Um, what Massaliot navy--in the Atlantic?

They are learning to make ships there and to sail them. The Punics have been at it for hundreds of years.

There is a new ship design perfect for Atlantic, Venemeres( inspired from Venetii tribe) that Massaliot League started to use the last decades. But you got a point there.

The Carthaginian traders at large in the northlands probably left before the war started and the first they'll hear of it would be some Massaliot yelling at them to follow a treaty they've never heard of.

Baracid Iberia spans the Strait of Gibraltar. The Massaliot navy can come down there and unblock the strait. Then they are sailing on unfamiliar Atlantic waters, where Carthaginian resources are scattered all up and down the European coast.

And if the Carthaginians want to build a new, Atlantic, navy, they can perhaps rely on friendly Celts or other trading partners to help build and man it.

I agree, Massalia probably is on the inside track, long term. But still coming from behind in the north, and the game is not over yet. Especially if the Carthaginians are better at making friends with people with strange customs than the Massaliotes are, the latter might be in for an unexpected thrashing.

Valid points. Nevertheless Massaliot League is too strong for Carthage and Barcid Kingdom. Anyway i see Barcid Kingdom in better position than Carthage.
 
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249 BC. Loukios expedition.
249 BC

A new expedition, with funds from the common treasury, under geographer and explorer Loukios will follow Pytheas and Adelphius routes to the North, to establish new trade hubs and establish a colony in a land rich in amber at the Baltic sea. Ten venemeres and several trade ships with more than two thousand crew,colonist and traders set sail from Naucratia.

Loukios expedition (249-246 BC)

After Kassitia the first stop of Loukios was in the lands of Robogdi’s and other small tribes, were he establish a trade hub colony(Agrinio) and exchanged gifts with the local kings. From there he sailed to modern day Scotland were he establish small trade hubs and meet the Caledonia tribe. After the establish of formal relations with them, Loukios sailed South East to Coritani(Britons) lands. From there he went to Kallikrateia were stayed for some time. After Kallikrateia he made a stop in Abalus and from there he went all the way up to modern day Oslo,Norway. After Oslo he sailed South to modern day Halmstad were he establish a new trade hub colony, Ypervoreia. After some months he left Ypervoreia and went all the way to the Baltic Sea, were he reach the rich in precious amber modern day Gdansk, the primary reason of this expedition. Chalkis a new trade hub colony of one hundred people establish. When the fortifications of the new settlement were ready, Loukios sailed all the way up to modern day Gotland and Stockholm. After that he returned home. The expedition was a big success, Massaliot League now had direct access to the biggest source of Amber in Europe.


IwWgHxB.jpg



Barcid Kingdom

  • Diplomats send to Massalia to establish formal relations
 
Um, what Massaliot navy--in the Atlantic?

They are learning to make ships there and to sail them. The Punics have been at it for hundreds of years. The Carthaginian traders at large in the northlands probably left before the war started and the first they'll hear of it would be some Massaliot yelling at them to follow a treaty they've never heard of.

Baracid Iberia spans the Strait of Gibraltar. The Massaliot navy can come down there and unblock the strait. Then they are sailing on unfamiliar Atlantic waters, where Carthaginian resources are scattered all up and down the European coast.

And if the Carthaginians want to build a new, Atlantic, navy, they can perhaps rely on friendly Celts or other trading partners to help build and man it.

I agree, Massalia probably is on the inside track, long term. But still coming from behind in the north, and the game is not over yet. Especially if the Carthaginians are better at making friends with people with strange customs than the Massaliotes are, the latter might be in for an unexpected thrashing.
Like Sensor mentioned,the Massaliots have a navy in the Atlantic that's adapted for use in the Atlantic.They've been sailing there and fighting battles there for around three decades.Not to mention,the Massaliot presence in the Atlantic is probably much larger than it's presence in the Mediterranean.There's much more Massaliot colonies and tradeposts in the Atlantic than there is in the Mediterranean.They aren't unfamiliar with the Atlantic at all.Also,the Barcids will probably need to trade in the Mediterranean as well.The whole point of trying to trade in the Atlantic is moot if you can't sell Atlantic goods to countries in the Mediterranean,where the Massaliots can try to raid as well.

Wow,the Massaliot enclaves are pretty large.Most of Holland is under Massaliot rule.
 
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Wow,the Massaliot enclaves are pretty large.Most of Holland is under Massaliot rule.

For now its more of a influence zone than a direct control of the area. The Massaliot League cities in the North are more or less trade/strongholds colonies with some kind of control in the area around them. Slowly but steady this control is getting bigger and bigger.

So major Greeks colonies all around Northern Europe. Any suggestions on what the impact will be to the local population?
 
For now its more of a influence zone than a direct control of the area. The Massaliot League cities in the North are more or less trade/strongholds colonies with some kind of control in the area around them. Slowly but steady this control is getting bigger and bigger.

So major Greeks colonies all around Northern Europe. Any suggestions on what the impact will be to the local population?

We could see a sort of Greco-Germanic/Nordic and Greco-Slave culture come to be at some point.
 
We could see a sort of Greco-Germanic/Nordic and Greco-Slave culture come to be at some point.
I do not think. The northern and eastern Europe a couple of centuries will become the area of migration, in such circumstances, not too densely populated Greek colonies did not survive, and those that remain away from the hordes of conquerors lose touch with their homeland, and the solution among many tribes. But all the same it will be possible to talk about a certain Hellenization of the local population (especially the Balto-Slavs, who at that time barely formed, and can be much borrow from the Greeks). And Bowes we get more information about these peoples.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
May I compliment you on this very interesting timeline, Sersor? Lots of hellenistic timelines focus on Greece (obviously) or Magna Graecia or on of the Diadochi kingdoms. Massalia gets overlooked a lot, and there is a lot of potential for interesting tangents here. So this is all very interesting to read, and I have just binge-read the entire TL.

I you will permit some minor critical notes: there is a danger of 'wanking' the League out of proportion. The dangers of the typical (rather chauvinist) Hellenist mindset have been pointed out. At some point in the near future, there will have to be some sort of resolution to that. Either the Greeks will have to start treating the Hellenized Celts as equals (or something very close), or those same Celts will eventually use their greater numbers to revolt and take over the League.

Suggestion: a minor civil war, whereby a faction of the Celts attempt to take over, and another faction stays loyal - and the Hellenes only stay in power because the loyalist Celts help them out. After the conflict, full citizenship is granted to every sufficiently Hellenized person. Both as a reward to the loyalists and as a way to prevent further uprisings. Also... if only Hellinized people get full citizinship, that's an incentive for other Celtic tribes to start adopting more Hellenistic customs, right?

Another point: why are the Frisii shown within the Celtic cultural sphere? Maybe I missed something while reading the TL in one sitting... but the Frisii were firmly Germanic. In the period of TTL, the Frisii were situated a bit more northerly than on your map, at the southwestern border of the germanic cultural area. Pretty much Northwest Germany -- Northeast Netherlands. See this map (which is somewhat inaccurate, but gets you the idea): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Pre_Migration_Age_Germanic.png The westernmost end of the dark red area is where you'd find the (proto-)Frisii at the point you TL is in now.
 
May I compliment you on this very interesting timeline, Sersor? Lots of hellenistic timelines focus on Greece (obviously) or Magna Graecia or on of the Diadochi kingdoms. Massalia gets overlooked a lot, and there is a lot of potential for interesting tangents here. So this is all very interesting to read, and I have just binge-read the entire TL.
Thank you for your kind words!

I you will permit some minor critical notes: there is a danger of 'wanking' the League out of proportion. The dangers of the typical (rather chauvinist) Hellenist mindset have been pointed out. At some point in the near future, there will have to be some sort of resolution to that. Either the Greeks will have to start treating the Hellenized Celts as equals (or something very close), or those same Celts will eventually use their greater numbers to revolt and take over the League.

Suggestion: a minor civil war, whereby a faction of the Celts attempt to take over, and another faction stays loyal - and the Hellenes only stay in power because the loyalist Celts help them out. After the conflict, full citizenship is granted to every sufficiently Hellenized person. Both as a reward to the loyalists and as a way to prevent further uprisings. Also... if only Hellinized people get full citizinship, that's an incentive for other Celtic tribes to start adopting more Hellenistic customs, right?

Yes i have it in my mind. I don't want to say any spoilers ;)

Another point: why are the Frisii shown within the Celtic cultural sphere? Maybe I missed something while reading the TL in one sitting... but the Frisii were firmly Germanic. In the period of TTL, the Frisii were situated a bit more northerly than on your map, at the southwestern border of the germanic cultural area. Pretty much Northwest Germany -- Northeast Netherlands. See this map (which is somewhat inaccurate, but gets you the idea): https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Pre_Migration_Age_Germanic.png The westernmost end of the dark red area is where you'd find the (proto-)Frisii at the point you TL is in now.

You are right. I knew that they were German when i wrote about the first expedition over there, but when i made the map-story of Loukios expedition i forgot all about it. Never the less its a minor detail. Anyway, thank you for point it out! I want my maps to accurate as possible.
 
248 BC. Citizenship to Gauls.
248 BC

A number of political proposals had attempted to address the growing discrepancy whereby Hellenised Gauls made a significant contribution to Massaliot League military force, while receiving disproportionately small shares of land and citizenship rights. These efforts came to a head under epicurean stratigos/episcopos Nestor. His reforms granted the Hellenised Gauls, who will serve the military, full citizenship giving them a greater say in the external policy of the Massaliot League( for example, when the league would go to war or how they would divide the plunder). The Massaliot League federal council at first was divided with Palaioi company/party opposite and Dynatoi company/party in favour. In the end, elder Andronikos(an influential council member of Palaoi) mysterious death together with pressure from the Epicurean sect, helped the proposal to pass.
The granting of citizenship to the Hellenised Gauls and the conquered was a vital step in the process of a new identity for the Massaliot League. This step was one of the most effective political tools and political ideas in the history of Massaliot league. Previously Alexander the Great had tried to "mingle" his Greeks with the Persians, Egyptians, Syrians, etc. in order to assimilate the people of the conquered Persian Empire, but after his death this policy was largely ignored by his successors. The idea was to assimilate, to turn a defeated and potentially rebellious enemy (or his sons) into a Hellenised Massaliot League citizen. Instead of having to wait for the unavoidable revolt of a conquered people (a tribe or a city-state) like Sparta and the conquered Helots, Massalia tried to make those under its rule feel that they had a stake in the system.
  • New road connects Atalanti with Tolosa/Massalia and Naucratia.
Carthage/Barcid Kingdom
  • A new “civil war” started between Carthage and Barcid Kingdom.
Seleucid empire
  • Antiochus II raises a new army to reconquer Greco-Bactrian Kngdom.
Crete
  • tensions broke up between new Spartan settlers and local population.
 
I feel sorry for the Gallic women, Hellenes their wives kept locked up, but something would be necessary to have hetaera not frail at the time education. Although it was-it would be interesting to hear about hetaera with Ligurian origin.
I'm still here is something to think about - the Germans (as the Scythians in our history) are to be great lovers of wine, which is bought from the colonists.:)
 
I feel sorry for the Gallic women, Hellenes their wives kept locked up, but something would be necessary to have hetaera not frail at the time education. Although it was-it would be interesting to hear about hetaera with Ligurian origin.
I'm still here is something to think about - the Germans (as the Scythians in our history) are to be great lovers of wine, which is bought from the colonists.:)
The Spartans don't do that,so it's fair to say that not every Greek society does that,I also don't think Greeks of lower classes are capable of keeping their women locked up and not have them help work.Perhaps the Massaliots are more liberal in regards to that because they have adapted Gallic traditions.I honestly don't think that the Massaliot League,as a settler state is capable of having the luxury of having their women not tend to the fields or even defend themselves.
 
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The Spartans don't do that,so it's fair to say that not every Greek society does that,I also don't think Greeks of lower classes are capable of keeping their women locked up and not have them help work.Perhaps the Massaliots are more liberal in regards to that because they have adapted Gallic traditions.I honestly don't think that the Massaliot League,as a settler state is capable of having the luxury of having their women not tend to the fields or even defend themselves.

The Spartans were in this respect is very archaic.
I'm more worried about the divorce procedure, and the possibility of inheritance through the female line (here the clash of opposing traditions).
 
Given most of the population are Hellenised Celts not Greeks I don't think locking your women away is going to take root. The league by definition will have taken a celtic twist and strong female leaders are too embedded in the celtic mindset.It was in any case a high class only thing in Greece ( substance farmers cannot afford to do without half the workforce ) ,
 
Given most of the population are Hellenised Celts not Greeks I don't think locking your women away is going to take root. The league by definition will have taken a celtic twist and strong female leaders are too embedded in the celtic mindset.It was in any case a high class only thing in Greece ( substance farmers cannot afford to do without half the workforce ) ,

The population is more or less 50-50 at the moment. But yes Celtic influence is getting bigger and bigger. Epona temple was build in liberal (for Greek standards) Massalia several years ago. About women rights epicurism helps also a lot. Plus since few years now, several Druids(man and woman) are epicureans and help spreading this new culture blend all over Gaul. Any suggestions about the blend of Greek philosophy with Druid traditions?
 
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The population is more or less 50-50 at the moment. But yes Celtic influence is getting bigger and bigger. Epona temple was build in liberal (for Greek standards) Massalia several years ago. About women rights epicurism helps also a lot. Plus since few years now, several Druids(man and woman) are epicureans and help spreading this new culture blend all over Gaul. Any suggestions about the blend of Greek philosophy with Druid traditions?
As for the Druids and philosophers - Druids believe in the transmigration of souls, as well as the Pythagoreans. More they have in common with some philosophers of the ban on entry (though he may redistribute it and students). Epicureanism raspostranen if it is not among the druids (for the time they are almost atheist). In any case, the druids have not once or twice to change his views.
As for women .... Maybe. But the development of urban civilization suggests otherwise. After all, the Spartans and Homer shows that the Hellenes are not always so badly treated their wives.
 

Artaxerxes

Banned
If your struggling for ideas for Celtic culture you can do worse than look at the Hindu caste period of the same period, a lot of parallels between the cultures

Worth noting as well Druids weren't entirely priests, they were basically the learned class, poets, doctors, priests.
 
As for the Druids and philosophers - Druids believe in the transmigration of souls, as well as the Pythagoreans. More they have in common with some philosophers of the ban on entry (though he may redistribute it and students). Epicureanism raspostranen if it is not among the druids (for the time they are almost atheist). In any case, the druids have not once or twice to change his views.

As Artaxerxes all ready mentioned, Druids were not all the times priests but a more all around elite/educated class. So i find it plausible for some Hellenised Gauls, from Druid families( Gaul upper class?) to evolve to new types of “Druids”.

Epicureanism a dominant political/social power in Massaliot League was open to the Gauls. That offer to Hellinised Gauls the best opportunity to rise in status and influence within the League.
 
So what it looks like is that the cultural transfer is a lot less one-sided than everything the author has shown rather than told so far implies. We've been shown a bunch of Greek named people, largely immigrants from other city-states, being responsible for stuff.

I've been applying an analogy of early modern European mentalities expanding over the world to create the Atlantic meta-culture, if you know what I mean. Greek chauvinism in the Hellenistic period seems to largely work the way European/"Christendom" chauvinism worked in early modern times. You have your cosmopolitan early explorers, of the Marco Polo type, such as Pytheas, who I presume achieved success in the "wild" northlands by astutely blending in with the people he found up there, Celts and Germans, learning their languages, paying for passage on their ships, and paying attention to what he had to learn. Much as Marco Polo at one point was a Yuan Dynasty official of sorts in China. But then when they get out en masse there would be (were Massaliote society as analogous to Christian Europe as I feared) a certain arrogance. Magellan for instance, despite having lost a large number of his crew crossing the Pacific blindly, assumed the heathen "Filipinos," as his patron country would come to call them, would be awed by his amazing European tech and general virtues and take him for a god. Instead angry natives killed off him and much of his remaining crew; just one ship made it home out of 5 that set out to circumnavigate the globe. After that, it fluctuated--the Portuguese had limited manpower and learned to be more astute in securing their bases; the Dutch would cynically do anything that seemed expedient--kowtow to the Tokugawa shoguns but commit genocide in the spice islands of Indonesia to secure their monopoly. The various powers contending for India would gradually learn to play local politics, but even after getting the upper hand in India around 1800 the East India company men would tend to blend in to local high society--until the degree of contact rose to the level that they started importing their wives and children to reside in the subcontinent, at which point suddenly the British held themselves as a caste apart and above and began to despise the culture their predecessors navigated in cheerfully enough. In North America we have the sketch of two approaches; English heavy, intense settlement that predictably provoked considerable resentment among native peoples--but even those who decided to hew to European ways and Christianize would be so decimated by plague and general environmental disruption the noisy British mode of settlement caused (Alexis de Tocqueville, though lacking insight into the specific aspect of epidemiology, has some acerbic things to say about the wave of disruption among the wildlife preceding the front line of Anglo settlements by some hundred miles) that they were simply brushed aside--after sufficient contact that is--and the survivors who diligently assimilated were simply absorbed with their heritage scarcely acknowledged except for purposes of discrimination against them. Versus the French model, where due to royal policy to not risk using heterodox Protestants and rely solely on Catholics who however were not particularly keen to emigrate, relied on small numbers of ethnic French people to diffuse among the Native peoples, and recruit them as allies and trading partners, meaning French force was leveraged considerably but also diffused, casting a thin but wide net over vast continental reaches. In early days France held an advantage in having a lot of force to bring to bear on the initially small English colonies, but as these survived and grew the balance of force tipped over to make them unstoppable.

OTL, Hellenistic ability to form some sort of hybrid, composite society with various non-Hellenes seems to boil down, at least to my perhaps unnuanced eye, as being a matter of enlightened policy by a few tyrants, such as Alexander himself or the Ptolemies. But even then, the form it took was a matter of strategically settling some Hellenic city-states with privileged populations to set against a parallel structure of native hierarchies, and like the later form of the British East India Company/Raj civil service, the Greeks tended to hold themselves apart and consider themselves somewhat above any natives, no matter how exalted. And the best compliment any Hellene would pay any non-Hellene was to remark how very Hellenized they had become. In certain forms non-Hellenic influences did spread--notably new religions, for both the Greeks and the Romans, in their days of ascendency, had long tired of their ancient traditional faiths and become Seekers for something new and more cosmopolitan. But this hardly meant a desire to be assimilated to non-Hellenes in a fused hybrid block! It meant Hellenizing everything and hoping (if one were generous) the aliens they lived among would drop their traditional ways and become fully Hellenized themselves.

In this respect, I'd say that Hellenistic culture was closely analogous to the attitudes of modern European peoples who spanned a spectrum from a haughty intent to exploit and remain on top of a heap of manifestly and eternally inferior "natives" to the more "enlightened" stance that these benighted people also might become truly civilized and therefore equal someday in the future. In 1800, this attitude might do among stay-at-home Europeans and folk such as the American frontiersmen or Afrikaner Voortrekkers (mainly veering to the former attitude with more or less apologies toward the "noble savagery" that must perish along with the savages bearing it) but it would hardly profit an ambitious merchant-adventurer in India or China--but 100 years ago the third option of respecting and admiring aspects of foreign civilizations was largely gone and insofar as it remained at all, a wistful and romantic position at best.

The difference was that despite its virtues and advanced (seeming to us anyway, being largely derived from their foundations) characteristics, the Hellenes were not in fact in such an overwhelmingly powerful position as Europeans were circa 1900, and in general they eventually wound up getting absorbed one way or another--as the Hellenistic dynasties fell, the only ones not absorbed into non-Hellenic societies with relatively little trace were the ones who succumbed to the strongly Hellenized but proudly distinct Romans. Gradually Rome itself was Hellenized, in the east anyway, to the point of speaking Greek, but this process took hundreds of years and happened in part via general Christianization. This now-domininant seeker religion was indeed able to gradually dissolve and fuse Hellenic and other cultures into a hybrid, so that when Egypt and Palestine submitted to Islamic Arab invasion the latter did not have separate Greeks and Egyptians to deal with, or anyway Islamization completed what Christianity had started and fused them into various Arabized peoples at last. And in the remaining Greek regions, a fused Greek-speaking Roman identity evolved.

But on the timescale of this TL, OTL history gives us little hope to expect a more New France sort of Hellenization of Gaul. One would expect more of a New England sort of model, except that unlike in the New World, the arrogant invading culture does not have a discriminating arsenal of epidemics to thin out the Gaullish herd and reduce the remainder to historical footnotes (in official histories that is--in reality Native peoples tend to actually survive in hybridized but distinct form far more than they are acknowledged to). This is why I have been nervously wringing my hands, hoping for evidence that the Massaliote League is something new under the sun--a bunch of Hellenes who are interested in mixing and matching with their "host" peoples. Reason being that these "hosts" have the numbers, despite the heavy flow of immigration we've seen ATL encouraged, and the sort of mediocre to poor relations people like the English Puritan colonists had with the New England regional native peoples would be a formula for much more successful versions of something like King Phillip's War, even if the Celts have no "French" analog to help them. And they do--the Carthaginians!

If this weren't a TL dedicated to Massaliote victory, I'd be cheering Carthage myself for superior ethics.

However that depends on whether my hitherto jaundiced view of what the Massaliote League is and what its Hellenes are up to should be as dark as it has been. Hitherto, most of the "evidence," what is shown happening as opposed to simply claimed, looks pretty darn Puritan-style. We hear about Gauls mustered anonymously into Hellene-led armies, but we don't hear the names of Gaulish towns that grow alongside Greek city-states in south Gaul--maybe because Gauls aren't as civic-minded and more likely to disperse into the countryside in smaller villages and independent freeholds. But anyway, Gaulish regions where the Gauls still predominate and Greeks are simply welcome guests just as Gauls are guests in Greek city states should, in a more optimistic view of the true fusion of two ways, exist and, presuming an evolving fusion between the peoples, be just as committed to Massaliote collective success and therefore its more ambitious enterprises as the city-states are. Greeks should appreciate that Gauls who remain distinct, though adopting many Hellenic ways at least as polite manners when dealing with Hellenes, bring special strengths to their League. There should be generals who are clearly Gaulish in origin, and traders, and philosophers at the Museaion, and so forth.

This sort of fusion might well cost them something in dealing with other Hellenes, perhaps make them look half-barbaric, as American frontiersmen were regarded as such by civilized Europeans of the 19th century. Therefore the tales we've been hearing of Hellenic cities transplanted wholesale into Massaliote land sound some alarms to me--one expects some friction and conflict in assimilating these more normal Hellenes, not to mention concerns Gauls might have about just which lands might be "emptied" of (other, one hopes--can one be sure?) Gauls to make room for them.

The nature of Gaulish society before the Greeks came along suggests to me that they might be cheerful enough if it is some loser rival tribe that suffers, as we have seen describes, ethnic cleansing in favor of Greek immigrants. But only if they have some confidence that they are in a different category.

To return to my Modern Europe analogy, suppose that the Native peoples of North America had not in fact been vulnerable to Eurasian plagues (any more than Eurasian derived peoples were I mean) and had a technology level below but much closer to Early Modern Europeans--say roughly High Middle Ages, no gunpowder but lots of steel and horses. And the Europeans attempted to settle among them due to the drives of population pressure plus developing aspects of early capitalism. They'd have to combine something of both the French and English approaches I'd think. Ruthless attempts to divide and rule might open up space in the form of devastating conquest and enserfment of loser groups, but only with the alliance of rival Native groups who could be expected to gradually, largely on their own terms, assimilate useful or interesting aspects of European civilization, and acquire what the Europeans regarded as cultivation, but also set the general terms of contact to a much greater degree than seen OTL in aggressive settler colonies. The settlers would not be nearly as able to shove the natives aside, and the best surviving colonies would be those who learned to make long-term, lasting alliances with Native peoples who would be drawn into their orbit, but only by letting themselves in turn be drawn into Native orbits.

This is the sort of fusion I've been hoping to find evidence of, and I fear largely looking in vain. I'm still hung up on the whole Bordeaux thing you see, which is much more like what English might do than French in North America. On the lack of Celtic names, on the lack of attribution to useful innovations to Celtic influence, on the lack of mention of strongly Gaulish though loyal districts in the Massilote heartland, etc etc.

So it is a bit heartening to be told, "don't worry, the Gauls are fine." But the only evidence one sees is that the devastating social wars I'd fear would result if the Massaliotes are in fact a one-sided Hellenization project--which the overwhelming number of specific citations of people and events hitherto seems to support--have not in fact taken place yet.

A hybridized Helleno-Gaulic Massaliote region would have some limitations that have not been mentioned yet (such as being somewhat alien and off-putting to "purer" Hellenes, which should have come into play by now) but also some big advantages--the author seems to be attributing these advantages to the League without as it were paying dues for them by acknowledging the likely side effects nor demonstrating the actual presence of Gauls in Massaliote high society--not even as thoroughly Hellenized model products of a French-style (19th century French I mean here) mission civilitrice transformation, let alone showing us Gauls who proudly retain Gaulish cultural traits suitably modified but definitely not Hellenic, nor Greeks who are adopting distinctly Gaulish ways.

My vision need not be the author's of course! The author has done impressive work and it is a lot of fun. I just suggest that a decision needs to be made, by the peoples in the timeline, which path they are taking, and logical consequences of this path have to be acknowledged. If the League is mainly Hellenizing in the way the Roman conquest of Gaul was Latinizing, then we have to have some serious conflict going on now, in which the Carthaginians have opportunities they appear to be denied in the TL. If this implies that the Gaulification of the League's Hellenes and the partnership of Gauls in the League I was hoping to see is happening--we should see this happen, and it should have some bearing on the experience of immigrant Hellenes, and on the premise that the League is a natural ally of Epiros and Egypt. The Ptolemies probably could appreciate what the League people are doing and accommodate it--though they will be smugly proud of how their Hellenes don't get barbarized and look down on the half-wild Greeks of Gaul; Pyrrhus presumably was used to rag-tag alliances and won't mind much either though again he probably gets a boost in pride in reflecting that whatever those stuck-up Greeks might think, his Epiriotes and Macedonians are anyway less bumpkinish than these half-Gaulish Massaliotes. The latter I think would get the last laugh, but it won't perhaps be evident for some centuries. At this point in the narrative would be when the long-term benefits of the truly hybridizing approach I wish to see happening would start to prevail over the liabilities. I bet if you go back and look over some of the military innovations of the Massliotes, at least some of them make sense as Gaulish ideas in origin, and some might rely in execution on cultural talents the Gauls bring to the table. Solid Gaulish loyalty and partnership are huge assets in dealing not only with the rivalry with Carthage in the northlands, but with the Cisalpine Gauls, and these people can be gateways in turn to yet more Celtic peoples who live in what is today Slovenia, Serbia, Austria and Hungary.

It may be easier to retcon what has been told so far than I think; the author has chosen to take a rather distant and broad-brush perspective. It is indeed the nature of Hellenistic civilization to glorify itself, just as my hypothetical ATL composite New England would almost certainly represent itself as basically English with a certain Native flavor, and one would have to go to the Native counties to get the story in their languages, from their perspective--the official schoolbook history published 200 years later would be in some English dialect and very settler-centric. Just so, a retrospective ATL history written in "modern" times might be in some Greek dialect (albeit one with loads of Celtic loanwords and other influences) and simply choose to focus on a top-down view from Massalia itself, subsuming perfectly present and active Gaulish actors.

Or the author can face the consequences of a more strongly Hellenistic arrogance that might in the long run tend to erase traces of stronger earlier Gaulish influence--but that I think would call for a dark age of Social Wars, a showdown. And about now would be the time for them to start I'd think, before the League society can resume its manifest destiny on harsher terms than I'd like to see.

Harsher terms maybe. But anyway it remains a fascinating what -if and I encourage it to go on on any terms. Just please, fill in a few more blanks, and don't try to have things both ways for free! It makes it more real if these decisions are made. You did very well with the Triple Alliance and Rome and Carthage (except for Carthage's advantages in the hinterlands being shortchanged I feel) and I'd just like to see more of that sort of gritty commitment to facing consequences of decisions.
 
I just finished reading through all of this. I think I'm gonna borrow the idea with Wikipedia links to people and perhaps the 'by place' listing - they do wonders for the readability of updates. Maps are awesome too.

I'm glad to see Ptolemaic Egypt doing well and it's a really fascinating read. Hellenized Gauls? More please!
 
I just finished reading through all of this. I think I'm gonna borrow the idea with Wikipedia links to people and perhaps the 'by place' listing - they do wonders for the readability of updates. Maps are awesome too.

Thank you for your kind words @Zireael ! I would love to see more ATL use my wiki style approach. They really help the readability.

I'm glad to see Ptolemaic Egypt doing well and it's a really fascinating read. Hellenized Gauls? More please!

Yes sir! ;)
 
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