Yes! That was typical of Pyrrhus in OTL also. Great general but in geopolitics etc not the sharpest one...
The Massaliot league. A Hellenistic period Massalia Timeline
- Thread starter Sersor
- Start date
Yes! That was typical of Pyrrhus in OTL also. Great general but in geopolitics etc not the sharpest one...
I'd put my money on the Tri-Alliance tbh.
Carthage seems to be a bit thick, as now their trade-based economy is going to be trading with... who exactly? The League can intercept all trade going east, and the Massalian Atlantic fleet can interfere with their British operations. Cue a huge loss in revenue - which with their mercenary economy is dangerous. They need to win quickly, or dominate the entirety of the Med. - That isn't fun.
The Romans, are basically victims in this, I can't see this going well unless they can get the Cisalpine Gauls to help them, at least letting them march through.
The League has a similar problem to Carthage, short of the merc army. Their trade economy is going to suffer, unless their fleet, alongside the Egyptian and Greek fleets can force Carthage back into port. At which point half the war is one anyway.
It will be difficult to fight a land-only war from Egypt to Carthage, but I'd still gamble on Egypt. They can probably out-bid Carthage for mercs, and bring Elephants to bear. They'll benefit if they can control naval resupply routes, but a lighter army could still distract Carthaginian forces.
Epirus better hope they've improved since last time. Not taking Syracuse first was a bad move, but if they can be enticed to fight in Sicily, then we have a new big player in the C.Med. I'd be surprised if they don't sort themselves out and invade the rest of Sicily over as soon as Roman-Carthaginian troops leave. The Carthaginians might return, but the Romans will be having a much more existential war here.
But really - its the naval war that counts, lets hope the Massalian Venemeres can make a good show in this war. Equip them with a decent ram, and there could be some very one-sided engagements, plus the freedom of movement they'll have in the Med compared to (AFAIK) Carthaginian or Roman navies? Phwoar.
Predicted Resolution :
1) Carthage loses much of their fleet, and their Sicilian Holdings, captured by Syracuse, Epirus, or the League. May be forced to abandon their cities in the Iberian interior.
2) Ditto for Rome. Rome also loses parts of S.Italy to Epirus, and has issues in Etruria.
3) Egypt doesn't gain any territory, but instead vast tributes, and perhaps some Saharan vassals.
4) Epirus, as stated, gets Magna Grecia, and treasures from sacking Capua. I can't see him successfully sacking Rome - too easy.
5) The League takes over the Atlantic Trade, and takes control of .. Tingis? I don't recall if that was Carthaginian or not, guaranteeing control over the Straits. Perhaps another southern iberian town, I'm hesitant to say they'd go for huge territorial gains in Iberia, not whilst their current territory isn't the most populated.
Carthage seems to be a bit thick, as now their trade-based economy is going to be trading with... who exactly? The League can intercept all trade going east, and the Massalian Atlantic fleet can interfere with their British operations. Cue a huge loss in revenue - which with their mercenary economy is dangerous. They need to win quickly, or dominate the entirety of the Med. - That isn't fun.
The Romans, are basically victims in this, I can't see this going well unless they can get the Cisalpine Gauls to help them, at least letting them march through.
The League has a similar problem to Carthage, short of the merc army. Their trade economy is going to suffer, unless their fleet, alongside the Egyptian and Greek fleets can force Carthage back into port. At which point half the war is one anyway.
It will be difficult to fight a land-only war from Egypt to Carthage, but I'd still gamble on Egypt. They can probably out-bid Carthage for mercs, and bring Elephants to bear. They'll benefit if they can control naval resupply routes, but a lighter army could still distract Carthaginian forces.
Epirus better hope they've improved since last time. Not taking Syracuse first was a bad move, but if they can be enticed to fight in Sicily, then we have a new big player in the C.Med. I'd be surprised if they don't sort themselves out and invade the rest of Sicily over as soon as Roman-Carthaginian troops leave. The Carthaginians might return, but the Romans will be having a much more existential war here.
But really - its the naval war that counts, lets hope the Massalian Venemeres can make a good show in this war. Equip them with a decent ram, and there could be some very one-sided engagements, plus the freedom of movement they'll have in the Med compared to (AFAIK) Carthaginian or Roman navies? Phwoar.
Predicted Resolution :
1) Carthage loses much of their fleet, and their Sicilian Holdings, captured by Syracuse, Epirus, or the League. May be forced to abandon their cities in the Iberian interior.
2) Ditto for Rome. Rome also loses parts of S.Italy to Epirus, and has issues in Etruria.
3) Egypt doesn't gain any territory, but instead vast tributes, and perhaps some Saharan vassals.
4) Epirus, as stated, gets Magna Grecia, and treasures from sacking Capua. I can't see him successfully sacking Rome - too easy.
5) The League takes over the Atlantic Trade, and takes control of .. Tingis? I don't recall if that was Carthaginian or not, guaranteeing control over the Straits. Perhaps another southern iberian town, I'm hesitant to say they'd go for huge territorial gains in Iberia, not whilst their current territory isn't the most populated.
If they won,Massalia's probably going to get Corsica,the Balearic Isles or Sardinia.Those Carthaginian islands are too close for Massalia to be comfortable with.
Fair point. Better target in this first war. If it is a good victory then all cities on the coast between Massalia and Tarroca (that city being vital) will be a huge benefit, as it grants control/access to the Ebro valley. It may not be the rich farmlands of S.Gaul, but if the Iberians can be Hellenised, then that'll certainly be good news.
Yes true. The naval warfare will be really important. About Venemeres you think the Massaliotes will chose it for the Mediterranean sea? They have octeres etc.
Yeap this places are really important for Massaliot League.Iberia also i guess
Yes Ptolemaic Egypt is the wealthier Nation at the moment. Carthage and Massalia are probably around at the same level.
Partially, as the ability to move away from the coasts more readily than typical Mediterranean ships (and their stated near invulnerability to ramming) is a huge advantage. It may not have been done YET - but it certainly may in the future.
Oh wow, I shouldn't be surprised, but I still am, that is one massive jump in wealth. Got to love those gold mines! I wonder if the Massalians will get another boost if they find Las Médulas
Commando Howiezter
Banned
What is Carthage doing!?
This way they are guaranteed to be screwed, going against Massalia (equal match), Egypt (superior), and Epirus (equal match also)?? They may be rich, but having to fight two fronts instead of only one, while their goverment may not put their entire effort into the war as they didn't OTL.
IMO they should have jumped on the Romans to secure Sicily......
And Rome isn't the invincible juggernaut that never gives up that people think they are, nor do they have endless numbers of men to throw at the Greeks.....
But I want the Romans defeated, so go Greeks!
This way they are guaranteed to be screwed, going against Massalia (equal match), Egypt (superior), and Epirus (equal match also)?? They may be rich, but having to fight two fronts instead of only one, while their goverment may not put their entire effort into the war as they didn't OTL.
IMO they should have jumped on the Romans to secure Sicily......
And Rome isn't the invincible juggernaut that never gives up that people think they are, nor do they have endless numbers of men to throw at the Greeks.....
But I want the Romans defeated, so go Greeks!
It was a difficult decision for Carthage. But i think this was the best move for them. How can they trust Pyrrhus and Massalia from not attacking them?
Rome is quite strong but ofc not invincible. I will use her numbers from 1st Punic war.
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Commando Howiezter
Banned
But if they had jumped on Rome they could have gotten Sicily and got a better position, but now what do they have to gain by helping Rome? Do they expect to beat Egypt?.....
Buy your TL, your way.
Cool, can't wait.
Given the circumstances,it's indeed the wisest of choice for the Carthaginians.If Rome gets crushed,this will drastically alter the balance of power.But if they had jumped on Rome they could have gotten Sicily and got a better position, but now what do they have to gain by helping Rome? Do they expect to beat Egypt?.....
Buy your TL, your way.
Cool, can't wait.
your TL, your way.
My timeline, but suggestions and questions here, helps a lot.
262 BC. Italy war map
262 BC
Pyrrhus and the rest of Triandria forces after the liberation of the Greek Polis in South Italy started to march in the Northwest. The Massaliot League army and fleet meet with the rest of the Greeks near Paestum. Another tagma and five thousands hellenised Gauls together with ten quinqueremes and twenty new Venemeres was send from Massalia to conquer Corsica and Sardinia.
Meanwhile, Carthage had build a mercenary army in Africa, which was shipped to Sicily to secure its holdings and conquerer Syracuse . This army was composed of thirty thousands infantry, three thousands cavalry, and thirty war elephants and partly composed of Ligurians,Celts and Iberians. In past wars on the island of Sicily, Carthage had won by relying on certain fortified strong-points throughout the island, and their plan was to conduct the land war in the same fashion. The mercenary army would operate in the open against the Triandria, while the strongly fortified cities would provide a defensive base from which to operate. A fleet of two hundred warships was going to help the Romans and disturb Greek supply lines. Hero II of Syracuse hearing the news, send emissaries to Triandria alliance seeking assistance against Carthage.
With the arrival of Massaliot League, in a new war council, the leaders of Triandria decided that the majority of the army, under Pyrrhus, to march against Capua and then against Rome. The Rhodian League army and fleet together with Magna Graecia allies will continue to protect Tarantum and the rest of Greek liberated polis and secure the supply lines. The Massaliot League army of twenty thousands was decided to be sent to Sicily to help Syracuse's against Carthage. The main fleet of two hundred sixty warships was decided to be sent to blockade Sicily from Carthaginian ships. Twenty quinqueremes left to patrol Tyrrhenian Sea. The main Triandria army of fifty five thousands marched against Capua to siege it.
The naval battle of Mylae
Aeneas met Hannibal off northern Mylae. The Carthaginians had two hundred and thirty ships( mostly quinqueremes and some triremes) , and the Greeks two hundred and sixty(150 quinqueremes 60 eptares 50 octares). The large cataphract octeres of Massaliot League and Ptolemaic Egypt dominated the naval battle. The Carthaginians were forced to navigate around them and approach the Greeks from behind with minimal success. The Polybolos of the Massaliot League octeres were very successful, and helped the Greeks seize around twenty Carthaginian ships. Once an additional ten of the Carthaginian ships had been hooked or sinked by the Greeks, Hannibal retreated with his surviving ships, leaving Aeneas with a clear victory. Carthage lost around thirty five ships and the Greeks six quinqueremes and two octares.
By place
Seleucid Empire
Pyrrhus and the rest of Triandria forces after the liberation of the Greek Polis in South Italy started to march in the Northwest. The Massaliot League army and fleet meet with the rest of the Greeks near Paestum. Another tagma and five thousands hellenised Gauls together with ten quinqueremes and twenty new Venemeres was send from Massalia to conquer Corsica and Sardinia.
Meanwhile, Carthage had build a mercenary army in Africa, which was shipped to Sicily to secure its holdings and conquerer Syracuse . This army was composed of thirty thousands infantry, three thousands cavalry, and thirty war elephants and partly composed of Ligurians,Celts and Iberians. In past wars on the island of Sicily, Carthage had won by relying on certain fortified strong-points throughout the island, and their plan was to conduct the land war in the same fashion. The mercenary army would operate in the open against the Triandria, while the strongly fortified cities would provide a defensive base from which to operate. A fleet of two hundred warships was going to help the Romans and disturb Greek supply lines. Hero II of Syracuse hearing the news, send emissaries to Triandria alliance seeking assistance against Carthage.
With the arrival of Massaliot League, in a new war council, the leaders of Triandria decided that the majority of the army, under Pyrrhus, to march against Capua and then against Rome. The Rhodian League army and fleet together with Magna Graecia allies will continue to protect Tarantum and the rest of Greek liberated polis and secure the supply lines. The Massaliot League army of twenty thousands was decided to be sent to Sicily to help Syracuse's against Carthage. The main fleet of two hundred sixty warships was decided to be sent to blockade Sicily from Carthaginian ships. Twenty quinqueremes left to patrol Tyrrhenian Sea. The main Triandria army of fifty five thousands marched against Capua to siege it.
- A Roman/allies army of fifty thousands under both consuls marched against Pyrrhus. The consuls were the generals of the Roman army, and with the consuls traveled several legions.
The naval battle of Mylae
Aeneas met Hannibal off northern Mylae. The Carthaginians had two hundred and thirty ships( mostly quinqueremes and some triremes) , and the Greeks two hundred and sixty(150 quinqueremes 60 eptares 50 octares). The large cataphract octeres of Massaliot League and Ptolemaic Egypt dominated the naval battle. The Carthaginians were forced to navigate around them and approach the Greeks from behind with minimal success. The Polybolos of the Massaliot League octeres were very successful, and helped the Greeks seize around twenty Carthaginian ships. Once an additional ten of the Carthaginian ships had been hooked or sinked by the Greeks, Hannibal retreated with his surviving ships, leaving Aeneas with a clear victory. Carthage lost around thirty five ships and the Greeks six quinqueremes and two octares.
By place
Seleucid Empire
- Seleucid king Antiochus I's eldest son Seleucus, who has ruled in the east of the kingdom as viceroy for a number of years, is put to death by his father on the charge of rebellion.
- Antiochus I tries to break the growing power of Pergamum by force of arms. Eumenes I, the new ruler of Pergamum, liberates his city from the overlordship of the Seleucids by defeating the army of Antiochus I near Sardis (the capital of Lydia), and thereby establishing an independent city-state.
- Antiochus I dies and is succeeded by his second son Antiochus II Theos.
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261 BC. The battle of Syracuse and Capua.
261 BC
The battle of Syracuse
In the plain valley near Syracuse, the thirty four thousands Carthaginian army faced the twenty five thousands army of Massaliot League and Syracuse. After two days standing opposite from each other, the fight began one morning after a volley attack from the Greek mounted archers. The Carthage cavalry charged against them and followed them near the Greek camp. The close by, second Greek tagma charge them after a barrage of artillery. The Carthaginian cavalry was exposed in the flanks and the Greek cavalry started to charge them, making retreat and regroup difficult. Fearing to lose most of his cavalry, Hannibal commanded a full scale attack (feeling sure for his superior numbers). When the Carthage army was in artillery range, the Greek cavalry withdraw to the rears, trapping the Carthage cavalry between the tagmata and their infantry. What followed was a massacre. The Carthaginian army center was under heavy artillery attack and the rears under charges from the Greek cavalry and mounted archers. The Carthage army fought ferociously to break the tagmata but after some hours, with the help of heavy artillery rain, the Carthage lines start to root. The battle was over.The highly trained,better equipped,compined arms and professional Massaliot League army was no match for the Carthaginian army. Nineteen thousands Carthage warriors and twenty elephants(mostly by ballistas) where dead and four thousands where sold as slaves. The Greeks had more than four thousands dead and injured. After this devastate loss the Carthage army went back to Agrigentum. The Massaliot League army followed and laid a siege to Agrigentum with the fleet controlling the sea.
The battle of Capua.
The fifty five thousands(Epirus/allies, Spartan and Ptolemaic forces) Pyrrhus army meet with the fifty thousands Roman army south of Capua. For two months, the two enemies were stationed close together outside the city without any direct conflict but after some small skirmishes the battle started. The battle was fought over two days. On the first day, the Greek cavalry and elephants went largely unused as they were blocked from the Roman advances by woodland and hills in the vicinity of the battleground, although the Ptolemaic soldiers in the phalanxes engaged the Romans very effectively. Pyrrhus's Macedonians broke the Roman first legion and Rome's Gaul allies on their left wing but the Roman second and third legions overcame the Epirotes in Pyrrhus' centre. To counter this, Pyrrhus deployed the elephants against the second and third legions, who proceeded to take refuge in heavily wooded areas on high ground while remaining under constant fire from the archers and slingers escorting the elephants. Pyrrhus sent the Spartan infantry to drive the Romans out of the woods, but those forces were intercepted by Roman cavalry. Both sides withdrew at the evening, neither having gained a significant advantage. At dawn, Pyrrhus sent the Spartans to occupy the treacherous high ground which had proven to be the cause of stalemate the previous day, thereby forcing the Romans to fight in the open or flee. As at Asculum several years ago, the infantry and cavalry engaged in a massive line collision, until the elephants, supported by light infantry, broke through the Roman line. As a result, the specialised anti-elephant Roman devices were quickly deployed by Roman commanders and officers, though briefly proving effective, the small force was eventually overwhelmed by Greek light infantry . The Romans succumbed to the combined pressure of the phalanx and elephants, which Pyrrhus ordered to advance. Pyrrhus simultaneously ordered his personal cavalry to charge, beginning and quickly completing a rout. The defeated Roman force made a coordinate retreat. It was a bloodbath on both sides. Twenty five thousands Romans and twenty one thousands Greek were dead. After that Pyrrhus laid siege in Capua.
The battle of Syracuse
In the plain valley near Syracuse, the thirty four thousands Carthaginian army faced the twenty five thousands army of Massaliot League and Syracuse. After two days standing opposite from each other, the fight began one morning after a volley attack from the Greek mounted archers. The Carthage cavalry charged against them and followed them near the Greek camp. The close by, second Greek tagma charge them after a barrage of artillery. The Carthaginian cavalry was exposed in the flanks and the Greek cavalry started to charge them, making retreat and regroup difficult. Fearing to lose most of his cavalry, Hannibal commanded a full scale attack (feeling sure for his superior numbers). When the Carthage army was in artillery range, the Greek cavalry withdraw to the rears, trapping the Carthage cavalry between the tagmata and their infantry. What followed was a massacre. The Carthaginian army center was under heavy artillery attack and the rears under charges from the Greek cavalry and mounted archers. The Carthage army fought ferociously to break the tagmata but after some hours, with the help of heavy artillery rain, the Carthage lines start to root. The battle was over.The highly trained,better equipped,compined arms and professional Massaliot League army was no match for the Carthaginian army. Nineteen thousands Carthage warriors and twenty elephants(mostly by ballistas) where dead and four thousands where sold as slaves. The Greeks had more than four thousands dead and injured. After this devastate loss the Carthage army went back to Agrigentum. The Massaliot League army followed and laid a siege to Agrigentum with the fleet controlling the sea.
The battle of Capua.
The fifty five thousands(Epirus/allies, Spartan and Ptolemaic forces) Pyrrhus army meet with the fifty thousands Roman army south of Capua. For two months, the two enemies were stationed close together outside the city without any direct conflict but after some small skirmishes the battle started. The battle was fought over two days. On the first day, the Greek cavalry and elephants went largely unused as they were blocked from the Roman advances by woodland and hills in the vicinity of the battleground, although the Ptolemaic soldiers in the phalanxes engaged the Romans very effectively. Pyrrhus's Macedonians broke the Roman first legion and Rome's Gaul allies on their left wing but the Roman second and third legions overcame the Epirotes in Pyrrhus' centre. To counter this, Pyrrhus deployed the elephants against the second and third legions, who proceeded to take refuge in heavily wooded areas on high ground while remaining under constant fire from the archers and slingers escorting the elephants. Pyrrhus sent the Spartan infantry to drive the Romans out of the woods, but those forces were intercepted by Roman cavalry. Both sides withdrew at the evening, neither having gained a significant advantage. At dawn, Pyrrhus sent the Spartans to occupy the treacherous high ground which had proven to be the cause of stalemate the previous day, thereby forcing the Romans to fight in the open or flee. As at Asculum several years ago, the infantry and cavalry engaged in a massive line collision, until the elephants, supported by light infantry, broke through the Roman line. As a result, the specialised anti-elephant Roman devices were quickly deployed by Roman commanders and officers, though briefly proving effective, the small force was eventually overwhelmed by Greek light infantry . The Romans succumbed to the combined pressure of the phalanx and elephants, which Pyrrhus ordered to advance. Pyrrhus simultaneously ordered his personal cavalry to charge, beginning and quickly completing a rout. The defeated Roman force made a coordinate retreat. It was a bloodbath on both sides. Twenty five thousands Romans and twenty one thousands Greek were dead. After that Pyrrhus laid siege in Capua.
- The Massaliot tagma under Kallias after Corsica conquered Sardinia.
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The Greeks seem to be doing pretty well. I feel bad for Carthage, but I do hope for a Greek victory when this is all over.
Who is the commander of the Roman army?He sure gave Pyhrris a good run for his money despite losing.