attempt failed due to league’s scouts reports. The next day the two armies meet in the battle field. Scipio led a pre-Marian Roman army quincunx, along with a body of stirrup/war saddle cavalry. Nikephoros led an army composed of tagmata, stirrup/war saddle heavy cavalry,stirrup/war saddle cavalry archers and artillery. Nikephoros deployed his troops facing northeast, while Scipio deployed his troops in front of the Massaliot League army facing southwest. Both armies put their infantry in the center and the cavalry on the flanks.The greatest concern for Scipio was the League artillery. He came up with an ingenious plan to deal with them. He put most of his cavalry on the flanks but kept a significant number in the center behind the infantry. When the battle started he ordered his center infantry, after the initial march, to move slightly back before the skirmish start and then split in the middle and charge in the left and the right leaving an open spot in the middle of the center. Then his cavalry charged the middle. This unorthodox move made the Massaliot league artillery confused and thus delayed to start shooting. The center of the League surprised and heavily pressed by the Roman cavalry was close to route. At that moment Nikephoros ordered his artillery to start shooting in that area, without caring about shooting even the League troops! This was the turning point of the battle. The roman cavalry in the center was almost annihilated. Meanwhile in the left flank Massaliot league cavalry rooted the Roman cavalry. Then the League cavalry attacked the Roman line from behind.This was the beginning of the end for the Roman army.The Roman infantry was encircled and annihilated. Still few thousands of Romans, including Scipio, managed to escape the slaughter. The League army lost seven thousands and the Romans more than fifteen thousands plus four thousands prisoners.
***The map above is 208 BC and not 209 BC***
Iberia theatre
The Dynatoi company expedition on the way to Hercules pillars took an open sea route to avoid any conflict with the Carthaginians near Gadir. After some time they reach the pillars and defeated the small Carthaginian fleet. With the pillars again secure they marched to liberate Lixus. In a battle near Lixus the won easily the Carthaginian army. The Trinovantes mercenaries made quite an impression in that battle.
Meanwhile In Iberia Hannibal marched to Malaca where after a small siege liberate it. From there he marched to the ex Carpetani lands where he was seen as a liberator. The Vettone,Carpetani and Celtiberian tribes rebelled and joined Hannibal army. With a massive army of fifty five thousands marched to liberate Carthago Nova.
South Italy theatre
In a battle near Croton, the Massaliot League,Megale Hellas and Spartan coalition army of forty thousands crashed the thirty thousands Roman army.The coalition lost only four thousands troops while Romans more than fourteen. During the battle, The Roman consul Flaccus charged directly against Spartan general Philopoemen with his spear. Bravely, Philopoemen didn't retreat, but waited with his lance, which he mortally thrust into Flaccus chest. By this action, Philopoemen’s fame increased across the coalition troops. After that major victory the Greek coalition planned to liberate the South Italy but under Philopoemens suggestion and huge support from the troops they decided to use Massaliot League, near by, major fleet and go direct for Rome! So After a few weeks of preparation an army of thirty five thousands sailed for Ostia(The port of Rome).
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We might see a multiple-race. I think Massilia is/will concentrate on Scipio, and if history holds true the Romans will react by recalling as much of his force as they can to defend against the Southern incursion. I think he'll leave forces for delaying actions in the Alpine passes to preserve Roman gains in CAG, but the bulk will race to save Rome. I know in Otl he gambled on Spain/Africa with Hannibal in Italy, but that only developed after decades of status quo and the realization that beating him ther was likely not in the cards. Additionally Roman naval dominance allowed for a pretty quick change of mind of it got crucial. I don't think he'd have anywhere near the basis for such a gamble here...if Rome itself is in peril, and they recall him, he'll go.
Hannibal meanwhile is running up the Iberian coast, which is actually pretty navigable and at this point pretty lightly defended, and he's greased lighting on the move when he wants to be. While these are happening the Massilian expedition in Africa might try and hook through Mauretania and advance on Carthage. Their relianc on artillery ought to make them move relatively slowly, though we have not so far seen that demonstrated.* Could end up like a geo-political game of musical chairs. I'm unclear what forces if any are left behind in Africa to defend Carthage, which might be crucial...if they are substantial the Greek alliance may have missed a chance to catch Carthage on the horns of a dilemma and knock them out of the war completely and then turn on Rome en masse. There's the interesting possibility that Carthage will recall Hannibal when it's threatened himself, but unlike OTL he's not actually obligated to respond this time, with both the crown on his head and an alternate capital in his possession (all this assumes Carthago Nova falls pretty quickly, which given where the sympathies of it's residents lie, it ought to).
*A minor quibble on the degree to which field artillery is the deciding factor in so many Massilan battles...it really wasn't all that effective due to rate of fire. In spite of movie scenes, artillery in the ancient world was used like 95% in sieges or in prepared defensive engagements. Loading and aiming took so long that it was impractical to rely on them too heavily in the field. Possibly these are much much better...the crossbows are certainly a major gain. In addition, as mentioned, the heavy emphasis on field artillery ought to cost them in terms of mobility and really ought to restrict where they can fight. A commander like Hannibal or even Scipio would quickly learn to use terrain against them and/or make them abandon that wing.
Anyways, this continues to be fantastic.
Hannibal meanwhile is running up the Iberian coast, which is actually pretty navigable and at this point pretty lightly defended, and he's greased lighting on the move when he wants to be. While these are happening the Massilian expedition in Africa might try and hook through Mauretania and advance on Carthage. Their relianc on artillery ought to make them move relatively slowly, though we have not so far seen that demonstrated.* Could end up like a geo-political game of musical chairs. I'm unclear what forces if any are left behind in Africa to defend Carthage, which might be crucial...if they are substantial the Greek alliance may have missed a chance to catch Carthage on the horns of a dilemma and knock them out of the war completely and then turn on Rome en masse. There's the interesting possibility that Carthage will recall Hannibal when it's threatened himself, but unlike OTL he's not actually obligated to respond this time, with both the crown on his head and an alternate capital in his possession (all this assumes Carthago Nova falls pretty quickly, which given where the sympathies of it's residents lie, it ought to).
*A minor quibble on the degree to which field artillery is the deciding factor in so many Massilan battles...it really wasn't all that effective due to rate of fire. In spite of movie scenes, artillery in the ancient world was used like 95% in sieges or in prepared defensive engagements. Loading and aiming took so long that it was impractical to rely on them too heavily in the field. Possibly these are much much better...the crossbows are certainly a major gain. In addition, as mentioned, the heavy emphasis on field artillery ought to cost them in terms of mobility and really ought to restrict where they can fight. A commander like Hannibal or even Scipio would quickly learn to use terrain against them and/or make them abandon that wing.
Anyways, this continues to be fantastic.
I must say that I am somewhat displeased with artillery frequently being the critical factor of success for the Massaliots. It reminds me of the joke about how artillery in Total War Rome II is more accurate than modern day howitzers.
It's foreshadowing for when an artillery officer from Corsica becomes the leader of Massalia.
Valid points about the Artillery. But you are referring to OTL artillery capabilities. In this ATL Massaliot League is the pioneer of tech in the world. They have Universities and arsenals focused in artillery for more than seventy years. Some of the best engineers of OTL ancient times are there improving that field. Dionysus of Alexandreia investor of polybolos in OTL, was working in Massalia in this ATL. Archimedes was also in Massalia working on siege engines(he even made steam canons in OTL). Even the sect of epicureanism that affected heavily the League society was deeply in favour of tech development(as epicureanism was also in OTL). So in this ATL we have a society that is full in favour and support of tech revolution, filthy rich to attract the best minds of the era(including some of the best minds of all times) and with big experience in the battle fields in the use of them. So in this ATL i tried to make a plausible as possible WI scenario for better artillery.
About mobility you are right this was an issue about the artillery. But i have already mention that those weapons(same as OTL)were never carried mounted but had to be assembled every time, often using local wood. Only the metal fittings and the specialised equipment was carried, due to weight and space. The artillery pieces of massaliot army are rather small sized weapons operated by a average of three people and the common soldiers help to build the damn things. Especially in the heartlands there are big roads available for the league to move.
Last think i want to say is that its not like the league wins every time because of the artillery. I try to use it as plausible as possible but this is after all a ATL and maybe wank a little bit
Thank you very much. I am honoured!
I still have trouble believing that their artillery is as effective as artillery in the 17th century.The way you describe them sound like 16th-17th century artillery.Valid points about the Artillery. But you are referring to OTL artillery capabilities. In this ATL Massaliot League is the pioneer of tech in the world. They have Universities and arsenals focused in artillery for more than seventy years. Some of the best engineers of OTL ancient times are there improving that field. Dionysus of Alexandreia investor of polybolos was working in Massalia in this ATL. Archimedes was also in Massalia working on siege engines(he even made steam canons in OTL). Even the sect of epicureanism that affected heavily the League society was deeply in favour of tech development(as epicureanism was also in OTL). So in this ATL we have a society that is full in favour and support of tech revolution, filthy rich to attract the best minds of the era(including some of the best minds of all times) and with big experience in the battle fields in the use of them. So in this ATL i tried to make a plausible as possible WI scenario for better artillery.
About mobility you are right this was an issue about the artillery. But i have already mention that those weapons(same as OTL)were never carried mounted but had to be assembled every time, often using local wood. Only the metal fittings and the specialised equipment was carried, due to weight and space. The artillery pieces of massaliot army are rather small sized weapons operated by a average of three people and the common soldiers help to build the damn things. Especially in the heartlands there are big roads available for the league to move.
Last think i want to say is that its not like the league wins every time because of the artillery. I try to use it as plausible as possible but this is after all a ATL and maybe wank a little bit
Thank you very much. I am honoured!
Really? Well when i visualise this i don't see that. I see it more as an upgraded "archery" unit that its not that kills that many, but more of making the enemy unit root. Sorry about that, i'll try to visualise it more clear in the future.
The way how artillery annihilated the Roman cavalry in the center sounds like something from the 17th to 18th century.Until the 17th century,field artillery was little more than nuisance on the battlefield.
Yes i think they will concentrate more in Scipio and Rome.
Yes Hannibal has a nice battlefield to play with.
To be honest, the range of options for the artillery to have gone down is pretty varied. If they are uniform construction (lol, Late Classical Era replaceable parts), then assembly can be very rapid, and then have the weapons shoved in a cart to leg it.
But using Pitch? Or amphorae of oils? Totally plausible depending on the siege engine. Ceramic bolts that are basically filled with tar or oil aren't impractical or implausible. Fire one of those at an area with horses, or a barrage, and the spillage of the oil (followed by being ignited by a lit cloth) would terrify horses, causing dismounts, collision, and general chaos. For horses completely unfamiliar with the practice, with no training or exposure to this, they'd buck and run for the hills. Or in this case - the Alps.
It may not be cannon artillery, and may not have the range and the wall-shattering power, but area denial and morale damage is more than within the realms of practicality.
EDIT : On a side note - oil based weaponry is terrifying, and I'd love to see it lead to the development of Greek fire ITTL - not only because it is epic, but because being able to literally create a WALL OF FIRE between you and your enemies on a battlefield, in a manner that is in any way reliable, would basically allow you control over the battlefield.
But using Pitch? Or amphorae of oils? Totally plausible depending on the siege engine. Ceramic bolts that are basically filled with tar or oil aren't impractical or implausible. Fire one of those at an area with horses, or a barrage, and the spillage of the oil (followed by being ignited by a lit cloth) would terrify horses, causing dismounts, collision, and general chaos. For horses completely unfamiliar with the practice, with no training or exposure to this, they'd buck and run for the hills. Or in this case - the Alps.
It may not be cannon artillery, and may not have the range and the wall-shattering power, but area denial and morale damage is more than within the realms of practicality.
EDIT : On a side note - oil based weaponry is terrifying, and I'd love to see it lead to the development of Greek fire ITTL - not only because it is epic, but because being able to literally create a WALL OF FIRE between you and your enemies on a battlefield, in a manner that is in any way reliable, would basically allow you control over the battlefield.
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Imagine the battlefield. There is a heavy collision and ofc some chaos. Some Romans have even dismount and in general there is a lot o people blend in the area. Now at some point you have numerous rocks and arrows heading this way. The horses completely unfamiliar with the practice, with no training or exposure to this, will panic for sure causing big chaos to the Romans. Remember Nikephoros ordered his artillery to start shooting in that area, without caring about shooting even the League troops thus making it way more affective. Besides its the first time i said that the artillery almost annihilated an enemy unit. Its not like this happens every day.
This
Yes as i all ready mention the league has quite a big manpool. Especially in the heartlands where the biggest cities are(Massalia,Tolosa and Emporion). About the fleet, things are even better for the League. Only Carthage has some fleet. Rome basically doesn't have any. About Scipio/Lusitani i don't want to spoil the story.
208 BC part 2. The battle of Rome.
208 BC Part 2
italian theatre
The Massaliot League, Megale Hellas and Spartan coalition army of thirty five thousands landed in Ostia. The Romans surprised by this move, raised fast a new army of thirty thousands and marched to meet them.
The battle of Rome
When the coalition army arrived near Rome, they found the Roman army occupying strong positions on two nearby hills. The socii/allies and mercenaries were stationed on the right hill, while consul Crispinus held the left hill. On the small flat area between the hills, Crispinus deployed his cavalry and the remainder of his mercenaries. The strength of the Roman deployment prompted the coalition army to not launch an immediate assault against the Romans.
The Massaliotes placed their tagmata facing the Crispinus legions on the left hill, with the order to advance and take the heights. The coalition cavalry under the command of Alexander of Massalia, were arrayed in front of the enemy cavalry in the center. The Megale Hellas,Spartan troops in the right wing advanced against the Socii/allies on the right hill, but were attacked in the flank by enemy infantry that was initially arrayed with the cavalry. Without cover, the advancing allies were hard pressed by the Romans from the rear and the front, until Philopoemen, disregarding the orders, charged with his cavalry. This timely initiative saved the Greek troops on the right hill from annihilation and paved the way to victory, as the Spartans soon drove the Romans from the hill and then help the Greek cavalry in the flat ground in the center. The battle on the other hill lasted longer, but when the Spartans and Megale Hellas reinforcements from the other hill took the enemy in the flank, the Romans fought almost to the last man, until their Consul fled the field with a handful of companions. , out of thirty thousands Romans, only four thousands survived,
The defeat put the Romans in an immense state of panic, fearing for the very existence of their city. The Senate decided to resort to the traditional emergency measure of appointing a dictator, a temporary commander-in-chief who would unite military authority, which was normally divided between the two consuls, for six months. The person appointed as dictator was the ex consul Nero. Shortly after Rome was under siege.
Iberian theatre
By place:
Bosporus Kingdom
italian theatre
The Massaliot League, Megale Hellas and Spartan coalition army of thirty five thousands landed in Ostia. The Romans surprised by this move, raised fast a new army of thirty thousands and marched to meet them.
The battle of Rome
When the coalition army arrived near Rome, they found the Roman army occupying strong positions on two nearby hills. The socii/allies and mercenaries were stationed on the right hill, while consul Crispinus held the left hill. On the small flat area between the hills, Crispinus deployed his cavalry and the remainder of his mercenaries. The strength of the Roman deployment prompted the coalition army to not launch an immediate assault against the Romans.
The Massaliotes placed their tagmata facing the Crispinus legions on the left hill, with the order to advance and take the heights. The coalition cavalry under the command of Alexander of Massalia, were arrayed in front of the enemy cavalry in the center. The Megale Hellas,Spartan troops in the right wing advanced against the Socii/allies on the right hill, but were attacked in the flank by enemy infantry that was initially arrayed with the cavalry. Without cover, the advancing allies were hard pressed by the Romans from the rear and the front, until Philopoemen, disregarding the orders, charged with his cavalry. This timely initiative saved the Greek troops on the right hill from annihilation and paved the way to victory, as the Spartans soon drove the Romans from the hill and then help the Greek cavalry in the flat ground in the center. The battle on the other hill lasted longer, but when the Spartans and Megale Hellas reinforcements from the other hill took the enemy in the flank, the Romans fought almost to the last man, until their Consul fled the field with a handful of companions. , out of thirty thousands Romans, only four thousands survived,
The defeat put the Romans in an immense state of panic, fearing for the very existence of their city. The Senate decided to resort to the traditional emergency measure of appointing a dictator, a temporary commander-in-chief who would unite military authority, which was normally divided between the two consuls, for six months. The person appointed as dictator was the ex consul Nero. Shortly after Rome was under siege.
Iberian theatre
- After three months of siege Hannibal conquered Carthage Nova and camped there for the winter. Meanwhile Celtici and Lusitani tribes also rebelled from Massaliot league control and sacked Tagus.
- The Dynatoi expedition in Africa after securing the holdings there started to recruit Berber mercenaries.
- Scipio with an army of just a few thousands marched back to the North with Nikephoros right behind him.
By place:
Bosporus Kingdom
- Bosporus kingdom repelled a minor Scythian invasion.
All right, got distracted by some space threads but I'm caught up again!
I am pretty amazed that the Massaliotes were able to stop and ultimately defeat Scipio's Roman army. I've been thinking of this like Allies Versus Axis in WWII, with Rome and Carthage as the Axis. OTL from 1939 to 1942, the Germans and the Japanese were able to keep the British, Soviets and Americans on the back foot, having indeed wiped out France completely and shattering Dutch power in Indonesia and overrunning everything east of Burma and north of Australia no matter who held it. In mid-1942 it looked like the Axis might win. And if you asked Hitler or Tojo, they'd tell you that the key was boldness and decisiveness and preparation for a winning campaign. If their enemies had been like them they'd have been more suspicious and better prepared, but being liberal democracies they had neither the coordination nor the willpower for a fight they were losing. Bold strokes win all! It was only after some years of enduring these bold strokes and unaccountably not quitting that the British combined their own gradual transformation into a fighting machine with gaining the USA (pretty far behind in that same process) and Soviet Union (forced to accelerate it while being mauled) and the lines firmed up to define maximum Axis advances. And after that, the great miscalculation of all the myopic Axis leaders, that their foes could and would develop resolution when they needed, could muster up some boldness of their own, became masters of decisiveness as the need for focus took hold, and then enjoyed to the full their inherent but hitherto discounted advantages of deep material and broad personnel resources with superior logistics and made the ultimate and total defeat of the Axis inevitable.
Here too, I figure the Romans discount the sheer breadth and depth of Massaliote possessions and people giving it allegiance, because they discount its leadership as decadent, pleasure seeking, and while they know the tagmas are forces to be reckoned with, they underestimate both the resolve of the League to use them if their own heartlands are threatened and the ability of the League to muster competent forces.
So like Hitler planning his blitzkrieg strokes, the Romans would not strike at Massalia until they judged they had sufficient force at hand to overwhelm everything the League was known to have in the region, and anticipating that more tagmas would be sent from Tolosia and possibly even Iberia to reinforce the defense of Massalia, they too would prepare slower but larger forces in reserve to aid Scipio. If those forces were not to hand, I judge, they would not launch the attack half-cocked.
The goal I figured was to force the League defenders back into a siege of Massalia, and therefore after Scipio's quick transalpine strike in the northeast, which was suitable to engage the light forces present, more legions should have marched over that and other passes, so that as League forces mustered to turn on Scipio, they find yet more Romans coming at them from other directions; Scipio would feint at the city but sacrifice that apparent surge as a cover for regrouping with the reinforcements, making a really huge army--as huge as it took to hold the tagmas and auxiliaries the League could muster immediately at bay and force them into the siege. At that point too the Romans, having studied the problem, would have solutions to to take and sack the city.
And at that point they'd expect the wind to fall out of League sails, and the remnants to come to terms. Up until the fall of Massalia, I'd expect the Roman plan to go swimmingly; only after that when the League unaccountably refused to lie down and realize it was dead would things start to come unglued as forces calibrated to achieve the goal of destroying the city of Massalia find themselves sinking in a quicksand of millions of unexpected tiny cuts.
I expected it to be epic, terribly tragic for both sides but especially the League, as WWII was in the east--but like the Soviets, the League draws a line, turns the tide and then marches unstoppably toward Rome. Because these are classical times and because the League would be decimated, they might accept a truce once the Romans are back over the Alps, but from that day hence League and Rome are locked in an existential struggle that nearly bleeds the life out of both, but also from that first truce, indeed the first reversal of Roman advance, Rome's days are numbered as the League now will not rest until Rome is eliminated as a threat. Massalia gets rebuilt of course.
Which is one reason I figured the endgame between League and Rome would take not months, or even a couple years, but decades to complete.
What happened instead shows that either Roman intelligence of League capabilities in the region under informed Roman leaders horribly, or that Romans were much too overconfident the mere sight of a legion would paralyze Greco-Gaulish will and hence defenses. They appear to have underestimated not only the subtle factors but gross ones too, like how fast a tagma could be mustered and then marched across country.
Since they have been turned away from sacking the queen city, now League culture is in less immediate danger and its material forces are stronger, but by that same token they are perhaps not sufficiently impressed with the Roman threat.
In short it isn't like WWII at all, where the two sides formed mutual existential threats to the other and neither would make truce with the other but insisted on wiping it out completely. It may be a lot more like other periods in military history, where two sides fight and bleed one another but then settle for a truce leaving both still standing.
But I forget there are yet more lessons and more ways in which the situation differs from modern ones. In modern nations, there is no way that an amphibious descent on a port followed by direct advance on an enemy capital could work; it would be a salient quickly cut off, and there is no way such an expedition could have the punch necessary to take the capital. But in these ancient times, populations are lower, great empires are generally cobbled together with relatively small forces intimidating populations into client status, and such a move as Philopoemen's gamble can have dramatic effect, if it pays off. This is what the Romans figured they could do to Massalia after all, and that it would demoralize the League.
Now as I understand it, OTL Rome was rarely sacked, but happened a few times, and the Romans did not curl up and die nor lose all control of their clients--in the days of the Celtic raid to be sure, the Republic was on a different basis, much more local and I gather somewhat more equal in their treating of the more or less recently brought in line Latin League. And I believe some clients did take the opportunity to rebel. Certainly the next time Rome was threatened with destruction, with Hannibal scouring the peninsula OTL, many cities did rebel (not Massalia, but many of her neighbors in Liguria, Genua being the exception). Yet again the Romans did rally, so it is not so clear that if one cuts off the head of the snake it dies. (It is probably true that if an army spends years fighting its way up to the head of the snake, slicing its metaphorical body to little dissected bits, then destroying the "head" would be finally decisive. But this is just the sort of quagmire Phiopoemen hoped to avoid floundering in.
We remain in suspense, as I write, whether his gamble pays off or goes bust--even if it does and Rome is sacked, I am no more sure that is the end of Rome than I would be if Massalia fell to them it would end the League. Scipio has lost his army but he's still out there, coming back from the northwest; surely he has mustered what is left of his original army and augmented it with people he picks up in the Po valley, and will lead these, gathering others, to the relief of his city, or to avenge it should he get there too late. Other Roman leaders scattered over Italia are probably mustering forces (knowing they either need to sacrifice Rome's southern conquests yet again, or leave some trusty men behind to hold them down) to the relief of Rome too. If the city falls, they might converge to take revenge, or sit back and wait for the jackals to go away so they can begin rebuilding. Such a stroke will surely weaken Rome and delay her strength, but it can only harden Roman resolve to avenge it someday.
But perhaps with the fall of the city, enough subject peoples will rise up to absorb and scatter the rallying legions, and perhaps we are about to see the final fall of Rome and the abortion of Latin domination of European culture.
I imagine the likely thing is that Rome will be around for a few more innings. On the other hand they have an enemy as never before in the League.
I am pretty amazed that the Massaliotes were able to stop and ultimately defeat Scipio's Roman army. I've been thinking of this like Allies Versus Axis in WWII, with Rome and Carthage as the Axis. OTL from 1939 to 1942, the Germans and the Japanese were able to keep the British, Soviets and Americans on the back foot, having indeed wiped out France completely and shattering Dutch power in Indonesia and overrunning everything east of Burma and north of Australia no matter who held it. In mid-1942 it looked like the Axis might win. And if you asked Hitler or Tojo, they'd tell you that the key was boldness and decisiveness and preparation for a winning campaign. If their enemies had been like them they'd have been more suspicious and better prepared, but being liberal democracies they had neither the coordination nor the willpower for a fight they were losing. Bold strokes win all! It was only after some years of enduring these bold strokes and unaccountably not quitting that the British combined their own gradual transformation into a fighting machine with gaining the USA (pretty far behind in that same process) and Soviet Union (forced to accelerate it while being mauled) and the lines firmed up to define maximum Axis advances. And after that, the great miscalculation of all the myopic Axis leaders, that their foes could and would develop resolution when they needed, could muster up some boldness of their own, became masters of decisiveness as the need for focus took hold, and then enjoyed to the full their inherent but hitherto discounted advantages of deep material and broad personnel resources with superior logistics and made the ultimate and total defeat of the Axis inevitable.
Here too, I figure the Romans discount the sheer breadth and depth of Massaliote possessions and people giving it allegiance, because they discount its leadership as decadent, pleasure seeking, and while they know the tagmas are forces to be reckoned with, they underestimate both the resolve of the League to use them if their own heartlands are threatened and the ability of the League to muster competent forces.
So like Hitler planning his blitzkrieg strokes, the Romans would not strike at Massalia until they judged they had sufficient force at hand to overwhelm everything the League was known to have in the region, and anticipating that more tagmas would be sent from Tolosia and possibly even Iberia to reinforce the defense of Massalia, they too would prepare slower but larger forces in reserve to aid Scipio. If those forces were not to hand, I judge, they would not launch the attack half-cocked.
The goal I figured was to force the League defenders back into a siege of Massalia, and therefore after Scipio's quick transalpine strike in the northeast, which was suitable to engage the light forces present, more legions should have marched over that and other passes, so that as League forces mustered to turn on Scipio, they find yet more Romans coming at them from other directions; Scipio would feint at the city but sacrifice that apparent surge as a cover for regrouping with the reinforcements, making a really huge army--as huge as it took to hold the tagmas and auxiliaries the League could muster immediately at bay and force them into the siege. At that point too the Romans, having studied the problem, would have solutions to to take and sack the city.
And at that point they'd expect the wind to fall out of League sails, and the remnants to come to terms. Up until the fall of Massalia, I'd expect the Roman plan to go swimmingly; only after that when the League unaccountably refused to lie down and realize it was dead would things start to come unglued as forces calibrated to achieve the goal of destroying the city of Massalia find themselves sinking in a quicksand of millions of unexpected tiny cuts.
I expected it to be epic, terribly tragic for both sides but especially the League, as WWII was in the east--but like the Soviets, the League draws a line, turns the tide and then marches unstoppably toward Rome. Because these are classical times and because the League would be decimated, they might accept a truce once the Romans are back over the Alps, but from that day hence League and Rome are locked in an existential struggle that nearly bleeds the life out of both, but also from that first truce, indeed the first reversal of Roman advance, Rome's days are numbered as the League now will not rest until Rome is eliminated as a threat. Massalia gets rebuilt of course.
Which is one reason I figured the endgame between League and Rome would take not months, or even a couple years, but decades to complete.
What happened instead shows that either Roman intelligence of League capabilities in the region under informed Roman leaders horribly, or that Romans were much too overconfident the mere sight of a legion would paralyze Greco-Gaulish will and hence defenses. They appear to have underestimated not only the subtle factors but gross ones too, like how fast a tagma could be mustered and then marched across country.
Since they have been turned away from sacking the queen city, now League culture is in less immediate danger and its material forces are stronger, but by that same token they are perhaps not sufficiently impressed with the Roman threat.
In short it isn't like WWII at all, where the two sides formed mutual existential threats to the other and neither would make truce with the other but insisted on wiping it out completely. It may be a lot more like other periods in military history, where two sides fight and bleed one another but then settle for a truce leaving both still standing.
But I forget there are yet more lessons and more ways in which the situation differs from modern ones. In modern nations, there is no way that an amphibious descent on a port followed by direct advance on an enemy capital could work; it would be a salient quickly cut off, and there is no way such an expedition could have the punch necessary to take the capital. But in these ancient times, populations are lower, great empires are generally cobbled together with relatively small forces intimidating populations into client status, and such a move as Philopoemen's gamble can have dramatic effect, if it pays off. This is what the Romans figured they could do to Massalia after all, and that it would demoralize the League.
Now as I understand it, OTL Rome was rarely sacked, but happened a few times, and the Romans did not curl up and die nor lose all control of their clients--in the days of the Celtic raid to be sure, the Republic was on a different basis, much more local and I gather somewhat more equal in their treating of the more or less recently brought in line Latin League. And I believe some clients did take the opportunity to rebel. Certainly the next time Rome was threatened with destruction, with Hannibal scouring the peninsula OTL, many cities did rebel (not Massalia, but many of her neighbors in Liguria, Genua being the exception). Yet again the Romans did rally, so it is not so clear that if one cuts off the head of the snake it dies. (It is probably true that if an army spends years fighting its way up to the head of the snake, slicing its metaphorical body to little dissected bits, then destroying the "head" would be finally decisive. But this is just the sort of quagmire Phiopoemen hoped to avoid floundering in.
We remain in suspense, as I write, whether his gamble pays off or goes bust--even if it does and Rome is sacked, I am no more sure that is the end of Rome than I would be if Massalia fell to them it would end the League. Scipio has lost his army but he's still out there, coming back from the northwest; surely he has mustered what is left of his original army and augmented it with people he picks up in the Po valley, and will lead these, gathering others, to the relief of his city, or to avenge it should he get there too late. Other Roman leaders scattered over Italia are probably mustering forces (knowing they either need to sacrifice Rome's southern conquests yet again, or leave some trusty men behind to hold them down) to the relief of Rome too. If the city falls, they might converge to take revenge, or sit back and wait for the jackals to go away so they can begin rebuilding. Such a stroke will surely weaken Rome and delay her strength, but it can only harden Roman resolve to avenge it someday.
But perhaps with the fall of the city, enough subject peoples will rise up to absorb and scatter the rallying legions, and perhaps we are about to see the final fall of Rome and the abortion of Latin domination of European culture.
I imagine the likely thing is that Rome will be around for a few more innings. On the other hand they have an enemy as never before in the League.
Interesting update.
To get back to artillery; the existence of it will trigger countermeasures such as Scipio's attempt of getting at it. Other tactics will evolve to deal with it. Such as better drill to be able to attack from the move so you don't have to painstakingly draw up all of your army in the right formation all while your'e looking at the Massaliot's assembling their machinery. There could well be - actually they should have occured - some battles in which the opposition tried getting at the Massaliot's before the artillery was ready. This will possibly initially incur the attacker a thrashing but would also serve to remind the Massaliot's that artillery itself isn't THE vital arm - ITTL its has practially become so.
The artillery of the day would fire single projectiles making for small damage unless you hit somebody strait; of course some will try making explosive stuff like clay balls or containers that upon shattering will deliver smaller projectiles but the impact will probably make the interior projectiles proceed into the ground - there hasn't been many battles in the mountains and there wouldn't be much timbers up there to build the machines of.
If such should be catered for it would necessiate a logistic tail which would be difficult to maintain except when operating close to the coast or along a river.
Naval use of artillery would on the other had be very effective at short ranges as you have a big target to hit and grappling/fouling projectiles would soon see development to make for more effektiveness of shots at sails and rigging.
The problem with the artillery as already pointed to is the reload time certainly of the bigger machines. The smaller ones firing pilum or whatever will need a free field of fire which dictate their placement; they will need to be in the front line or elevated to be able to shoot down or be given a high trajectory but the crux of the matter here is that nobody had real ideas on ballistics till very late in history 16. century. Projectiles were thought to go in a strait line till they would lose momentum and fall strait down.
To get back to artillery; the existence of it will trigger countermeasures such as Scipio's attempt of getting at it. Other tactics will evolve to deal with it. Such as better drill to be able to attack from the move so you don't have to painstakingly draw up all of your army in the right formation all while your'e looking at the Massaliot's assembling their machinery. There could well be - actually they should have occured - some battles in which the opposition tried getting at the Massaliot's before the artillery was ready. This will possibly initially incur the attacker a thrashing but would also serve to remind the Massaliot's that artillery itself isn't THE vital arm - ITTL its has practially become so.
The artillery of the day would fire single projectiles making for small damage unless you hit somebody strait; of course some will try making explosive stuff like clay balls or containers that upon shattering will deliver smaller projectiles but the impact will probably make the interior projectiles proceed into the ground - there hasn't been many battles in the mountains and there wouldn't be much timbers up there to build the machines of.
If such should be catered for it would necessiate a logistic tail which would be difficult to maintain except when operating close to the coast or along a river.
Naval use of artillery would on the other had be very effective at short ranges as you have a big target to hit and grappling/fouling projectiles would soon see development to make for more effektiveness of shots at sails and rigging.
The problem with the artillery as already pointed to is the reload time certainly of the bigger machines. The smaller ones firing pilum or whatever will need a free field of fire which dictate their placement; they will need to be in the front line or elevated to be able to shoot down or be given a high trajectory but the crux of the matter here is that nobody had real ideas on ballistics till very late in history 16. century. Projectiles were thought to go in a strait line till they would lose momentum and fall strait down.
