I am working on North Sea
About monuments, a wonder of the world in Massalia could be great. Any monuments suggestions?
The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline
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About monuments, a wonder of the world in Massalia could be great. Any monuments suggestions?
I am working on North Sea
About monuments, a wonder of the world in Massalia could be great. Any monuments suggestions?
Hmm....which God/Goddess do they worship the most?
A temple like the Temple of Artemis, or like the Statue of Zeus at Olympia can be good.
What about some form of elaborate defensive structure around Massalia?Massalia is dangerously close to the front.
Being close to the front depends on what happens in Cisalpine Gaul, I'd think.
To be sure, as a port city, it is on the "front" for any power that can make a strong fleet to attack with.
What's all this talk of "England," BTW? The OTL migrations that led to former Britain having a big region on it called "Angle-Land" are a good 600 years in the future, and I doubt the ancestors of the Angles and Saxons are even on the North Sea shore yet, they are probably in Scandinavia at this time. That big island across from Gaul is called Britain, or rather since that is the Roman rendering of it, whatever Pytheas referred to it as. Quoting Wikipedia on the subject of that explorer, "According to Strabo, Pytheas referred to Britain as Bretannikē, which is treated a feminine noun." Presumably he met mainly with "P-Celts" such as the Britons known later as Welsh, and not with "Q-celts" such as Irish or Picts. In P-Celtic British languages the isle of Britain would be something like modern Welsh "Ynys Prydein."
I don't know if we have any sources at all on what the Carthaginians called the island or its peoples.
By the way, the treaty mandate that they cease their Atlantic trade activities is a hell of a sweeping and high-handed demand! I wonder how well Carthage will comply? Doing so means folding up their tents in the north and cutting their former trade partners off for no local reason. How exactly is the Alliance to enforce it anyway?
I suppose the mechanism is, the Massaloite sponsored traders will react violently to any Carthaginian activity they observe in the north, and cite the treaty in any negotiations.
But the flip side of it is, the Carthaginians have been cultivating trade relations with the various northern peoples for a long time, and their partners are familiar with them and liable to favor them over the Greek upstarts.
Time and again I've attempted to explain my misgivings at the apparent one-sidedness of the Hellenization of Massaliote south Gaul. I wrote at some length something using a possible scenario for the expansion of Massalian power into Cisalpine Gaul, in the context of the recent war. But I didn't get it finished in time and later posts have mooted its direct relevance, so it lies unposted.
It is a valid choice of the author to assume that the Hellenes of the League territory will assume that culture and civilization equal Greek culture and civilization, and disdain to learn from and adapt to the Celts within their network who have chosen, whether out of attraction or fear, to associate with them rather than ally against them. What I'm trying to say is, that the more the Hellenization of Gauls is a matter of fear, coercion and subordination, the harder it will be for the League to achieve the Manifest Destiny many of us readers and I suppose the author are eager to see--that is, the spread of Massalian hegemony north into Gaul, in time assimilating it and much of Britain as well. And if one looks at the broader "Celtic" zone as indicated on a recent map, yet other prospects open up. I wondered for instance if, after assimilating Cisalpine Gaul, which seems to be coeval with the Po River valley, they might leap across the north tip of the Adriatic into Istria, found some city (or take over one) at or near Trieste, and then maps seem to indicate a pass nearby where they could enter the Danube valley in OTL Austria and Hungary. Well by gosh, it seems this zone is Celtic too at this date!
It sure would be interesting. But we have seen very little sign of the Hellenes of the League adapting to the local Celts they have lived among for a century or more; little sign that allied Celtic tribes enjoy status and influence in the leading councils of the League. If in fact the League were an alliance of Celts and Greeks, then their ability to move rapidly into this zone, and win over the allegiance of northern Celts accustomed hitherto to trading with Carthage, and assimilate Cisalpine Gaul and all that would be eased.
If instead, as it seems to me to be the case thus far, they carry with them an overbearing Hellenic chauvinism that assumes Celts are barbarians to be led like children to actual civilization, and have no Celts among their leaders to demonstrate the advantage of association to more independent other Celts...then the Greeks can expect only tough sledding. The process can take the form of subordination and assimilation by cultural transformation to a near-purely Greek model, but it must be slower, for they seem likely to sooner or later infuriate the people they hope to profit from. And the large number of Celts who are deep within the League might be persuaded to rise up if they do not feel like first-class citizens, and considering how many references have been made to Celtic soldiers in Massaliote armies, a Social War of that type might be the undoing of the whole League.
I keep thinking back on the decision to bypass the established Gaulish town of Burdigala and instead establish an inferior rival port town to its south, a decision that makes sense only if the Massaliote plan is to steal the Gaulish town's trade. If they had learned lessons enabling them to interface with rather than bypass established Gaulish communities, setting up shop in Burdigala instead would have been the wisest move; doing this economically irrational thing instead suggests hostility to me, and I think the Gauls will view it that way too.
To be sure, as a port city, it is on the "front" for any power that can make a strong fleet to attack with.
What's all this talk of "England," BTW? The OTL migrations that led to former Britain having a big region on it called "Angle-Land" are a good 600 years in the future, and I doubt the ancestors of the Angles and Saxons are even on the North Sea shore yet, they are probably in Scandinavia at this time. That big island across from Gaul is called Britain, or rather since that is the Roman rendering of it, whatever Pytheas referred to it as. Quoting Wikipedia on the subject of that explorer, "According to Strabo, Pytheas referred to Britain as Bretannikē, which is treated a feminine noun." Presumably he met mainly with "P-Celts" such as the Britons known later as Welsh, and not with "Q-celts" such as Irish or Picts. In P-Celtic British languages the isle of Britain would be something like modern Welsh "Ynys Prydein."
I don't know if we have any sources at all on what the Carthaginians called the island or its peoples.
By the way, the treaty mandate that they cease their Atlantic trade activities is a hell of a sweeping and high-handed demand! I wonder how well Carthage will comply? Doing so means folding up their tents in the north and cutting their former trade partners off for no local reason. How exactly is the Alliance to enforce it anyway?
I suppose the mechanism is, the Massaloite sponsored traders will react violently to any Carthaginian activity they observe in the north, and cite the treaty in any negotiations.
But the flip side of it is, the Carthaginians have been cultivating trade relations with the various northern peoples for a long time, and their partners are familiar with them and liable to favor them over the Greek upstarts.
Time and again I've attempted to explain my misgivings at the apparent one-sidedness of the Hellenization of Massaliote south Gaul. I wrote at some length something using a possible scenario for the expansion of Massalian power into Cisalpine Gaul, in the context of the recent war. But I didn't get it finished in time and later posts have mooted its direct relevance, so it lies unposted.
It is a valid choice of the author to assume that the Hellenes of the League territory will assume that culture and civilization equal Greek culture and civilization, and disdain to learn from and adapt to the Celts within their network who have chosen, whether out of attraction or fear, to associate with them rather than ally against them. What I'm trying to say is, that the more the Hellenization of Gauls is a matter of fear, coercion and subordination, the harder it will be for the League to achieve the Manifest Destiny many of us readers and I suppose the author are eager to see--that is, the spread of Massalian hegemony north into Gaul, in time assimilating it and much of Britain as well. And if one looks at the broader "Celtic" zone as indicated on a recent map, yet other prospects open up. I wondered for instance if, after assimilating Cisalpine Gaul, which seems to be coeval with the Po River valley, they might leap across the north tip of the Adriatic into Istria, found some city (or take over one) at or near Trieste, and then maps seem to indicate a pass nearby where they could enter the Danube valley in OTL Austria and Hungary. Well by gosh, it seems this zone is Celtic too at this date!
It sure would be interesting. But we have seen very little sign of the Hellenes of the League adapting to the local Celts they have lived among for a century or more; little sign that allied Celtic tribes enjoy status and influence in the leading councils of the League. If in fact the League were an alliance of Celts and Greeks, then their ability to move rapidly into this zone, and win over the allegiance of northern Celts accustomed hitherto to trading with Carthage, and assimilate Cisalpine Gaul and all that would be eased.
If instead, as it seems to me to be the case thus far, they carry with them an overbearing Hellenic chauvinism that assumes Celts are barbarians to be led like children to actual civilization, and have no Celts among their leaders to demonstrate the advantage of association to more independent other Celts...then the Greeks can expect only tough sledding. The process can take the form of subordination and assimilation by cultural transformation to a near-purely Greek model, but it must be slower, for they seem likely to sooner or later infuriate the people they hope to profit from. And the large number of Celts who are deep within the League might be persuaded to rise up if they do not feel like first-class citizens, and considering how many references have been made to Celtic soldiers in Massaliote armies, a Social War of that type might be the undoing of the whole League.
I keep thinking back on the decision to bypass the established Gaulish town of Burdigala and instead establish an inferior rival port town to its south, a decision that makes sense only if the Massaliote plan is to steal the Gaulish town's trade. If they had learned lessons enabling them to interface with rather than bypass established Gaulish communities, setting up shop in Burdigala instead would have been the wisest move; doing this economically irrational thing instead suggests hostility to me, and I think the Gauls will view it that way too.
Good points. The Massaloite sponsored traders will react violently to any Carthaginian activity they observe in the north and that can lead to a new war.
Hellenic chauvinism is still strong but the younger generations of Gauls in Massaliot lands are deeply Hellenised. Some have also second tier citizenship. But you are right the Greeks must blend more with the local population.
I have two suggestions for an elaborate defensive structure around Massalia,one is a Krek Des Chevalier like Citadel for the city,the other is two sets of walls just like Carcasonne/Constantinople.I do believe the technology of the time warrants the construction of such things,the problem is just whether someone is innovative enough to do it.
I do like that, but I've always felt that trade-based nations would always want to throw money towards that - Massalia might benefit more from its own "Grand Canal", to connect the Rhone with the Rhine. Whilst not an imminent possibility due to territorial claims (and maybe the tech), but having that canal built would transform Europe. Alternatively, a canal that allows shipping high into the Alps to Geneva would also be beneficial, but not as impressive - or a Venice-style Canal.
Going back to the fortifications, there is the large hill Basilique Notre Dame de la Garde is on in Marseilles that was meant to be an old fort, turning that into a might citadel would be epic (especially if it formed part of a Sea-Wall, a-la Constantinople) - or (and this is my personal favorite idea), turn Ile Ratonneau and Ils du Frioul into a colossal naval and shipping port. Fortified warehouses, with naval defenses, providing upwards of 6km of piers and quays, with a natural water passage between that can either be blocked by a causeway, or bridged by something like the Alacantra Bridge (at least in scale). Finish it off with a warning tower at Ile du Planier, and you'd have a true marvel. If you really wanted to show off, you can always do both!
As Darthfanta said before, Massalia is becoming both a continental power and a thalassocracy so its not just a trade based nation anymore. So different perspective for Massalia from now on?
Great idea.
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A minor player seems fine maybe a revolution can take place and a full democracy without the aristocracy and consuls thing or a new monarchy (but quite unlikely because the romans hate kingship) maybe they centralize and some successful rebelions against them liberate the foreign peoples under their control (etruscans celts umbrians etc) i would love a more diversified and free italy
maybe the allies can reach into compromisse because the partition of sicily seems odd to me maybe syracuse should be given it all except to citites one for Massalia to conduct trade and the other to the ptolemies as a trade and naval outpost
pyrrhus maybe could try and conquer more of alexander the great's former lands or create an empire of his own
and what about antigonos ii gonatas's son Demetrios maybe you could make him a mercenary and maybe go to crete or some place relatibely far from Macedon to start a new life it would be awesome!
maybe the allies can reach into compromisse because the partition of sicily seems odd to me maybe syracuse should be given it all except to citites one for Massalia to conduct trade and the other to the ptolemies as a trade and naval outpost
pyrrhus maybe could try and conquer more of alexander the great's former lands or create an empire of his own
and what about antigonos ii gonatas's son Demetrios maybe you could make him a mercenary and maybe go to crete or some place relatibely far from Macedon to start a new life it would be awesome!
256 BC. Hermachus Epicurean version. Proto- crossbow.
256 BC
Big celebrations for ten days were held in Massalia and other cities for the great victory. A new big temple of Nike builded to Massalia to celebrate the big victory of Massaliot League. Famous poet Theocritus writes a new song praising strategos Alkaios.
Hermarchus Epicurean version grew more and more in popularity. The cult of Hermarchus was already fairly cosmopolitan by Massaliot League standards, including women,Gauls and slaves. The dynatoi company was really influenced by it and became a protector of the Epicurean ideas. With the help of Dynatoi, hundreds of small branches of the cult were builded all over Massaliot League lands to spread the ideas of Epicureanism. The local druids were also heavily influenced by this cult and helped spread its ideas in the North Gaul.
Hermolaos a epicurean siege engineer, student of Dionysius of Alexandria(Head of the arsenal of Massalia), who was the head of the Massaliot artillery in the battle of Zama, came up with a new idea about the Massaliot artillery. A new type of gastraphete, the cheirogastraphete(crossbow) was developed.
Sparta
Cleomenes III oldest son of Cleonymus and new king of Sparta tried to rehabilitate the military strength of Sparta by social reforms, including:
Seleucid empire
Carthage
Ptolemaic empire
Big celebrations for ten days were held in Massalia and other cities for the great victory. A new big temple of Nike builded to Massalia to celebrate the big victory of Massaliot League. Famous poet Theocritus writes a new song praising strategos Alkaios.
Hermarchus Epicurean version grew more and more in popularity. The cult of Hermarchus was already fairly cosmopolitan by Massaliot League standards, including women,Gauls and slaves. The dynatoi company was really influenced by it and became a protector of the Epicurean ideas. With the help of Dynatoi, hundreds of small branches of the cult were builded all over Massaliot League lands to spread the ideas of Epicureanism. The local druids were also heavily influenced by this cult and helped spread its ideas in the North Gaul.
Hermolaos a epicurean siege engineer, student of Dionysius of Alexandria(Head of the arsenal of Massalia), who was the head of the Massaliot artillery in the battle of Zama, came up with a new idea about the Massaliot artillery. A new type of gastraphete, the cheirogastraphete(crossbow) was developed.
Sparta
Cleomenes III oldest son of Cleonymus and new king of Sparta tried to rehabilitate the military strength of Sparta by social reforms, including:
- Redistribution of lands
- Giving citizenship to a number of provincial inhabitants ("perioikoi") in order to make them eligible for army service
- With money from the tributes paid by Rome, Cleomenes III buys two thousands Thessalian horses and builds ten quinqueremes
Seleucid empire
- Diodotus I, Seleucid satrap of Bactria, rebels against Antiochus II and becomes the founder of the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom.
Carthage
- The mercenaries of Carthage submit a demand to Hamilcar for payment of their contracts. Hamilcar attempts, unsuccessfully, to convince the mercenaries to accept smaller payments due to Carthage's impoverished post-war conditions. Negotiations break down. The mercenaries take up arms, march on Zama occupy it, and threaten Carthage directly. Gesco is sent to negotiate with the mercenaries at Zama.
Ptolemaic empire
- Ptolemy II impressed by Massaliot League artillery commission his engineers to build new siege engines for the new artillery divisions of the Ptolemaic army.
- A small rebellion by Etruscans, is crashed by the Romans.
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Maybe a bigger rebellion by the etruscans can succeed.
I play a lot of rome 2 total war and in the mod divide et impera some greek factions get gastraphetes to recruit at mid game and i (using clever tactics and money storaging) could recruit them early game with syracuse at the time of the 2nd punic war. I trained five divisions of 131 gastraphetes and backed up by some phalangites and cavalry i turned on the romans and wrecked the sh*t out of them i conquered Sicily and Magna Graecia in an instant they are awesome!
I play a lot of rome 2 total war and in the mod divide et impera some greek factions get gastraphetes to recruit at mid game and i (using clever tactics and money storaging) could recruit them early game with syracuse at the time of the 2nd punic war. I trained five divisions of 131 gastraphetes and backed up by some phalangites and cavalry i turned on the romans and wrecked the sh*t out of them i conquered Sicily and Magna Graecia in an instant they are awesome!
A Constantinople type of walls is more possible I think. Syracuse had great fortifications also during that era.
Maybe a noble and illustrous figure in Etruria can lead the next rebellion to success. Pyrrhus must be already in his 50's and must want to leave a good legacy behind so after a few years consolidating (soem of those years already passed) he could invade and try to make his own empire worthy of being a successor state of Alexander's empire. Maybe in Asia Minor, or up to the Danube frontier, or even better Illyria!
Also Syracuse had great walls (almost impregnable) because each tyrant wanted to surpass the former one so they built these ellaborate structures (fortifications, public buildings) to increase their prestige
Also Syracuse had great walls (almost impregnable) because each tyrant wanted to surpass the former one so they built these ellaborate structures (fortifications, public buildings) to increase their prestige
But at the same time though,would it be seen as a wonder?There's innovation for sure,but I think a massive citadel's probably more in line with what people would think as a wonder.I also think that the aesthetics of the structure is also counted towards what people would classify as a wonder.
I think, and vote for the same. A wall is a wall. A massive citadel, that what's get you into the history books for all time.