The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline
- Thread starter Sersor
- Start date
Controlling Sicily at this point basically gives the Ptolemaic Empire complete dominance over the eastern Med, and a huge amount of power over the waters of the Western Med. It can essentially be a giant naval fortress and trade outpost, only getting more valuable as the Massaliot League grows, which if there is ever a rivalry, the stronger Massaliot grows, the stronger the Ptolemaic Empire gets.
The western med itself - why both, too poor compared to their current territories. They would do better to take over the Diadochi territories.
Skallagrim
Banned
Really looking forward (like everyone here) to seeing how that particular team-up is going to work out.
But those maps and one particular event in the last update are perhaps even more interesting, although in a less dramatic way. I refer to the building of a Mouseion/university in Seleucia and they way a substantial number of scholars/engineers/mathematicians is invited to reside there. This is really telling: centers of learning are being used to actively develop technologies (or to copy them from others). This kind of state sponsoring for the development of (practical) innovations and inventions is truly radical. What this means is that a rapid spread of knowledge is promoted/encouraged in this TL.
Now i want to tie that into what we see on the map(s): various regions that are held as outposts by Massalia are already quite wealthy, compared to the hinterland and to their status in OTL. Since this whole state-sponsoring of universities is basically a Massalian idea (that has proved useful and is now being adopted by others) I'd expect Massalia to be a society that tends to spead its knowledge to newly-absorbed peoples. This is something that works for them, it helps to make the region more "civilized" (and more profitable) and also has benefits for the absorbed peoples in question (giving them a reason to want to stay in the League).
Basically I'd say this means that regions held by Massalia might just develop a bit more rapidly then we'd expect from OTL. Although I agree with everything else @Shevek23 replied to an earlier post of mine last Wednesday, I think it's too pessimistic to think that Massalia's holdings are comparable to "all of Nunavik with the interior of Borneo thrown in, plus Central Australia". Massalia has excellent naval abalities (superior to OTL's at the time), has a culture that embraces technological innovation and is well on its way to becoming very assimilative (as opposed to exclusive and chauvinistic, which often hampers potential development, since "foreign" innovations might be resisted).
I don't think that is is "optimistic to hope the great potential of the western lands will become apparent in less than a thousand years". I think a lot (not all, but a lot) of potential can already manifest in the next few centuries. If things are managed correctly. It can all go down the drain, of course. But to think that it would take a thousand years to really make a wealthy land out of these western regions... I don't really buy quite that. A trade empire like the League, especially with such a practical, progress-oriented culture, can achieve great things.
Unless it all gets wiped out by Hannibal and Scipio, of course.
But those maps and one particular event in the last update are perhaps even more interesting, although in a less dramatic way. I refer to the building of a Mouseion/university in Seleucia and they way a substantial number of scholars/engineers/mathematicians is invited to reside there. This is really telling: centers of learning are being used to actively develop technologies (or to copy them from others). This kind of state sponsoring for the development of (practical) innovations and inventions is truly radical. What this means is that a rapid spread of knowledge is promoted/encouraged in this TL.
Now i want to tie that into what we see on the map(s): various regions that are held as outposts by Massalia are already quite wealthy, compared to the hinterland and to their status in OTL. Since this whole state-sponsoring of universities is basically a Massalian idea (that has proved useful and is now being adopted by others) I'd expect Massalia to be a society that tends to spead its knowledge to newly-absorbed peoples. This is something that works for them, it helps to make the region more "civilized" (and more profitable) and also has benefits for the absorbed peoples in question (giving them a reason to want to stay in the League).
Basically I'd say this means that regions held by Massalia might just develop a bit more rapidly then we'd expect from OTL. Although I agree with everything else @Shevek23 replied to an earlier post of mine last Wednesday, I think it's too pessimistic to think that Massalia's holdings are comparable to "all of Nunavik with the interior of Borneo thrown in, plus Central Australia". Massalia has excellent naval abalities (superior to OTL's at the time), has a culture that embraces technological innovation and is well on its way to becoming very assimilative (as opposed to exclusive and chauvinistic, which often hampers potential development, since "foreign" innovations might be resisted).
I don't think that is is "optimistic to hope the great potential of the western lands will become apparent in less than a thousand years". I think a lot (not all, but a lot) of potential can already manifest in the next few centuries. If things are managed correctly. It can all go down the drain, of course. But to think that it would take a thousand years to really make a wealthy land out of these western regions... I don't really buy quite that. A trade empire like the League, especially with such a practical, progress-oriented culture, can achieve great things.
Unless it all gets wiped out by Hannibal and Scipio, of course.
Yes a rapid spread of knowledge is promoted/encouraged in this TL! The Mouseion/university is becoming a trend in this more Hellenistic than OTL world. In OTL Ptolemaic Egypt builded the first ( same in this ATL/Masalia builded the second,Pantikapeon third and now Seleucia) and then Pergamon builded one also around 200-180 BC. In general this ATL focus in the "what if the Hellenistic states were dominant(more stable/no so many diadochi wars) instead of a Roman Empire"
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Yes its exactly like that. Massalia is the world leader in tech. One major aspect of this is the introduction of major agricultural techs in west and north Europe hundreds years before than in OTL.( This techs were available in the time in the OTL but mostly in Ptolemaic Egypt. Romans introduce this techs to west Europe in large scale at least couple hundred years later)
Its also as you said, a practical and progress-oriented culture.
Skallagrim
Banned
We get the best bits of the Hellenistic age, without constant warfare messing things up, and (thus far!) without the Romans steamrollering all over the fractured polities. This is a very interesting premise, and made particularly engaging by having a focus on Massalia and its trade-based empire. In regards to Rome, I keep wondering what all this will do to their culture. I know the following is a broad generalization... but I've always had the impression that Rome was a very different place before it annexed the Hellenic world. Initially, more Romans looked down on the "effeminate" Greeks, but later they saw how rich Greek culture was, and adopted incredibly much of it. That changed Rome forever. That... hasn't happened here. Rome is still as it was before: a very succesful but still quite local culture with a rather militaristic bent... and basically a bunch of uncouth barbarians when viewed from a Greek perspective!
(Not entirely untrue, because Romen conquest did disrupt Hellenistic culture to such an extent that certain scientific knowledge was lost at the time... I recall and article referencing some Roman commentaries on Ptolemaic sources that really indicated that the Romans did not understand some of the math that the Ptolemaics had used centuries earlier! In this TL, no such disruption is to be expected... one hopes.)
Anyway, it will be very interesting to see what Rome becomes in this TL.
This.
And this.
In general, i think Rome at this point can't turn this around and repeat OTL glory.
Ps: ofc Hannibal and Scipio are a deadly duo.
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Upvoteanthology
Donor
Would you mind if I ever did a cover map of this TL? I love reading it, and I'd give you credit. 
Well, for starters, I think the Ptolemies would focus from now on not on the Eastern Med., but in the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean, which is way more profitable than the Mediterranean. I am quite sure they would start to see projects like reuniting Alexander's Empire or controlling the Mediterranean as a waste of time and resources, while there is an entire ocean full of Hellenizable people! They would at some date change their capital to somewhere more south so they could more easily control the area, they would also seel their Sicilian possessions, maybe also Crete, to Megale Hellas or Massalia (preferably the former) so that they could focus better on the Red Sea trade. Also the Seleucids could kick the Ptolemaic ass and reconquer the Levant down to Sinai, which would become a buffer zone, making the Ptolemaic focus shift even more to the South.
As of Hannibal and Scipio, most badass duo ever, I think they would be hampered by Rome's Aristocracy (of wich Scipio was part) because of Hannibal's populist views which were similar or equal to those of the populares party which was the nemesis of Rome's aristocracy, so to say. I think they would: a) start a revolution and make a true democracy in Rome, mantaining it as a regional power, or more pro<bable b) lead Roman exiles to some far north area and settle there eventually romanizing and making an empire/democracy in that area, mixing Roman ideals with local values and culture. Like they settle Ireland or Pomerania or Iceland (wouldnt that be awesome!)
As of Hannibal and Scipio, most badass duo ever, I think they would be hampered by Rome's Aristocracy (of wich Scipio was part) because of Hannibal's populist views which were similar or equal to those of the populares party which was the nemesis of Rome's aristocracy, so to say. I think they would: a) start a revolution and make a true democracy in Rome, mantaining it as a regional power, or more pro<bable b) lead Roman exiles to some far north area and settle there eventually romanizing and making an empire/democracy in that area, mixing Roman ideals with local values and culture. Like they settle Ireland or Pomerania or Iceland (wouldnt that be awesome!)
I will have to disagree - they can expand more easily (for the sake of long term stability) into the other Diadochi states - lots of Greeks already there - plus, owning Greece certainly give them the last trophy to claim to be the rightful leaders of the Greek World. Beyond that, I think you're right, they will focus more on the Indian Ocean - but the only place they'll move their capital to is closer to the Canal of the Pharaohs. Working and expanding on that canal, and building a perfect new capital there will be ideal for their European and Oceanic Empires. Plus, the Oceanic Empire - is likely to be first a series of trade operations. It isn't like they are that familiar with India.
Although @Sersor I understand that there are Nomarchs for the Ptolemaic Empire - if they go much further (say around the horn, or overseas), are we going to see regionalisation there?
I would love to see your map!Would you mind if I ever did a cover map of this TL? I love reading it, and I'd give you credit.
Besides a couple of polis/cities on the South red sea, under direct control,Ptolemy appointed a couple of vassal kings. So yea if they expand further, we are going to see regionalisation and vassals. Another interesting thing about Ptolemaic Empire, is the new "semi cleruchs" rights to native Egyptians thus settling them to various parts of the empire(for start South Red sea)
219 BC. 1 st Iberian revolt.
219 BC
1st Iberian revolt
The Celtiberi tribes moved toward an open rebellion. In a sudden attack they defeated the local tagma and sacked Edessa. An army of three tagmata under strategos Patroclus marched from Tolosa to deal with the rebellion. For the rest of the year the tactics of the Celtiberi were of guerrilla warfare, avoiding direct attacks on the League forces because of their inferior numbers. Their better knowledge of the difficult and mountainous terrain allowed them to conduct quick surprise strikes, with ambushes followed by quick retreats, causing great damage to the League supply lines.
By Place
Ptolemaic Empire
After the native revolt, Ptolemy become even more liberal towards Egyptian religion than his predecessors. He supported, promoted, and contributed towards various cults, particularly those of the Apis and Mnevis Bulls.The Egyptian priesthood praise him and his wife as "Benefactor Gods" for this religious support, as well as for maintaining peace by strong national security, and for good governance.
Bosporus Kingdom
1st Iberian revolt
The Celtiberi tribes moved toward an open rebellion. In a sudden attack they defeated the local tagma and sacked Edessa. An army of three tagmata under strategos Patroclus marched from Tolosa to deal with the rebellion. For the rest of the year the tactics of the Celtiberi were of guerrilla warfare, avoiding direct attacks on the League forces because of their inferior numbers. Their better knowledge of the difficult and mountainous terrain allowed them to conduct quick surprise strikes, with ambushes followed by quick retreats, causing great damage to the League supply lines.
By Place
Ptolemaic Empire
After the native revolt, Ptolemy become even more liberal towards Egyptian religion than his predecessors. He supported, promoted, and contributed towards various cults, particularly those of the Apis and Mnevis Bulls.The Egyptian priesthood praise him and his wife as "Benefactor Gods" for this religious support, as well as for maintaining peace by strong national security, and for good governance.
Bosporus Kingdom
- A Scythian invasion is repelled by the Bosporus army with the help of Pergamon Reinforcements and Scythian mercenaries.
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Hey Sersor! Did you know that there was no Celtiberi tribe? The Celtiberi were a people, divided in tribes, the strongest of with were the Arevaci. THEY could have started the rebellion and gathered support for it, but no single people could revolt in that way.
Also,
As if "lack of own's culture" has ever stopped any conqueror throught History (Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Caesar, Every British Monarch!(even the many incompetent ones), Timur, Temujin, Babur, Charles V, you name them). It would even have been more of an appeal factor that a deterrence, because of the wish to civilize the barbarians!
We are starting to see:
a) the rise of the Bosphoran Empire, based on the Scythian Steppes and the Northern Black Sea (the Pontus Euxinos);
b) The Rise of the Pergamese (Attalid) Empire, maybe following more integration of the native Anatolian population;
c) the Scythianization of the Bosphoran Greeks (slow but sure, because of/causing "a)");
d) the rise of Ptolemaic Egypt (or Egypto-Greek Red Sea/Indian Ocean Empire(instead of Ptolemaic Kingdom, because of the rising influence of the native Egyptian culture, eventually maybe some Arabian Semitic influence too);
e) the birth (or rise of the notoriety/importance of) "modern" (as with non-Ancient, more efficient, more cost-effective, more regulated) bureaucracy;
f) the Persian-/Iranianization of the Seleucids OR the further hellenization of the "East". I say that the Seleucids will reconquer their traditional power base of Syria, maybe the south of Anatolia too, and
1) Try to reunite the Empire of Alexander;
2) Persianize/Iranianize, with this I mean that they will fully persianizing and becoming the next Persian Empire, successors of the Achaemenids.
3) Create a distinct empire (from Alexander's or Cyrus's empires), fully greek, fully Persian or with a Persiano-Hellenic culture.
g) The Massaliot League, after maybe defeating the Celtiberian (maybe Arevaci-led) rebellion, will have to do the same they did with their gaulish populace to their Iberian populace, because it is impossible (or very unlikely) that a Helleno-Gallic culture would domain and integrate such a people (or multitude of peoples) as the Iberians, so we may see the ris eof a Hellenic-Iberian-Gallic culture in the future.
h) The democratic "experiment" of the Massaliot League won't last very much longer, similarly to OTL Rome after its incredible expansion. If I had to guess, the Palaioi Company will try and defend the aristocrat's superiority against the Dynatoi attempts at more democratization and futher reforms. I foresee a civil war in the future, maybe following the rise and death of a charismatic and genial dynatoi, a geniune leader of the people (similar to Hannibal or Caesar, but not as absolute-power-inclined as they were, or as Caesar was), with a fantastic military career, giving his life to make the League better; after the civil war, a new leader should rise and lead the Massaliot "League" into an age of prosperity, stability and peace.
i) Hannibal helps is student Scipio rise in Roman ranks and take the power from the aristocracy OR beucase of the aristocracy's machinations, they flee and establish a democracy/empire elsewhere.
j) Bactria may grow even larger. I think that they will lose a sizable part of their western territory to Antiochus III, starting to focus more on the opportunities for expansion in India and Xinjiang, probably the loss of western territory will follow the death of the current great ruler and the empire will be split into a more Iranian-Saka-Hellenic part in the north and a more Hellenic-Indian part in the south. Maybe we see a surviving greek kingdom in India after all.
k) Carthage will 1) Embrace African influences and expand carthaginian citizenship to every african citizen in the Republic, they will expand into the neighboring african kingdoms and turn into a greater regional power or 2) The city will be trambled beneath the Numidians' hooves! Massinissa may conquer the kingdom, give him somewhat of a backstory, like an early Ariminius (or Atilla in that regard) who was educated in carthaginian ways but despises them and wants to see his people united and destroy Carthage. Maybe we see the rise of Numidia!
l) India! Dasharata may try harder to reunite his father's empire, he can fail in regards to the Greeks but may suceed in regards to the other indians. Or Samprati, in that regard, may suceed too. But I doubt they will exoand further into southern India.
m) I wonder what is happening in the REST of the world.
I have many more ideas but I won't be able to help in the next week because of reasons. It was quite a big post to compensate for that. I hope that this TL continues in its path to greatness. Cheers to Sersor for his magnificient work!
Also,
As if "lack of own's culture" has ever stopped any conqueror throught History (Alexander the Great, Napoleon, Caesar, Every British Monarch!(even the many incompetent ones), Timur, Temujin, Babur, Charles V, you name them). It would even have been more of an appeal factor that a deterrence, because of the wish to civilize the barbarians!
We are starting to see:
a) the rise of the Bosphoran Empire, based on the Scythian Steppes and the Northern Black Sea (the Pontus Euxinos);
b) The Rise of the Pergamese (Attalid) Empire, maybe following more integration of the native Anatolian population;
c) the Scythianization of the Bosphoran Greeks (slow but sure, because of/causing "a)");
d) the rise of Ptolemaic Egypt (or Egypto-Greek Red Sea/Indian Ocean Empire(instead of Ptolemaic Kingdom, because of the rising influence of the native Egyptian culture, eventually maybe some Arabian Semitic influence too);
e) the birth (or rise of the notoriety/importance of) "modern" (as with non-Ancient, more efficient, more cost-effective, more regulated) bureaucracy;
f) the Persian-/Iranianization of the Seleucids OR the further hellenization of the "East". I say that the Seleucids will reconquer their traditional power base of Syria, maybe the south of Anatolia too, and
1) Try to reunite the Empire of Alexander;
2) Persianize/Iranianize, with this I mean that they will fully persianizing and becoming the next Persian Empire, successors of the Achaemenids.
3) Create a distinct empire (from Alexander's or Cyrus's empires), fully greek, fully Persian or with a Persiano-Hellenic culture.
g) The Massaliot League, after maybe defeating the Celtiberian (maybe Arevaci-led) rebellion, will have to do the same they did with their gaulish populace to their Iberian populace, because it is impossible (or very unlikely) that a Helleno-Gallic culture would domain and integrate such a people (or multitude of peoples) as the Iberians, so we may see the ris eof a Hellenic-Iberian-Gallic culture in the future.
h) The democratic "experiment" of the Massaliot League won't last very much longer, similarly to OTL Rome after its incredible expansion. If I had to guess, the Palaioi Company will try and defend the aristocrat's superiority against the Dynatoi attempts at more democratization and futher reforms. I foresee a civil war in the future, maybe following the rise and death of a charismatic and genial dynatoi, a geniune leader of the people (similar to Hannibal or Caesar, but not as absolute-power-inclined as they were, or as Caesar was), with a fantastic military career, giving his life to make the League better; after the civil war, a new leader should rise and lead the Massaliot "League" into an age of prosperity, stability and peace.
i) Hannibal helps is student Scipio rise in Roman ranks and take the power from the aristocracy OR beucase of the aristocracy's machinations, they flee and establish a democracy/empire elsewhere.
j) Bactria may grow even larger. I think that they will lose a sizable part of their western territory to Antiochus III, starting to focus more on the opportunities for expansion in India and Xinjiang, probably the loss of western territory will follow the death of the current great ruler and the empire will be split into a more Iranian-Saka-Hellenic part in the north and a more Hellenic-Indian part in the south. Maybe we see a surviving greek kingdom in India after all.
k) Carthage will 1) Embrace African influences and expand carthaginian citizenship to every african citizen in the Republic, they will expand into the neighboring african kingdoms and turn into a greater regional power or 2) The city will be trambled beneath the Numidians' hooves! Massinissa may conquer the kingdom, give him somewhat of a backstory, like an early Ariminius (or Atilla in that regard) who was educated in carthaginian ways but despises them and wants to see his people united and destroy Carthage. Maybe we see the rise of Numidia!
l) India! Dasharata may try harder to reunite his father's empire, he can fail in regards to the Greeks but may suceed in regards to the other indians. Or Samprati, in that regard, may suceed too. But I doubt they will exoand further into southern India.
m) I wonder what is happening in the REST of the world.
I have many more ideas but I won't be able to help in the next week because of reasons. It was quite a big post to compensate for that. I hope that this TL continues in its path to greatness. Cheers to Sersor for his magnificient work!
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Nice suggestions @Aishio !
Yes i know about the Arevaci. We basically say the same thing. I just use the term Celtiberi tribes instead of writing about the tribes within. So yes Arevaci was their main tribe so we can say that the rebellion was under their lead.
Yes i know about the Arevaci. We basically say the same thing. I just use the term Celtiberi tribes instead of writing about the tribes within. So yes Arevaci was their main tribe so we can say that the rebellion was under their lead.
Might the Baracids have intervened to promote unity among the Celtiberis, and promoted the idea that they all formed one people and tribe, so that rebel leaders tend to emphasize commonality among them in place of the older tribes?
In short could "the Celtiberi tribe" be something butterflied into existence?
In short could "the Celtiberi tribe" be something butterflied into existence?
You don't.
I don't think using the term Celtiberi tribe is wrong.
Here is some data where my research was based:
The Celtiberians were Celtic-speaking people of the Iberian Peninsula in the final centuries BC. These tribes spoke the Celtiberian language.[1][2] Extant tribal names include the Arevaci, Belli, Titti, Lusones, and Berones. Cassius Dio appears to imply that the Ebro river forms a demarcation between Celtiberians and other tribes.[3]
and here is a 200 BC map:
Ethnology of the Iberian Peninsula c. 200 BC, based on the map by Portuguese archeologist Luís Fraga.
