thats fine, a general update every 25-50 yearsheh i was just looking on Mauryan empire historyBut my knowledge is rather minimal i am afraid.
The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline
- Thread starter Sersor
- Start date
There now, you see, this is the sort of thing I've been worrying about!
It is plausible enough that the Massaliot League is essentially a Hellenic thing, perceived as such by all, with the Gauls within its sphere an underclass. The TL can go forward on that basis.
BUT if it does, the League is currently facing a serious check. The population figures Sersor gives below emphasize my point in that case; within ML territory, its core rather than its vast trade-based sphere of influence in the north, the Greeks are outnumbered. If expansion of ML is equated to Greek superiority, increasing levels of resistance of further Gauls to conquest can be expected, reinforced by the danger of rebellion of the Gaulish majority within the ML core. All Massaliot assets might suddenly turn to liabilities--a rebellion might seize Tolosia and its wealth, cut off the League core from the Atlantic, destabilize their recent seizure of salients in Iberia, etc. Bear in mind that every Massliote campaign we've heard of so far involves large contingents of Gaulish troops! What if these are suddenly on the wrong side?
Then they are exposed to vengeful attacks from Rome and the Carthaginians--even with the latter in two hostile camps, they might pull together if they can see opportunities to savage the League while it is on the ropes.
If this were the case, I'd have expected serious checks much earlier in fact. It would be likely for instance that disgruntled Gaulish soldiers from the League, with experience in Massaliot operations, would flee piecemeal northward and spread knowledge of Massaliot technique to Gauls in the north; then the alliance of Diviciacix would be expected to be more effective, following up on their initial victory to more devastating effect, avoiding being lured to their destruction on Hermolaos's terms. This war might be won by ML in the long run, maybe, but it would be a much later and more costly victory that leaves them vulnerable to their Punic, Latin, and Hellenistic rivals in the south.
The mere fact of trade with the north is helping to spread the most advanced Hellenic technique among the Gauls and other northern European peoples. This is part of what happened to Rome OTL after all.
But--suppose instead the League is not all Greek, that it is instead a hybridization of Greek and Gaulish cultures--as the large numbers of Gauls within it (unless we suppose these are mostly slaves or serfs) suggests. Then the situation is very different. If the Gauls of the League are socially and politically on a rough par with the Greeks, then what the Gauls to the north face is not conquest as a people, but the question of whether their particular tribe is in or out. The patchwork nature of divided Gaulish (and Celtic, and northern tribal generally) society is what gives the League its opportunity to expand. As their influence moves north, there are losers among the natives--but also winners, peoples in effect inducted into League society who develop a stake in it.
This vision of mine of what the League might be is founded in part on romanticism, I admit. It is also less sweet than I might be implying or wishing--huge numbers of people are after all losers, and so even if the society is a hybridized fusion, centers of Gaulish resentment must surely still exist. But if these are offset by a majority of other Gauls who do think of the League as theirs and being for their benefit, they can be held more in check. And the opportunities of expansion by cooptation remain open in the north. Perhaps even among people who aren't Gaulish, or even Celtic, such as the Germanics of the Baltic (or other Baltic peoples); if the society has the generalized idea that ethnicity is not of the essence, mutual alliance for mutual benefit is, there is little reason it can't jump the ethnic "barriers" that otherwise might check it.
As I've gone on about at greater length before and see little reason to repeat except in essence here, it has been ambiguous to me which choice Sersor has made on this crucial point, mainly because of lack of clear evidence that people other than Greeks are involved at the highest levels. There have been a few tokens since, but it remains ambiguous.
But I have been interpreting the very vastness of Massaliote accomplishment, the large swathes of territory being incorporated without apparent fear they have bitten off more than they can chew in terms of governing underclasses, as evidence that League society is a League not only of Greek city-states, but also Gaulish territories that do participate. I choose to believe that some of the unique developments of military technique that help strengthen League armies are in fact Gaulish ideas, that officers and even commanding generals are often of primarily Gaulish identity, that Gauls participate in the Museaon and that such centers of learning exist in Gaulish towns and rising centers that are mixed places where both major ethnicities exist, that intermarriages are taking place at high and low levels of society and a deeply fused streak is developing that is somewhat at home in both worlds (and probably, somewhat uncomfortable in both too).
But if this were all true, I would expect more visible trouble that has not been shown to arise between immigrant "pure" Hellenes and the mixed-up lot who are the heart and genius of the League.
Still it is easier for me to believe these troubles arose but were resolved or anyway papered over in an expanding League, and therefore have not been mentioned, and that we are reading a history that tends to understate the Gaulish contributions, than I can believe that a league that is chauvinistically Hellenic has gotten this far without some nasty reverses.
So much easier to believe if the Gauls are mostly not subjects but roughly equal to the Hellenes! Some Gauls clearly are of lower and oppressed orders--all these tens of thousands taken as slaves wind up somewhere, and even if many of them are sold elsewhere in the Mediterranean world (slaves were indeed major exports of non-Mediterranean Europe for over a thousand years past the date we have reached thus far in the ATL, OTL) some of them will be worked right there in the League. But if other Gauls are among the owners, the situation seems much more stable within the League!
I'd be on much more solid ground if this were not a list only of Greek cities, but also included some Gaulish towns as well. One possible bypass is that perhaps Gaulish culture, even adopting many Hellenic elements as these high-class Gauls I believe in surely would, are not as "civic" minded as Romans or Greeks, and tend to spread out more over the land, maintaining smaller towns for a given total population as trade, craft, and political centers.
Even so, some Gaulish towns ought to have grown under Greek influence, or because of circumstantial factors that favor them. And properly speaking, then, a League listing of its great centers would intersperse, or list separately, major allied Gaulish districts. Making them all Greek city-states certainly supports the idea that it is a Hellenistic thing exclusively, and therefore should be running into serious political trouble right about now, if not before.
Naucratia has always seemed problematic to me. I initially assumed it would in fact be Bordeaux--ancient Burdigala that is--or anyway in the Garrone bay. You've located Naucratia on the bay of Aracachon instead. I've been looking at Google Maps, trying to find the most convenient passage from the Garrone river, which is clearly the pathway most desired from Tolosa to the Atlantic, to that bay, and I conclude that the topography of the region routes all the waters flowing into it, or even to the Adour that reaches the sea to the south at modern Bayonne, run parallel. There is no convenient portage. To reach the bay of Aracachon from Tolosa would involve either building a road and expensively hauling goods overland many kilometers, or even more improbably building a canal (and I think the topography is dead against that) only to put them onto a tiny tributary of L'Eyre river, which is itself just a small stream, and so at last set up a colony on a bay that in OTL has never been a major port. For the obvious reason that Burdigala at the mouth of the Garrone is vastly superior!
At the time way upthread your answer was that the Biturges of Burdigala were allies of the League, and therefore would not welcome being overwhelmed and swamped by thousands of Greek immigrants. But Naucratia on the bay of Aracachon is pretty useless, unless its purpose is to bypass and thus in the long run overwhelm Burdigala. In other words, the plan would be to betray their "ally!"
Whereas it would appear from the latest Gallic War installment that the neighbors of the coastal Biturges were in fact by the time of that war now allied. Burdigala is not mentioned at all.
Meanwhile, when I raised the objection that surely the Carthaginian trade network in the north had the advantage of being long established and would not be easy to sweep aside, I was told "but it has been a long time, by now the Massaliotes have built up their presence and eclipsed the Carthaginians." Well, if it was clear to the latter that the Greeks were horning in, shouldn't there have been a fight before the Greeks could get an upper hand?
If the Burdigalans, whom I gather were not much for seagoing trade on their own behalf, were unfriendly to the Massaliote project because they were happy to trade with Carthaginians or their allies coming to the Garrone estuary from afar, then the plan, I suppose, was to sneak past them, set up a base on the bay of Aracachon, from which to explore and build up a counter-network, and then at some point decisively cut off Carthaginian challenges. The best way to do that would be to descend on hostile Burdigala in force and seize it, and move the Atlantic base from inconvenient Naucratia to the Garrone estuary.
But an even better plan, I'd think, would have been to befriend the Burdigalans, come down the Garrone not with thousands but only hundreds or even just dozens of League traders, set up a small post there as guests of the Celtic town, and gradually expand. The Burdigalans could well welcome the extra trade, and in the context of mutual enrichment waive objections to a new Greek town growing up downstream of them. That town, not one on the backwater bay of Aracachon, would then become Naucratia.
If the Burdigalians were dead against this plan, why regard them as allies? Why not recruit their hostile neighbors as allies instead, invade and seize the city and rebuild it as Naucratia on that basis?
No matter how you approach it, the site you have put Naucratia on is pretty poor, due to poor communications inland.
I can see that the new town means something to you, and you are unwilling to simply move the business to Burdigala one way or another. Which is why I suggest two other paths to found "Naucratia," one peaceful, one aggressive, but either one cutting out a new city on the Garrone mouth where it belongs, bypassing this expensive side trip to the isolated Bay. A third path would be to conquer Burdigala later, and turn it into Naucratia, having named the temporary base on the southern bay something else first.
To simply say, "Naucratia is going great" when it is based on such a dead end body of water just seems crazy. At some point, Burdigala must be dealt with, and then it, not some colony on a bay that is just too cut off from overland contact to be viable.
@Shevek23
All Gauls in Massaliot territory have full Massaliot citizenship,so a rebellion of Gauls in Massaliot territory,except in newly conquered regions,is basically impossible.
All Gauls in Massaliot territory have full Massaliot citizenship,so a rebellion of Gauls in Massaliot territory,except in newly conquered regions,is basically impossible.
Um, no, clearly not. What about all the slaves taken when a Gaulish enemy is defeated? What about any remnant not either killed or enslaved, clearly making them equal citizens is just asking for trouble.
I figure on a hopscotch pattern; some Gauls ally with the League, some are the enemies of tribes the do that and therefore of the League. Defeating and destroying some Gaulish districts opens up territory to establish new Greek city -states, thus preserving the Greek side of the alliance and keeping it ethnically balanced.
Indeed this might change by this time--now that the fame of the League has preceded it, the majority of Gauls might want to concede and join immediately.
I believe many were rapidly assimilated much like what Rome did in OTL.As for slaves,they would be disarmed.As for people not killed or enslaved,they are clearly awed by Greek culture and were rapidly assimilated when they are offered equal citizenship.The thing is that in the antiquity,certain cultures were more appealing than others.It's why the Romans tried to emulate the Greeks and why countries like Korean and Japan sent students over to China to study their culture.
Last edited:
Hi @Shevek23 !
A civil war was really close in 248 BC if the political reforms under Nestor had failed to pass( basically happened the opposite from what really happened in Rome OTL prior the social wars). Nevertheless, i guess the new territories of Aedui are more easy to rebel. The Volcae and Averni tribes are almost completely Hellenised by now and most of them have citizenship.
You are right, the advancements in tech of Massalia will start spreading, sooner or later, to other civ’s. Especially the easy to copy cavalry tech.Btw Ptolemaic empire is already using the artillery structure of Massaliot League army. Any suggestions on the issue?
It is a hybrid Greek-Gaul culture. But the greek culture is dominant and the Massaliot League Gauls are rapidly assimilated to this. Still the Gaul influence is getting bigger step by step. Epona(Gaul goddes) is now one of the major Gods in Massaliot League, a Gaul-Greek version of Epicureanism is expanding rapidly and Gauls have now a say in the politics( one third of Dynatoi company members is of Gaul origin). In general you could say that both Greeks and Gauls are starting to be and feel more “Masaliotes” than Greeks or Gauls.
My style of writing is more of a text base alternative wiki page of this ATL. So i am writing the most important names. So far Gauls were not in the top of the state. But my infos and storyline gives few tokens to understand the situation.
When i visualise this “world” i see the same more or less. I don’t want to spoil the story but i have a general idea of this ATL for at least 100 more years so you can expect way more blend in the future.
The seven hundred thousands Gauls are free people with citizenship (except the Gauls in the new territories that have something like a second tier citizenship/more than two hundred thousands) My numbers are without counting the slaves(around four hundred thousands)
The cities on the list doesn’t mean they are completely Greek. In fact in Tolosa the Gauls are more than the Greeks and in Massalia there are around one hundred thousands Gauls. But Gauls do tend to spread out more over the land.
Burdigala ofc is better placed but when Naucratia was builded Masaliotes were desperate to have one port on their own to trade again in the Atlantic ocean. Maybe now that Sentones tribe are more or less a vassal of Massaliot league we see a swift to Burdigala? Like Portus supplement the port of Ostia for Romans in OTL?
The time of the rapid growth of Massaliot League in the Atlantic, Carthage was more into the affairs in Syracuse and west Med in generally. Besides Masaliotes were much closer to the Atlantic( with Naucratia) than the Carthaginians.
Ps : Any suggestions for the next years?
A civil war was really close in 248 BC if the political reforms under Nestor had failed to pass( basically happened the opposite from what really happened in Rome OTL prior the social wars). Nevertheless, i guess the new territories of Aedui are more easy to rebel. The Volcae and Averni tribes are almost completely Hellenised by now and most of them have citizenship.
You are right, the advancements in tech of Massalia will start spreading, sooner or later, to other civ’s. Especially the easy to copy cavalry tech.Btw Ptolemaic empire is already using the artillery structure of Massaliot League army. Any suggestions on the issue?
It is a hybrid Greek-Gaul culture. But the greek culture is dominant and the Massaliot League Gauls are rapidly assimilated to this. Still the Gaul influence is getting bigger step by step. Epona(Gaul goddes) is now one of the major Gods in Massaliot League, a Gaul-Greek version of Epicureanism is expanding rapidly and Gauls have now a say in the politics( one third of Dynatoi company members is of Gaul origin). In general you could say that both Greeks and Gauls are starting to be and feel more “Masaliotes” than Greeks or Gauls.
My style of writing is more of a text base alternative wiki page of this ATL. So i am writing the most important names. So far Gauls were not in the top of the state. But my infos and storyline gives few tokens to understand the situation.
When i visualise this “world” i see the same more or less. I don’t want to spoil the story but i have a general idea of this ATL for at least 100 more years so you can expect way more blend in the future.
The seven hundred thousands Gauls are free people with citizenship (except the Gauls in the new territories that have something like a second tier citizenship/more than two hundred thousands) My numbers are without counting the slaves(around four hundred thousands)
The cities on the list doesn’t mean they are completely Greek. In fact in Tolosa the Gauls are more than the Greeks and in Massalia there are around one hundred thousands Gauls. But Gauls do tend to spread out more over the land.
Burdigala ofc is better placed but when Naucratia was builded Masaliotes were desperate to have one port on their own to trade again in the Atlantic ocean. Maybe now that Sentones tribe are more or less a vassal of Massaliot league we see a swift to Burdigala? Like Portus supplement the port of Ostia for Romans in OTL?
The time of the rapid growth of Massaliot League in the Atlantic, Carthage was more into the affairs in Syracuse and west Med in generally. Besides Masaliotes were much closer to the Atlantic( with Naucratia) than the Carthaginians.
Ps : Any suggestions for the next years?
Last edited:
Flashpoint in Cisalpine Gaul between the Romans and the Massaliots.The Massaliots can't afford to lose the region to the Romans.It forms a buffer between Massalia and Roman territory.
Yeap a war with Rome i think is rather imminent. What do you think about the rest of the world?
Another "new rising power" story would be cool. Talk about the Illyrians a bit, maybe when (if) Epirus expands there. Dacia too needs some power-hungry warlord. As does Scythia. Everyone needs power-hungry warlords!
Massaliot League could start building more temples to the Celtic deities, and even some hybrid Gods can get started, like Serapis, and Hermanubis in Egypt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermanubis
The League should start looking for new allies with the Alliance over. The Barcid Kingdom, and Ptolemaic Empire would be good in dealing with Carthage.
How the Greco-Bactrian, India, and Bosporan Kingdom doing with things out west would be good. Maybe even as far away as China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermanubis
The League should start looking for new allies with the Alliance over. The Barcid Kingdom, and Ptolemaic Empire would be good in dealing with Carthage.
How the Greco-Bactrian, India, and Bosporan Kingdom doing with things out west would be good. Maybe even as far away as China.
I don't dictate sure paths that must be taken, merely try to keep up with the choices that must be made and point them out.
Given that Rome appears to be making a comeback, and therefore the expansion eastward across the Po valley to tap into the Celtic regions north of the Balkans appears to be blocked, the straightforward thing I expect is consolidating the grip on northern Iberia (meaning confrontation with the Baracid realm, but given that they've been cut off from Atlantic trade I don't see them as having a tremendous power base) while oozing on north in Gaul--more Gaulish wars but the ratchet effect favors the League--and deepening the grip and influences of the far-flung north Atlantic/Baltic colonies.
I'd have to have a better sense of just how good the Massaliot Atlantic ships are to have a sense of the likelihood they might discover any of the mid-Atlantic islands. Madeira and the Azores are completely unknown to the Classical world, and the Canaries are very peripheral indeed. The Baracids are better placed for the latter, especially since they know they are there already, but they have a weak power base. OTL it was actually an English crew that first landed on the Azores, though I am not sure they knew how to find their way back once they got away. And this was nearly 1500 years after the current setting. Your Massaliotes are advancing technically at a dizzy pace to be sure!
You ought to look into that. Tech-wanks are always fun, but one has to ask, if it took over a thousand years for a given thing to be adopted OTL, how can we reasonably justify leaping ahead in an ATL? I think most of the innovations you've developed so far are well-attested Classical discoveries and inventions--but innovation is not just a matter of making a working gadget, you have to also address how and why something is widely adopted.
People love to suggest that a Hellenistic Industrial Revolution was possible on the grounds of pointing at nifty devices invented in Alexandria or Syracuse. But they need to realize that the OTL basis of early and middle modern European industrialism was as much about social conditions and levels of population hence general intensity of development already in place as it was about mere availability of machinery. To exploit machinery in a cost-effective way, one needs a proletarian workforce--which means, a general level of market development to the point that a worker paid in money can purchase their essential needs on the market, which means a market that deals not only in luxuries and trinkets but in basic staples. Which means well developed, intensive transport infrastructure, more productive agriculture than in Classical times, and a generally mercantile-friendly society. The League may qualify in the latter category, but in general it would be unrealistic to expect a mechanical-industrial society to develop at least for many centuries to come! And more likely, a good thousand years of miscellaneous technical innovation and socio-political evolution is needed to lay the groundwork.
In the Classical era, mercantile profit is mainly a function of exploiting high differentials in local market capabilities--it deals in small masses of luxury goods. By sailing or otherwise traveling very far from the Classical production zones, goods that are relatively cheap to produce in the Med region such as advanced pottery or wines are unique and unreplicable in Baltic markets, whereas the Baltic peoples can easily lay hands on lots of amber, the Cornish tin mines are pretty productive, etc. One carries goods that have no local close counterpart a long way, and these command high prices because of their absolute scarcity, the early traders have in effect a monopoly. Thus they acquire large quantities of other goods that are cheap in the distant market but unique in the home market. The classical trader-adventurer sets very high costs of operation against very large profit margins, and thus the business is sustained.
But the more it expands, the more it undercuts itself. My belief is that the rise and fall of the Roman Empire OTL is largely explained by this phenomenon. When the Romans unified control over the entire Mediterranean shoreline, they slashed the costs of trade over that sea, and thus enabled a rush of mercantile expansion that for a time yielded high profits. Meanwhile, land that had been of dubious utility due to being strategically badly placed among warring tribes and city-states was now protected by Pax Romana, and therefore there was a corresponding land rush followed by a rise in the population and thus size of the trading market pool. For a couple centuries the Roman domains prospered on this basis.
But the prosperity was undermined. First of all the higher the volume of trade to distant markets, the lower the value of the trade goods they carried to those markets, due to a glut of availability from the cargoes of competitors. Secondly, the technology enabling Mediterranean peoples to offer goods of types or at lower prices the "barbarian" trade partners could not replicate was relatively simple and easy to transfer, and as that tech transferred to the partners the inventory of goods worth hauling to these markets dwindled back down to items that Mediterranean traders themselves had to purchase at great price--spices and so forth, less and less Med manufactures. This also meant that formerly backward "barbarians" now were more on a par with the developed Roman Empire peoples and therefore more of a military threat, lacking only organization to make their forces comparable with those Rome could deploy. Thirdly the extensive spread onto hitherto unused internal lands had its limits and once good lands were settled, population expansion could only be accommodated by either taking more and more marginal lands into cultivation at diminishing returns, or intensifying cultivation of established lands. Both imply a reduction in per capita wealth at a given technical state of the art--though a rise in net wealth of course. Many students of the fall of the Western Roman Empire have suggested a sociological factor--old Rome relied on drilling recruits from among countryside freeholders, who could be relied upon politically. But in the stagnating and overpopulating conditions later in the empire, society polarized more and more between rich and poor (a phenomenon already well under way in the Republican period) and the poor tended to slip down to the level of slave, or other forms of effective bondage. Such people were not politically reliable as army recruits nor was it in their owner/patron's interests to allow them to leave service to serve the state instead. Thus the manpower pool of Roman imperialism dried up and expedients of hiring mercenaries developed instead--with the general result of recruiting troops from outside the empire, who tended to become advance agents of the developing "barbarian" societies they were recruited from, who later invaded in force, on their own behalf and less and less in useful service. Another evolution was that as the people on the land polarized into rich and poor, the poor being effectively enslaved, largely enslaved outright, the rich tended more and more to be those who effectively evaded liability for Imperial service or taxation. Indeed the intensification of labor might have meant that objectively, the Empire was still getting richer--but wealth was increasingly in the hands of magnates who let little of it slip into the common pool. Some claim there was no "fall" in the sense of overall civilization collapsing and leaving a pre-Imperial vacuum of wilderness, but there certainly was a weakening of Imperial power, with the Pax degenerating into banditry and endemic local warfare, and the cities Romans valued dispersed their populations to the countryside which broke up into thousands of petty bailiwicks. The Empire collapsed. In the west anyway--in the east, the Emperors eventually hit upon sustainable solutions after much costly trial and error.
Industrial civilization eventually rose on the interim basis of local regimes gradually expanding and consolidating their own internal, more intensive development. As an anthropological rule, people prefer extensive solutions to intensive, the latter being harder work, so it is only when their horizons for extensive expansion are limited (by the presence of other people of comparable development surrounding them) that they turn to intensive solutions. These were on the strongly class polarized basis of feudal lords and a merchant class that arose partially to cater to their wants and partially to intensively cater to fellow peasants. Lords who learned to shrewdly patronize strong craftworker guilds and merchants gained wealth that empowered them in their rivalries and thus became the favored centers of expansion and consolidation, thus late medieval society was far more populous, intensively developed, and enjoyed fairly shrewd governance in one way or another--some communes formed mercantile republics, others were favored by shrewd kings or emperors; new dynasties with stronger ties to mercantile interests supplanted more old-fashioned ones or the latter learned to come to terms with their favored merchants. This is the basis on which mechanical ingenuity was favored and allowed to develop in useful forms that gradually formed a new basis for profits. Medieval and industrial profits shifted in basis from trade based on mere scarcity and novelty toward that based on higher concentrations of labor-content as productivity rose; goods traded not at random prices based on ignorance but shrewd estimates of value for value, and profit based on more economical modes of production were favored, rewarding investment in intensification.
I don't believe the latter development can go very far in Classical conditions, even in League that has a strongly mercantile outlook. Their classical mercantile mentality is based on the old form and will adapt poorly as the rising volume of trade undercuts the high profits they set out to gain by mere trade. The intensification of labor is a general benefit to society, but generally speaking the majority that has to do the work benefits least and last, and so the infrastructure of a large middle class supporting a very rich ruling class has to develop painfully and slowly. Roman style enslavement of the masses is a poor basis for flexible, innovative industrialization. I suspect that in the long run, League society is doomed to go down a similar path, sooner or later. And unlike Rome, the League is not about to conquer the entire Mediterranean shoreline, so they won't profit from that initial surge. Their path is more gradual and always uphill, expanding markets that will inevitably fall in profitability as they rise in volume. But volume will seem the only way out of the trap of falling profits!
The crisis may well yet lie many centuries ahead. But if the League is now richer than OTL due to a higher volume of Atlantic trade, they will merely accelerate and hasten the day when the crunch bites them.
There is also the matter of sheer distance to consider. It is exciting for me to look at the map of Celtic Europe, figure the League being a fusion society has an inside track on incorporating it all, and rub my hands together contemplating the mighty empire that appears on paper. But the Roman Empire was a creature of the Mediterranean shores, and transport and communications were hastened by seaborne traffic on its relatively calm and easily navigated waters surrounded by land that ranges from adequate to rich. To rule a comparable area inland, even tied together by rivers, is much more difficult. The League ought to be reaching limits of its intensive influence pretty soon, and a far-flung salient across the Po, over to Istria and thence on up into modern OTL Hungary is a wild fantasy. Long before such distant borders can be reached we can expect the structure to start breaking apart due to sheer long distances of communication.
Again the sudden and rapid rise of high technology--steam engines, semaphore telegraphs or even radio--can fix these problems, but for these societies to make the tools to make the tools to make this stuff is insanely improbable, I don't care how many toy turbines Hiero of Alexandria made! Honing such trinkets into useful tools requires a labor market that can incorporate them effectively and this is what the Classical world lacks.
It might be possible for the League heartland in the south to gradually shift over to an intensely farmed yeoman society whereby the countryside develops craft towns that move toward something like the early Italian Renaissance, and from there the crafts are very gradually replaced with gadgetry made by machine craftsmen. But I'd guess that would overall take the better part of a thousand years, and in the meantime society will more likely take some darker detours first.
----
For the short run, as I've suggested, simple expansion and intensification of established axes of movement such as incorporating more of Iberia (eliminating the Baracids won't do much to improve their economics of Atlantic trading but it will eliminate a potential rival route), drifting north in Gaul, expanding the size and scope of the north Atlantic colonies, seem like the natural course Massaliotes will take. They are blocked from going east and with the pillars of Hercules under their control North Africa is not a high priority.
Given that Rome appears to be making a comeback, and therefore the expansion eastward across the Po valley to tap into the Celtic regions north of the Balkans appears to be blocked, the straightforward thing I expect is consolidating the grip on northern Iberia (meaning confrontation with the Baracid realm, but given that they've been cut off from Atlantic trade I don't see them as having a tremendous power base) while oozing on north in Gaul--more Gaulish wars but the ratchet effect favors the League--and deepening the grip and influences of the far-flung north Atlantic/Baltic colonies.
I'd have to have a better sense of just how good the Massaliot Atlantic ships are to have a sense of the likelihood they might discover any of the mid-Atlantic islands. Madeira and the Azores are completely unknown to the Classical world, and the Canaries are very peripheral indeed. The Baracids are better placed for the latter, especially since they know they are there already, but they have a weak power base. OTL it was actually an English crew that first landed on the Azores, though I am not sure they knew how to find their way back once they got away. And this was nearly 1500 years after the current setting. Your Massaliotes are advancing technically at a dizzy pace to be sure!
You ought to look into that. Tech-wanks are always fun, but one has to ask, if it took over a thousand years for a given thing to be adopted OTL, how can we reasonably justify leaping ahead in an ATL? I think most of the innovations you've developed so far are well-attested Classical discoveries and inventions--but innovation is not just a matter of making a working gadget, you have to also address how and why something is widely adopted.
People love to suggest that a Hellenistic Industrial Revolution was possible on the grounds of pointing at nifty devices invented in Alexandria or Syracuse. But they need to realize that the OTL basis of early and middle modern European industrialism was as much about social conditions and levels of population hence general intensity of development already in place as it was about mere availability of machinery. To exploit machinery in a cost-effective way, one needs a proletarian workforce--which means, a general level of market development to the point that a worker paid in money can purchase their essential needs on the market, which means a market that deals not only in luxuries and trinkets but in basic staples. Which means well developed, intensive transport infrastructure, more productive agriculture than in Classical times, and a generally mercantile-friendly society. The League may qualify in the latter category, but in general it would be unrealistic to expect a mechanical-industrial society to develop at least for many centuries to come! And more likely, a good thousand years of miscellaneous technical innovation and socio-political evolution is needed to lay the groundwork.
In the Classical era, mercantile profit is mainly a function of exploiting high differentials in local market capabilities--it deals in small masses of luxury goods. By sailing or otherwise traveling very far from the Classical production zones, goods that are relatively cheap to produce in the Med region such as advanced pottery or wines are unique and unreplicable in Baltic markets, whereas the Baltic peoples can easily lay hands on lots of amber, the Cornish tin mines are pretty productive, etc. One carries goods that have no local close counterpart a long way, and these command high prices because of their absolute scarcity, the early traders have in effect a monopoly. Thus they acquire large quantities of other goods that are cheap in the distant market but unique in the home market. The classical trader-adventurer sets very high costs of operation against very large profit margins, and thus the business is sustained.
But the more it expands, the more it undercuts itself. My belief is that the rise and fall of the Roman Empire OTL is largely explained by this phenomenon. When the Romans unified control over the entire Mediterranean shoreline, they slashed the costs of trade over that sea, and thus enabled a rush of mercantile expansion that for a time yielded high profits. Meanwhile, land that had been of dubious utility due to being strategically badly placed among warring tribes and city-states was now protected by Pax Romana, and therefore there was a corresponding land rush followed by a rise in the population and thus size of the trading market pool. For a couple centuries the Roman domains prospered on this basis.
But the prosperity was undermined. First of all the higher the volume of trade to distant markets, the lower the value of the trade goods they carried to those markets, due to a glut of availability from the cargoes of competitors. Secondly, the technology enabling Mediterranean peoples to offer goods of types or at lower prices the "barbarian" trade partners could not replicate was relatively simple and easy to transfer, and as that tech transferred to the partners the inventory of goods worth hauling to these markets dwindled back down to items that Mediterranean traders themselves had to purchase at great price--spices and so forth, less and less Med manufactures. This also meant that formerly backward "barbarians" now were more on a par with the developed Roman Empire peoples and therefore more of a military threat, lacking only organization to make their forces comparable with those Rome could deploy. Thirdly the extensive spread onto hitherto unused internal lands had its limits and once good lands were settled, population expansion could only be accommodated by either taking more and more marginal lands into cultivation at diminishing returns, or intensifying cultivation of established lands. Both imply a reduction in per capita wealth at a given technical state of the art--though a rise in net wealth of course. Many students of the fall of the Western Roman Empire have suggested a sociological factor--old Rome relied on drilling recruits from among countryside freeholders, who could be relied upon politically. But in the stagnating and overpopulating conditions later in the empire, society polarized more and more between rich and poor (a phenomenon already well under way in the Republican period) and the poor tended to slip down to the level of slave, or other forms of effective bondage. Such people were not politically reliable as army recruits nor was it in their owner/patron's interests to allow them to leave service to serve the state instead. Thus the manpower pool of Roman imperialism dried up and expedients of hiring mercenaries developed instead--with the general result of recruiting troops from outside the empire, who tended to become advance agents of the developing "barbarian" societies they were recruited from, who later invaded in force, on their own behalf and less and less in useful service. Another evolution was that as the people on the land polarized into rich and poor, the poor being effectively enslaved, largely enslaved outright, the rich tended more and more to be those who effectively evaded liability for Imperial service or taxation. Indeed the intensification of labor might have meant that objectively, the Empire was still getting richer--but wealth was increasingly in the hands of magnates who let little of it slip into the common pool. Some claim there was no "fall" in the sense of overall civilization collapsing and leaving a pre-Imperial vacuum of wilderness, but there certainly was a weakening of Imperial power, with the Pax degenerating into banditry and endemic local warfare, and the cities Romans valued dispersed their populations to the countryside which broke up into thousands of petty bailiwicks. The Empire collapsed. In the west anyway--in the east, the Emperors eventually hit upon sustainable solutions after much costly trial and error.
Industrial civilization eventually rose on the interim basis of local regimes gradually expanding and consolidating their own internal, more intensive development. As an anthropological rule, people prefer extensive solutions to intensive, the latter being harder work, so it is only when their horizons for extensive expansion are limited (by the presence of other people of comparable development surrounding them) that they turn to intensive solutions. These were on the strongly class polarized basis of feudal lords and a merchant class that arose partially to cater to their wants and partially to intensively cater to fellow peasants. Lords who learned to shrewdly patronize strong craftworker guilds and merchants gained wealth that empowered them in their rivalries and thus became the favored centers of expansion and consolidation, thus late medieval society was far more populous, intensively developed, and enjoyed fairly shrewd governance in one way or another--some communes formed mercantile republics, others were favored by shrewd kings or emperors; new dynasties with stronger ties to mercantile interests supplanted more old-fashioned ones or the latter learned to come to terms with their favored merchants. This is the basis on which mechanical ingenuity was favored and allowed to develop in useful forms that gradually formed a new basis for profits. Medieval and industrial profits shifted in basis from trade based on mere scarcity and novelty toward that based on higher concentrations of labor-content as productivity rose; goods traded not at random prices based on ignorance but shrewd estimates of value for value, and profit based on more economical modes of production were favored, rewarding investment in intensification.
I don't believe the latter development can go very far in Classical conditions, even in League that has a strongly mercantile outlook. Their classical mercantile mentality is based on the old form and will adapt poorly as the rising volume of trade undercuts the high profits they set out to gain by mere trade. The intensification of labor is a general benefit to society, but generally speaking the majority that has to do the work benefits least and last, and so the infrastructure of a large middle class supporting a very rich ruling class has to develop painfully and slowly. Roman style enslavement of the masses is a poor basis for flexible, innovative industrialization. I suspect that in the long run, League society is doomed to go down a similar path, sooner or later. And unlike Rome, the League is not about to conquer the entire Mediterranean shoreline, so they won't profit from that initial surge. Their path is more gradual and always uphill, expanding markets that will inevitably fall in profitability as they rise in volume. But volume will seem the only way out of the trap of falling profits!
The crisis may well yet lie many centuries ahead. But if the League is now richer than OTL due to a higher volume of Atlantic trade, they will merely accelerate and hasten the day when the crunch bites them.
There is also the matter of sheer distance to consider. It is exciting for me to look at the map of Celtic Europe, figure the League being a fusion society has an inside track on incorporating it all, and rub my hands together contemplating the mighty empire that appears on paper. But the Roman Empire was a creature of the Mediterranean shores, and transport and communications were hastened by seaborne traffic on its relatively calm and easily navigated waters surrounded by land that ranges from adequate to rich. To rule a comparable area inland, even tied together by rivers, is much more difficult. The League ought to be reaching limits of its intensive influence pretty soon, and a far-flung salient across the Po, over to Istria and thence on up into modern OTL Hungary is a wild fantasy. Long before such distant borders can be reached we can expect the structure to start breaking apart due to sheer long distances of communication.
Again the sudden and rapid rise of high technology--steam engines, semaphore telegraphs or even radio--can fix these problems, but for these societies to make the tools to make the tools to make this stuff is insanely improbable, I don't care how many toy turbines Hiero of Alexandria made! Honing such trinkets into useful tools requires a labor market that can incorporate them effectively and this is what the Classical world lacks.
It might be possible for the League heartland in the south to gradually shift over to an intensely farmed yeoman society whereby the countryside develops craft towns that move toward something like the early Italian Renaissance, and from there the crafts are very gradually replaced with gadgetry made by machine craftsmen. But I'd guess that would overall take the better part of a thousand years, and in the meantime society will more likely take some darker detours first.
----
For the short run, as I've suggested, simple expansion and intensification of established axes of movement such as incorporating more of Iberia (eliminating the Baracids won't do much to improve their economics of Atlantic trading but it will eliminate a potential rival route), drifting north in Gaul, expanding the size and scope of the north Atlantic colonies, seem like the natural course Massaliotes will take. They are blocked from going east and with the pillars of Hercules under their control North Africa is not a high priority.
Great suggestions @Shevek23
Yes i agree, thats why i try not to "tech-wank" a lot...
With the revolution in agriculture(water wheels in 271 BC,the invention of Archimedes, the screw, in 255) the new bureaucracy central government, the citizenship to Gauls/thus an open society,the land distribution, the vide spread of Epicureanism,the guilds and the political parties/chartered companies of Massalia is an explosive mix for miracles to happen. I don't say we gonna steam engines but i am really curious to see what this mix can produce(not sure yet).
Some importand economic/politicosocial dates in this ATL so far:
271 BC
From a crisis to a nation
With tens of thousands Greeks settling from Magna Graecia to Massaliot league lands, a shortage in food led to an increase of the prices.Tensions arise all over Massaliot League. The extra grain imports from Alexandria and Syracuse that started in 272 BC with new bigger trade ships helped to deal with the situation. But it was Aleksagoras that gave the final solution that changed Massaliot League. Aleksagoras a statesman,inventor and mathematician from Alexandria was invited to be the new first head of the museum a couple of years ago. This food crisis helped Aleksagoras to convince the assembly, in a more central state of governance in the way’s of the Ptolemaic model. The Ptolemaic Egypt was the most efficiently organised government in the Hellenistic world. It took its national form from Egypt and Persia, its municipal form from Greece, and passed them on to the Massaliot League. Massaliot League was divided into new nomes or provinces, each administered by appointees of the federal council of the Massaliot assembly. A bureaucracy of governmental overseers established. The centralisation of economic management in the hands of the Federal council/government, made easier public works of road construction, irrigation, and building.
The ancient techniques of farming was replaced by the new breakthrough invention of water wheel machines(the Noria). Large Noria water wheel machines sometimes forty feet in diameter builded all over Massaliot League. Nearly every new settler in Massaliot League was told by the officials what soil to till and what crops to grow. An agriculture revolution started.
The Industry was re developed also. New state factories builded. Artefacts,furnitures,pottery,textile manufacturing were produced in abundance, weapon and armour manufacturing(a blend of Gaul-Greek techniques) were Massalia's specialties. The screw chain, the wheel chain, the cam chain, the ratchet chain, the pulley chain, and the screw press were all in use.
The warehouses of Massalia invited world trade, its harbor was the envy of other cities. The fields, factories, and workshops of Massaliot League supplied a great surplus within the next years, which found markets as far east as Arabia, as far south as central Africa, as far north as Baltic sea and the British Isles.
247 BC
With the control of trade in both Atlantic and west Mediterranean sea Massaliot League was stronger and wealthier than ever. This vast network sparkled a huge trade, economic and opportunity for people, boom. Every kind of trade and business throughout the Massaliot league had now its own guild. The purpose of the guild was no doubt to protect and advance the interests of the trade but in some cases, securing also the election of candidates for the federal council of the league. Most of the strongest “political” guilds were under the control of Palaioi or Dynatoi companies. Both Palaioi and Dynatoi companies were by now, pretty much political parties dominating the federal council. For years now both strategoi/episcopoi of the federal council were from this two parties. As they grew wealthier, those companies/political parties developed extensive administrations for their ventures, seeking more and more control and influence. This led to the foundation of the first chartered companies in history.
Chartered companies were usually formed, incorporated and legitimised under a royal or, in republics, an equivalent government charter. This document set out the terms under which the company could trade, defined its boundaries of influence, and described its rights and responsibilities.
the charters of the Palaioi and Dynatoi companies, given by the Massaliot League federal council allowed the two companies to:
In return, the companies agreed to develop the territory they controlled, to allow free trade within its territory and give thirty percent of the profits to the common treasury of the Massaliot League.
Yes i agree, thats why i try not to "tech-wank" a lot...
With the revolution in agriculture(water wheels in 271 BC,the invention of Archimedes, the screw, in 255) the new bureaucracy central government, the citizenship to Gauls/thus an open society,the land distribution, the vide spread of Epicureanism,the guilds and the political parties/chartered companies of Massalia is an explosive mix for miracles to happen. I don't say we gonna steam engines but i am really curious to see what this mix can produce(not sure yet).
Some importand economic/politicosocial dates in this ATL so far:
271 BC
From a crisis to a nation
With tens of thousands Greeks settling from Magna Graecia to Massaliot league lands, a shortage in food led to an increase of the prices.Tensions arise all over Massaliot League. The extra grain imports from Alexandria and Syracuse that started in 272 BC with new bigger trade ships helped to deal with the situation. But it was Aleksagoras that gave the final solution that changed Massaliot League. Aleksagoras a statesman,inventor and mathematician from Alexandria was invited to be the new first head of the museum a couple of years ago. This food crisis helped Aleksagoras to convince the assembly, in a more central state of governance in the way’s of the Ptolemaic model. The Ptolemaic Egypt was the most efficiently organised government in the Hellenistic world. It took its national form from Egypt and Persia, its municipal form from Greece, and passed them on to the Massaliot League. Massaliot League was divided into new nomes or provinces, each administered by appointees of the federal council of the Massaliot assembly. A bureaucracy of governmental overseers established. The centralisation of economic management in the hands of the Federal council/government, made easier public works of road construction, irrigation, and building.
The ancient techniques of farming was replaced by the new breakthrough invention of water wheel machines(the Noria). Large Noria water wheel machines sometimes forty feet in diameter builded all over Massaliot League. Nearly every new settler in Massaliot League was told by the officials what soil to till and what crops to grow. An agriculture revolution started.
The Industry was re developed also. New state factories builded. Artefacts,furnitures,pottery,textile manufacturing were produced in abundance, weapon and armour manufacturing(a blend of Gaul-Greek techniques) were Massalia's specialties. The screw chain, the wheel chain, the cam chain, the ratchet chain, the pulley chain, and the screw press were all in use.
The warehouses of Massalia invited world trade, its harbor was the envy of other cities. The fields, factories, and workshops of Massaliot League supplied a great surplus within the next years, which found markets as far east as Arabia, as far south as central Africa, as far north as Baltic sea and the British Isles.
247 BC
With the control of trade in both Atlantic and west Mediterranean sea Massaliot League was stronger and wealthier than ever. This vast network sparkled a huge trade, economic and opportunity for people, boom. Every kind of trade and business throughout the Massaliot league had now its own guild. The purpose of the guild was no doubt to protect and advance the interests of the trade but in some cases, securing also the election of candidates for the federal council of the league. Most of the strongest “political” guilds were under the control of Palaioi or Dynatoi companies. Both Palaioi and Dynatoi companies were by now, pretty much political parties dominating the federal council. For years now both strategoi/episcopoi of the federal council were from this two parties. As they grew wealthier, those companies/political parties developed extensive administrations for their ventures, seeking more and more control and influence. This led to the foundation of the first chartered companies in history.
Chartered companies were usually formed, incorporated and legitimised under a royal or, in republics, an equivalent government charter. This document set out the terms under which the company could trade, defined its boundaries of influence, and described its rights and responsibilities.
the charters of the Palaioi and Dynatoi companies, given by the Massaliot League federal council allowed the two companies to:
- Trade monopolies from new expeditions
- Form “banks”
- Own, and grant or distribute lands of future colonies/lands in Atlantic ocean.
- Raise/sponsor military for new conquests under approval and control from the federal council.
In return, the companies agreed to develop the territory they controlled, to allow free trade within its territory and give thirty percent of the profits to the common treasury of the Massaliot League.
236 BC. The expedition of Argiros
236/235 BC
The expedition of Argiros
A new massive expedition of forty Venemeres* and several smaller ships with a total of nine thousands crew and settlers with the support of both companies and Federal council, set sail from Naucratia to explore and settle new trade hubs in modern day Portugal and the Atlantic coast of Africa.
The first stop of Argiros was in the land of a small Celtic tribe near modern day Porto were he establish a new trade hub colony Orestiko and exchange gifts with the local chief. From there he sailed to the independent/ex Carthage town of Tagus.The sheltered harbour in the Tagus River estuary was an ideal spot for an Iberian settlement and would have provided a secure harbour for unloading and provisioning Phoenician ships.The Tagus settlement was an important centre of commercial trade with the inland tribes, providing an outlet for the valuable metals, salt and salted-fish they collected, and for the sale of the Lusitanian horses renowned in antiquity. After a small battle and siege the city felt to Argiros forces. From there they passed through Barcid kingdom lands without a problem. Hamilcar Bacra, to secure good relations with Massaliot League, even open the harbor and market of Onoba to Argiros expedition.
Argiros sailed from Onoba to Lixus a semi independent/Carthage small colony. The people of Lixus pledge their alliance to Massaliot League and help Argiros fleet. From there he sailed to Thymiaterion/safi an old Greek colony, now with a mix Greek-Carthaginian Population of five hundred. A new Fortress builded in Safi before Argiros sail leaving six hundred people behind.
From there Argiros sailed even more south to the island of Arguin were he set up a new fort and a major trading colony of two thousands Neagathe, which acquired gum and slaves for Massaliot League. With a fleet of ten Venemeres and two thousands crew and settlers went even more south to delta of the Senegal river were he set up another new fort and colony Ypernoteia. After staying for some months in Ypernoteia he even sailed inland through the Senegal river with three small ships. There he made contact with a number of clans of proto-Soninke, the oldest branch of the Mandé (Manding) people.
This clans comprised a confederation of independent, freely allied, “states”. Located midway between the desert, the main source of salt, and the gold fields of the upper Senegal River to the south, the confederation had a good location to take advantage of trade with the surrounding cities. They traded with Massaliot League by Senegal river route leading to Ypernoteia. After the contact with the Soninke Argiros decided to finally to return home.
*Venemeres was a atlantic sea type of ship, a large "galley" that used two masts(fore-mast and main-mast), a deck and a stern-hung rudder. It was equally in size with a hexareme and was inspired by the Venetii tribe ships.The descriptions of the Venetii ships describe a very different style of vessel. Higher sides than the Roman types opposing it and relying upon sails exclusively. The water they plied was the channel and western France, rougher seas were to be expected. But also, since the area had a lot of shallows, a deep draft would be a detriment. This implies a wide beam (to stabilize for the masts and sails and carry a worthwhile load) and later vessels of the region had wide beams, so it is likely the Venetii ships did also.
stern-hung rudder: Duplidus a hellenised Gaul, mathematician and engineer, who studied in the past st the museum of Massalia under Archimedes, while he was working in the naval arsenal of Naucratia trying to find solutions for some contolling issues in the handling of the new bigger venemeres came up with the idea of a stern-hung rudder.
By place
Turkey
The expedition of Argiros
A new massive expedition of forty Venemeres* and several smaller ships with a total of nine thousands crew and settlers with the support of both companies and Federal council, set sail from Naucratia to explore and settle new trade hubs in modern day Portugal and the Atlantic coast of Africa.
The first stop of Argiros was in the land of a small Celtic tribe near modern day Porto were he establish a new trade hub colony Orestiko and exchange gifts with the local chief. From there he sailed to the independent/ex Carthage town of Tagus.The sheltered harbour in the Tagus River estuary was an ideal spot for an Iberian settlement and would have provided a secure harbour for unloading and provisioning Phoenician ships.The Tagus settlement was an important centre of commercial trade with the inland tribes, providing an outlet for the valuable metals, salt and salted-fish they collected, and for the sale of the Lusitanian horses renowned in antiquity. After a small battle and siege the city felt to Argiros forces. From there they passed through Barcid kingdom lands without a problem. Hamilcar Bacra, to secure good relations with Massaliot League, even open the harbor and market of Onoba to Argiros expedition.
Argiros sailed from Onoba to Lixus a semi independent/Carthage small colony. The people of Lixus pledge their alliance to Massaliot League and help Argiros fleet. From there he sailed to Thymiaterion/safi an old Greek colony, now with a mix Greek-Carthaginian Population of five hundred. A new Fortress builded in Safi before Argiros sail leaving six hundred people behind.
From there Argiros sailed even more south to the island of Arguin were he set up a new fort and a major trading colony of two thousands Neagathe, which acquired gum and slaves for Massaliot League. With a fleet of ten Venemeres and two thousands crew and settlers went even more south to delta of the Senegal river were he set up another new fort and colony Ypernoteia. After staying for some months in Ypernoteia he even sailed inland through the Senegal river with three small ships. There he made contact with a number of clans of proto-Soninke, the oldest branch of the Mandé (Manding) people.
This clans comprised a confederation of independent, freely allied, “states”. Located midway between the desert, the main source of salt, and the gold fields of the upper Senegal River to the south, the confederation had a good location to take advantage of trade with the surrounding cities. They traded with Massaliot League by Senegal river route leading to Ypernoteia. After the contact with the Soninke Argiros decided to finally to return home.
*Venemeres was a atlantic sea type of ship, a large "galley" that used two masts(fore-mast and main-mast), a deck and a stern-hung rudder. It was equally in size with a hexareme and was inspired by the Venetii tribe ships.The descriptions of the Venetii ships describe a very different style of vessel. Higher sides than the Roman types opposing it and relying upon sails exclusively. The water they plied was the channel and western France, rougher seas were to be expected. But also, since the area had a lot of shallows, a deep draft would be a detriment. This implies a wide beam (to stabilize for the masts and sails and carry a worthwhile load) and later vessels of the region had wide beams, so it is likely the Venetii ships did also.
stern-hung rudder: Duplidus a hellenised Gaul, mathematician and engineer, who studied in the past st the museum of Massalia under Archimedes, while he was working in the naval arsenal of Naucratia trying to find solutions for some contolling issues in the handling of the new bigger venemeres came up with the idea of a stern-hung rudder.
By place
Turkey
- Antiochus Hierax inflicts a crushing defeat on his Father army at Ancyra in Anatolia. Antiochus II leaves modern day Turkey to his son.Thus the kingdom of Hierax is now established.
- Eratosthenes is appointed by King Ptolemy III Euergetes as head and third librarian of the Alexandrian library.
Last edited:
Any chance that the Baracids will seek more and more detente with the League leading to effectively joining it? It would be nice for all Iberia to fall into the League sphere, even nicer to take western North Africa as well, and if this were not a TL with Massalia the clear hero, I'd have been rooting for the Carthaginians.
If the Baracids do fuse or anyway ally with the League, Carthage is dead in the water, having only the outlet of trans-Saharan trade--a trade the League is bidding to bypass by coasting down Africa.
However--you have to deal with the currents and winds off western Africa. As I understand it they are quite contrary for any coast-hugging ships seeking to return north to the Pillars of Hercules or Naucratia. The Portuguese had to learn to sail far out west to catch less unfavorable conditions to work northward again. I suppose your expedition might row, the ships being a kind of galleas. But it would be terribly hard work, in the tropical heat with few good sources of water or anything else hydrating to drink, and not really suitable for hauling cargo. (Gold might be doable. But the rowers would earn a big chunk of it!)
If the vememares are suitable for operations distant from shore, they might learn to stand off far from land and work their way north. If they are doing this, the likelihood they'll eventually stumble on the mid-Atlantic islands is higher. But it would be a brave souled crew indeed that first tried it, not knowing what conditions they would meet!
Among other arts, key arts that advanced seamanship OTl to the point that world-circumnavigating voyages were possible included developing superior forms of provisions that would keep longer during long stretches of time on the open sea. Ship structure alone won't do it.
If the Baracids do fuse or anyway ally with the League, Carthage is dead in the water, having only the outlet of trans-Saharan trade--a trade the League is bidding to bypass by coasting down Africa.
However--you have to deal with the currents and winds off western Africa. As I understand it they are quite contrary for any coast-hugging ships seeking to return north to the Pillars of Hercules or Naucratia. The Portuguese had to learn to sail far out west to catch less unfavorable conditions to work northward again. I suppose your expedition might row, the ships being a kind of galleas. But it would be terribly hard work, in the tropical heat with few good sources of water or anything else hydrating to drink, and not really suitable for hauling cargo. (Gold might be doable. But the rowers would earn a big chunk of it!)
If the vememares are suitable for operations distant from shore, they might learn to stand off far from land and work their way north. If they are doing this, the likelihood they'll eventually stumble on the mid-Atlantic islands is higher. But it would be a brave souled crew indeed that first tried it, not knowing what conditions they would meet!
Among other arts, key arts that advanced seamanship OTl to the point that world-circumnavigating voyages were possible included developing superior forms of provisions that would keep longer during long stretches of time on the open sea. Ship structure alone won't do it.
Hecatee
Donor
I think one of the great strenght of the massalian that might partly explain its technological success is the fact that the Gauls don't have the prejudice against manual labor that the Greeks had, so this might make them the great inventors and innovators while the Greeks are the teachers and philosophers. Now one may also expect water-wheel mills in the not too distant future, especially if water control is becoming a major element of the local civilization (noria, water-mining, ...). They may lack some of the technologies for perfect aqueducts, but hellenistic bath do show that the Greeks had some water-resistant product for inside of their water channels, so we could see them build a proto-Barbegual type mill. Their main constraints however remain transport cost and the fact they probably still rely on slaves for too many things.
Iberia is for sure a major goal for Massalia. Maybe Barcid kingdom become a client state? Btw i would love to read a good Carthage ATL.
Yes the currents its an issue for sure.The Venemeres are suitable(to a point) for operations distand from shore so Grand Canaria and maybe Madeira is within reach.
Yes i know. Thats why so far i have stick up within the limits of travels that happent in OTL also:
The Periplus of Hanno the Navigator
The Periplus of Himilco the Navigator
Pytheas of Massilia, On the Ocean (Περί του Ωκεανού)
Yes i try to go to this direction!
Also with Epicurean ideas( everyone is equal/free) i try to build a anti slave society thus leading to more paid manual labor etc
We are really close to a proto Barbegual type mill if not there all ready.
I'm looking forward to Massalian experiments with blue water fleets rather than their current green water fleets, probably developed by someone in the African trade. Ypernoteia will probably have to be a major trade post rather than just the most far flung before that happens.
Considering the volume of gold exports that are possible in the region, I can see it becoming important - trading salt (be it mined or sea-salt) for gold, will make the city wealthy within the League - perhaps even wealthy enough to begin to add parts of Sub-Saharan Africa to the league, at which point the League will really have expanded from just being Helleno-Gallic, to Helleno-Global. I suppose this all depends on the military independence of the Ypernoteia outpost - if it grows, can it take its own military action?
It also begs the question - with this cause regionalisation within the League? So the League-In-Gaul would be organised separately from the League-In-Ghana, so on, and so forth. Nonetheless, Ypernoteia is going to be an exciting place to watch, potentially the prelude to a great city - can anyone say Dakar!
Seriously, it could be a larger city than Constantinople, with shorter walls! Heart of an Atlantic Trade Network.
Considering the volume of gold exports that are possible in the region, I can see it becoming important - trading salt (be it mined or sea-salt) for gold, will make the city wealthy within the League - perhaps even wealthy enough to begin to add parts of Sub-Saharan Africa to the league, at which point the League will really have expanded from just being Helleno-Gallic, to Helleno-Global. I suppose this all depends on the military independence of the Ypernoteia outpost - if it grows, can it take its own military action?
It also begs the question - with this cause regionalisation within the League? So the League-In-Gaul would be organised separately from the League-In-Ghana, so on, and so forth. Nonetheless, Ypernoteia is going to be an exciting place to watch, potentially the prelude to a great city - can anyone say Dakar!
Seriously, it could be a larger city than Constantinople, with shorter walls! Heart of an Atlantic Trade Network.