The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline

[Skallagrim]

I actually wanted to raise the issue of the Hellenic colonies in East Africa ... but hurried two centuries :-(

Since the Ptolemaic Empire seems to be losing some territory in the north (Anatolia), I can certainly see them expanding south gradually, as they focus more and more on trade with the far east. Ptolemaic trade colonies along the African coast are not implausible at all. Likely, even.

 

[Sersor]

212 BC

Massaliot league fearing rebellions in Iberia and in Aedui lands decided to not help Megale Hellas League in their war against Rome. Nevertheless Dynatoi company helped "unofficial" Megale Hellas League by sending two thousands mercenaries from Lilybaeum.

By place:

Greece

• Epirus and Ptolemaic coalition agreed in a peace deal. Athens is now independent. Aeolian league is now a vassal of Sparta and the Aegean islands are now under Ptolemaic empire control.

Syria

• A new massive Ptolemaic army of seventy thousands troops marched from Alexandria to Syria. In a major battle against Seleucids army near Judea, Ptolemaic army repelled the attack but sustained heavy losses.

Italy/Sicily

• In a battle near Syracuse, Megale Hellas league army managed to repel the Roman army. Crucial factor for this victory was the death of Consul Maximus during the battle.
• In Italy one by one all greeks cities felt to Roman control.

 

[Falecius]

Massalia is losing an oppurtunity to engage Rome on two fronts, although as I pointed out above myself, their strategic situation is indeed problematic.

 

[Shevek23]

When has Massalia ever helped Megale Hellas by sending in an army and helping them stand their ground and repel Rome? All I can remember is they fought a delaying action that enabled them to evacuate one "kin" city, also settled by Phoecas, once. Otherwise they've from time to time been in alliances on the MH side, but their actions have been elsewhere than in Italy.

When the thread began they were as OTL Roman allies. I had an "uh-oh" moment when they simply failed to respond to a Roman call for help, and since then they've done enough to earn Roman ire--but not generally faced Rome head-on. The pattern continues, as far as I can see. Now the western League's relationship with Egypt is uncluttered by importunate Greeks in Italy! They are concentrating their hold on Sicily instead, which is crucial to their freedom to communicate with Egypt and valuable in itself.

By letting the Romans have Megale Hellas--again!--they do risk strengthening Rome, and subjugated Greeks in the coastal cities can augment Roman naval abilities if they come around to the Roman side without reservation. Also Rome taking the "toe" of Italy can be a threat to Sicily. Especially since the Carthaginians still have some kind of foothold on that island.

But so far, Massalia, while less submissive to Rome than OTL, still evades a direct challenge. They leave it to Rome to strike the first blow against them. Not the best policy, but good procrastination. Maybe someone else will take down Rome before the Romans get around to attacking Massalia? Or as some posters here suggest, they might hope Rome need never attack them at all. I think they will someday, maybe now someday soon, but leaders in Massalia might be forgiven for hoping otherwise.

I just hope others persuade the body to maintain a careful watch and be prepared for a sudden attack if it comes.

 

[Historyman 14]

Well, one good thing that comes from a stronger Rome/still becomes the Great is that it will become a whole lot more Hellenistic/Gaul due to Massalia growth and mixing Celtic culture and Gods to it over the years, if I remember and read the posts right.

Right?

 

[Sersor]

211 BC

The Romans while sieging Messana in the Northen-Eastern part of Sicily, they closed the strait of Messina with the help of the Carthaginian fleet. This action didn’t fit well with Massaliot League since some major trade routes were cut off. Massaliot League, under heavy pressure from Dynatoi company, decided to send a fleet of twenty ships ,together with emissaries, to deal with the situation and open the straits for the league traders. While this move was made to ensure the trade routes of the league, Carthaginians and Rome saw it as an aggression move. In a sudden attack the Carthaginian-Roman fleet destroyed five and captured another six League ships.

By place:

Greece

• In a naval battle near Rhodes, the combined Rhodes League-Pergamon-Bosporus Kingdom fleet managed to repel the bigger Ptolemaic Empire fleet.

Syria

• In another battle South of Antioch, Seleucid empire won a decisive victory against Ptolemaic Empire thus consolidating the area under Seleucids control.

 

[Skallagrim]

Here we have a major shift, in these last two installments. The Ptolemaic Empire is losing its northernmost territories, while at the same time Rome has taken southern Italy, and Rome and Carthage are moving in on Sicily. If Rome and Carthage succeed, the two (potentially powerful) allies, the Massalian League and the Ptolemaic Empire, will be divided. Rome and Carthage will force themselves in between al west-east trade across the sea, profiting from that. Additionally, all this may drive the Ptolemaic Empire to expand more to the south (aiming for Indian trade), while the Massalian League could decide to refocus on expansion in the west (western Europe and northwestern Africa).

And then there's still the Iberian question. Hannibal probably wants that back. If the Rome-Cathage alliance can isolate Massalia from allies in the east, the next step should probably be to force Massalia into a multi-front war. Essentially, Cathage would attack Iberia, using the minimized Barcid state as a staging zone, while Rome attacks Massalia more directly. Additionally, the Rome-Carthage alliance could try to make the Iberian insurgents into allies, promising them independence if they rise up against the League at that exact time as well.

It would be quite tricky for Massalia to fight off such an attack.

 

[darthfanta]

We are finally here.The league's gonna fight the Romans and the Carthaginians solo(kind of,the Magna Graecia Greeks don't really count). I am kind of rooting for the Romans and the Carthaginians.The Massaliots have been way too successful for their own good.

 

[Sersor]

We are finally here.The league's gonna fight the Romans and the Carthaginians solo(kind of,the Magna Graecia Greeks don't really count). I am kind of rooting for the Romans and the Carthaginians.The Massaliots have been way too successful for their own good.

It will be quite a derby!

 

[arctic warrior]

I've been catching up on this @Sersor quite interesting TL. Now seems like the Massaliot Legue have to find a way out of the situation. Bad time with the situation in Hispania in mind but would probably be the place for an attack on the Cartagenians to take out the Barca family estate. Try getting the weaker opposition member off your back before having to deal with the big guy who will probably be intent on conquering the south of Italy and Sicily.
Would be an idea to get talks going with the Cis-Alpine Celts for an ally.

 

[Falecius]

Well, the Massaliotes have absolute naval dominance, while the Roman grasp over the Italian peninsula is still very shaky. They could then strike a deadly blow if thy act fast and decisively - which means, however, taking huge risks. They could, in principle, field an army in army in Italy and keep it reinforced and supplied indefinitely thanks to their command of the seas and huge manpower, combined with allies in Italy -as long as that army avoids terminal defeat on the field, of course. So, sort of like the situation Hannibal had IOTL, but with the decisive advantage of having the seas open.
They could in principle land forces at the mouth of the Tiber and strangle Rome - even besiege it.
Cut the head of the snake, then take care of the rest.
To do this, however, they'l probably have to commit enough forces to be exposed in Iberia, Africa and Gaul - so it's risky.

 

[darthfanta]

I must say that as long as the league commands control of the sea,Carthaginian involvement would be quite limited.

 

[Falecius]

I must say that as long as the league commands control of the sea,Carthaginian involvement would be quite limited.

If they are allied with Numidia, as they seem to be, they might threaten the Massaliote holdings in Mauretania and, from there, potentially try reclaiming parts Spain in conjunction with likely renewed local revolt - still quite the mad dash, but that's Hannibal (and young Massinissa, who's almost equally deadly) we're talking about. I don't think this ends well for Carthage (the correlation of forces is highly skewed against it, even with Rome onside), but might provide a major headache to the League for a while.

 

[Sersor]

I've been catching up on this @Sersor quite interesting TL. Now seems like the Massaliot Legue have to find a way out of the situation. Bad time with the situation in Hispania in mind but would probably be the place for an attack on the Cartagenians to take out the Barca family estate. Try getting the weaker opposition member off your back before having to deal with the big guy who will probably be intent on conquering the south of Italy and Sicily.
Would be an idea to get talks going with the Cis-Alpine Celts for an ally.

Thank you for your kind words @arctic warrior! Nice suggestions. Indeed the situation in Iberia is fragile, so its quite possible for a two fronts war for Massalia.

 

[Sersor]

If they are allied with Numidia, as they seem to be, they might threaten the Massaliote holdings in Mauretania and, from there, potentially try reclaiming parts Spain in conjunction with likely renewed local revolt - still quite the mad dash, but that's Hannibal (and young Massinissa, who's almost equally deadly) we're talking about. I don't think this ends well for Carthage (the correlation of forces is highly skewed against it, even with Rome onside), but might provide a major headache to the League for a while.

Yes they are allied with Numibia and what you suggest is quite a plausible scenario. But as @darthfanta also said, with League controlling the sea Hannibal cant do lots of things.

 

[Falecius]

Yes they are allied with Numibia and what you suggest is quite a plausible scenario. But as @darthfanta also said, with League controlling the sea Hannibal cant do lots of things.

Seapower near-monopoly is the decisive card for the League. They can fight on several theatres at once while keeping their enemies disconncted and their own internal supply and communication lines safe - sort of like Rome did during the Second Punic War for the same reason.
This alone does not guarantee victory of course (it does nothing if things go south in Gaul for instance) but it is still a major advantage it that it makes fighting on multiple fronts viable.

 

[Sersor]

210 BC

The great Punic-Latin war

A major fleet of one hundred eighty ships( 60 heptares,90 quinqueremes and 30 venemeres) sailed for Sicily together with an army of four tagmata. In a naval battle in the straits of Messina the league fleet crushed the Carthaginian-Roman fleet(100 quinqueremes). Although the Romans and Carthaginians used a new invention the Corvus , the heavy artillery use of the eptares/venemeres and especially the use of crossbows against the corvus boarding attempts were no match for the Punic-Latin forces. In Sicily the combined forces of the League and Megale Hellas annihilated the remains of the roman army that was trapped in Sicily. Both Scipio’s(Africanous) father, Publius Scipio, and uncle, Gnaeus Cornelius Scipio Calvus, were killed in the battle.
At the election of a new proconsul for the command of the new army which the Romans resolved to send to march against Massalia itself, Scipio was the only man brave enough to ask for this position, no other candidates wanting the responsibility, considering it a death sentence.In spite of his youth (26 years old), his noble demeanour and enthusiastic language had made so great an impression that he was unanimously elected. The idea of marching against Massalia directly was part of a plan suggested by Hannibal. Hannibal would start first by marching to Iberia and at the right moment the Roman army would strike at Massalia.

• Hannibal assembled an army of thirty thousands( ten thousands Numibians mercenaries)and marched for the hercules pillars to conquer Massaliot League holdings there and cross to Iberia.

By place:

Cyprus/Asia minor

• in a naval battle near Cyprus the ptolemaic fleet won the Pergamon coalition fleet.

Syria

• In exchange for a peace, Ptolemy was forced to lose territories on the northern coast of Syria, including Seleucia Pieria and Antioch.

 

[Falecius]

snip

So it's Scipio crossing the Alps ITTL? Nice touch!

 

[Falecius]

It's a daring plan, worthy of Hannibal and Scipio.
Of course, it is also a plan where so much can go wrong...

 

[darthfanta]

Would be extremely difficult to pass the Alps in this timeline.If I'm correct,the Massaliots,if they aren't stupid(though I suppose they might just be because they allowed the Romans to take over the Cisalpine Gaul),all of the mountain passes would be heavily fortified.Unless the Romans found a hidden passage the Massaliots didn't know,just like what Wei did during it's invasion of Shu during the Three Kingdom's period in China,it would be fairly difficult to breach the Alpine defenses.