The Many Sons of Louis XV

There have been topics discussing alternate children for the Catholic Monarchs as well as Louis XIII (with all of Anne of Austria's stillbirths/miscarriages being carried to term) so I figured why not do a similar topic on the children of Louis XV. This French King was quite unlucky with his Polish Queen. They had a total of 10 children, but only two sons (one of which died young). The other eight were daughters. Only one of his daughters married, to the Infante Philip, later Duke of Parma. Two of the daughters died young, but the others never married, and one even became a nun. It was suggested that they never married because of the awkward period in which they were born left a lack of suitable princes to marry them, and thus remaining unmarried and at Versailles was considered much more suitable. So instead, let's give Louis XV his many sons in lieu of his daughters. To matters simple, we'll give these children the life spans of their OTL counter-parts.

- Louis (OTL Louise Elisabeth), the Dauphin: 1727-1759
- Philippe (OTL Henriette, twin of Louise), the Duke of Anjou: 1727-1752
- Charles (OTL Louise, died young), the Duke of Burgundy: 1728-1733
- Louise (OTL Louis, the Dauphin): 1729-1765
- Marie Thérèse (OTL Philippe, Duc d'Anjou, died young): 1730-1733
- Charles Stanislaus (OTL Marie Adelaide), the Duke of Burgundy: 1732-1800
- Louis Joseph (OTL Victoire), the Duke of Aquitaine: 1733-1799
- Charles Philippe (OTL Sophie), the Duke of Berri: 1734-1782
- Stillborn Child: 1735
- Philippe François (OTL, Thérèse), the Duke of Alençon: 1736-1744
- Louis Auguste (OTL Louise-Marie), the Duke of Alençon: 1737-1787

Names just based on what was popular within the royal family at that time, going back to Louis XIV's time. With more sons, one would certainly bare the name of his Polish grandfather. I'm fairly certain all these sons would be granted appanages, I just used what was considered at the time" Louis XV's historical second son was granted Anjou, and I went from there, as one of his grandsons was granted Burgundy and another Aquitaine, before Louis XVIII and Charles X were granted counties: I'm unsure why Louis XVIII was granted Provence, but Charles X was specifically granted Artois because he was born shortly after Robert Damiens attempted to assassinate the king, and was from that province. The grant of Artois to his grandson was to show the people of that province that he still loved them. Without anything to rock the boat, all these sons are certainly made Dukes.

Louis XV would still be deprived of his eldest son before his own death, so would probably still be succeeded by a grandson. It's possible though, that the Dauphin fails to have heirs and so Louis XV would instead be succeeded by the Duke of Anjou. As for his lone surviving daughter in this scenario, she will probably marry a Spanish Prince, likely the Infante Philip, as the earliest marriages of Louis XV's children were to patch up things with the Spanish branch. In this case, the Dauphin probably still has a Spanish wife, who may or may not survive, or he could die without heirs. As for the other sons, it'd be interesting to see who they might marry. Like the ill-fated princesses, might some of them not marry out of lack of suitable princesses at the time? The Austrians are not yet allies, so these princes won't benefit from the diplomatic revolution that saw Louis XV betroth his grandson to an Austrian Archduchess. As long as there are suitable princesses in the places that the French royal family married into (Bavaria and Savoy come to mind), the six surviving sons might see themselves wed. I know there were a couple Savoyard Princesses much like their French counterparts that were abandoned because of lack of suitable princes to marry. It seems especially in the period of 1730-1740, there were many princesses born into European royal families, but not enough princes to counterbalance it.
 
That's a very interesting scenario... Louis XV having that many sons (and so few daughters), it would change things in France and secure the succession.

In this scenario, out of the 11 children of Louis XV, only 7 of them will survive up to adulthood: six sons and one daughter. While the daughter will surely be married for political reasons, some of the sons might not: it's possible at least one of them ends up in the Church. Of the sons who would probably end up in the Church, my guess is Philippe (the second one) would be a good candidate, since he's the twin of the Dauphin (Louis): though the Monarchy has decided who's first among the twins, there would be room for contestation so it would be best to ensure one of the twins doesn't have children. Another good candidate for the Church would be the youngest one, Louis Auguste, because he's the sixth son and thus very far from the throne. On a side note, boys who will enter the Church do not receive an apanage in France if memory serves me right.

The succession of Louis XV will depend on when his sons are going to marry and if they will leave male sons behind. From the looks of it, it's likely we get a son of Louis XV's eldest son to become King (Louis XVI?) of France in 1774. If not, possible successors would be sons of the Dauphin's twin, Philippe, if he has some or Charles Stanislaus (third son) and his bloodline.

I have no real clue on the possible brides of Louis XV's sons. The two brides of the OTL Dauphin, Maria Theresa Rafaela of Spain and Maria Josepha of Saxony, are among the likely possibilities since they are around the same age as Louis XV's sons. For the others, I would have to look among the princesses of allied families (Bourbon-Parma, Bourbon-Sicilies, Savoy, etc...) for possibilities as well as into French nobility for the youngest ones, be they cousins (Bourbon-Orléans, Bourbon-Condé, etc...) or not. As for Maria Theresa, the only daughter of Louis XV in this scenario, it's likely she ends up married to the Duke of Parma like her "OTL sister".
 
That's a very interesting scenario... Louis XV having that many sons (and so few daughters), it would change things in France and secure the succession.

In this scenario, out of the 11 children of Louis XV, only 7 of them will survive up to adulthood: six sons and one daughter. While the daughter will surely be married for political reasons, some of the sons might not: it's possible at least one of them ends up in the Church. Of the sons who would probably end up in the Church, my guess is Philippe (the second one) would be a good candidate, since he's the twin of the Dauphin (Louis): though the Monarchy has decided who's first among the twins, there would be room for contestation so it would be best to ensure one of the twins doesn't have children. Another good candidate for the Church would be the youngest one, Louis Auguste, because he's the sixth son and thus very far from the throne. On a side note, boys who will enter the Church do not receive an apanage in France if memory serves me right.

The succession of Louis XV will depend on when his sons are going to marry and if they will leave male sons behind. From the looks of it, it's likely we get a son of Louis XV's eldest son to become King (Louis XVI?) of France in 1774. If not, possible successors would be sons of the Dauphin's twin, Philippe, if he has some or Charles Stanislaus (third son) and his bloodline.

I have no real clue on the possible brides of Louis XV's sons. The two brides of the OTL Dauphin, Maria Theresa Rafaela of Spain and Maria Josepha of Saxony, are among the likely possibilities since they are around the same age as Louis XV's sons. For the others, I would have to look among the princesses of allied families (Bourbon-Parma, Bourbon-Sicilies, Savoy, etc...) for possibilities as well as into French nobility for the youngest ones, be they cousins (Bourbon-Orléans, Bourbon-Condé, etc...) or not. As for Maria Theresa, the only daughter of Louis XV in this scenario, it's likely she ends up married to the Duke of Parma like her "OTL sister".

The succession is definitely secure, and I agree that one of the sons could end up in the Church. I would assume even with so many sons, Louis XV will tire of his queen and probably end up living a similar lifestyle. He lost interest in her not because they had so many daughters, but he found her boring and he wasn't able to hold an interest in her. Many of his daughters were religiously devout and sided with their mother over the king and his mistresses, so I think one of the sons could certainly decide to enter the church to atone for the sins of his father.

Maria Theresa certainly ends up married to the Duke of Parma, and the Dauphin probably marries Maria Theresa Rafaela as OTL, they are simply different people marrying the same people as their similar counterparts. Spain was still angry over Louis XV's original bride being sent home, so the king will want to appease them, and a double match will do well fix things. We'll go ahead and say the youngest son enters the church, as it was also Louis XV's youngest daughter who chose to become a nun. The marriages of the children will probably be split between the elder sons (those born between 1727-1732) and the younger ones (from 1733 onwards). Louis Auguste will join the church, and two sons died young, leaving five to marry. The youngest 'marriageable' son, the Duke of Berri would be a suitable age gap that he'd be a suitable husband to one of daughters of Don Carlos, King of Naples until 1759. The Bourbon-Parma and Bourbon-Sicilies branches didn't exist as we know them in the 1740s/1750s, but would certainly be around once these princes have married and settled down. The Bourbon cadet branches within France were also lacking, I believe. I know the Duke of Orléans had no children aside from his son and heir, for instance. The Princes of Condé and Conti were in similar straits in this generation. As for the five sons and daughter, I figure these marriages might work. I'm only discussing first marriages, as it would be too much to discuss second or third ones.

The Dauphin: Maria Theresa Rafaela, as the OTL Dauphin did. They would probably wed around 1745-1746. The OTL wedding was in 1744, when the OTL Dauphin was 15, but he was also the only son. With so many sons, it could certainly be pushed away until he was a bit older.

The Duke of Anjou: Maria Felicita of Savoy, although either of her sisters, who were suggested brides for the OTL Dauphin work as well. I imagine they could do a double wedding with that of the Dauphin, considering they are twins, but also as a cost saving measure, as even as early as this period were there protests over royal extravagance.

Louise, Madame Royale: As stated before, she will marry the Infante Philip, later Duke of Parma.

The Duke of Burgundy: One of the princesses of Bavaria, sometime in the early 1750s. One of the Saxon Princesses might be considered too, but I think a Bavarian one might be a bit more likely.

The Duke of Aquitaine: If the Duke of Burgundy takes a Princess of Bavaria, he could marry a Princess of Saxony. There's also the fact that he'd be coming of age in the early 1750s. The Diplomatic Revolution could be sealed with him, and he could marry an Austrian Archduchess, maybe Maria Anna, despite her disability (she would be the only daughter old enough at that point). The marriage would have to happen before 1756, though. I don't imagine any marriage being celebrated in the midst of the Seven Years War. If no bride is found before then, he may have to wait until the conflict is resolved, or not marry at all. He could possibly end up the most unhappy of Louis XV's children, as I could totally see the match to Maria Anna pursued, despite her disability. As the fourth son, he isn't in any pressing position to have children, so I could see him pushed into marriage with this disabled Archduchess and totally resenting it; or them getting along, but ultimately having no children. He could also end up being forgotten and not marrying at all.

The Duke of Berri: The Duke of Aquitaine marrying an Archduchess is a stretch, as it'd have to happen before the Seven Years War, but could happen. Berri would probably be the last child of Louis XV's to marry, and it might be fairly late, especially as he'd be coming of age in the mid to late 1750s. At any rate, he probably snatches one of the daughters of Charles III, who is certainly King of Spain by time of the marriage. Infanta Maria Josefa is likely. He could also marry a Portuguese Infanta: compared to his other brothers, he'd be marrying in his mid to late 20s, even his early thirties, and his bride would be in most cases in her twenties (although the first Portuguese Infanta listed would be in her teens), his with marriage being used to reinforce ties with Spain or rebuild them with Portugal. Like Aquitaine, he could end up 'forgotten' and end up not marrying at all.
 
Just a little nitpick, if I may...
I think that you are confusing appanages with courtesy titles. In the Ancien Régime, each fils de France (the sons of the king and his heir) would receive a courtesy title at birth (e.g. King Louis XV's second son was styled as "Philippe de France, Duc d'Anjou"). As the French royal family had a habit of baptizing children late unless absolutely necessary (Louis XV's eldest son was 16 at his christening), the prince in question would usually be known only by their title until that time (e.g. Monsieur d'Anjou). It was essentially considered part of the name, as it was not a real title connected to a fief.

Now, upon marriage, it was the custom to grant a fils de France an appanage. Appanages consisted of a collection of fiefs, and if memory serves, they had to have to generate a certain income per annum to properly maintain the prince and his heirs. For example, Louis XIV's brother, Philippe de France, Duc d'Anjou was granted the Duchies of Orléans, Chartres, Valois and Nemours, along with several other counties and baronies. This was to ensure that cadet branches of each junior line of the royal house could be endowed with fiefs as well. While princes could acquire other fiefs, the appanage was unique as it reverted back to the Crown upon the extinction of male heirs. Appanages were almost never the same as the prince's earlier courtesy title (and conversely, a courtesy title could never be the same as that of an existing fief). Once an appanage was received, the prince in question would generally cease using the earlier courtesy title, as well. However, confusingly, Louis XIV's grandson the Duc de Berry, and Louis XV's grandsons, the future Louis XVIII and Charles X, both received royal brevets authorizing them to continue to use their courtesy titles as their primary means of address for their lifetimes.
 
Just a little nitpick, if I may...
I think that you are confusing appanages with courtesy titles. In the Ancien Régime, each fils de France (the sons of the king and his heir) would receive a courtesy title at birth (e.g. King Louis XV's second son was styled as "Philippe de France, Duc d'Anjou"). As the French royal family had a habit of baptizing children late unless absolutely necessary (Louis XV's eldest son was 16 at his christening), the prince in question would usually be known only by their title until that time (e.g. Monsieur d'Anjou). It was essentially considered part of the name, as it was not a real title connected to a fief.

Now, upon marriage, it was the custom to grant a fils de France an appanage. Appanages consisted of a collection of fiefs, and if memory serves, they had to have to generate a certain income per annum to properly maintain the prince and his heirs. For example, Louis XIV's brother, Philippe de France, Duc d'Anjou was granted the Duchies of Orléans, Chartres, Valois and Nemours, along with several other counties and baronies. This was to ensure that cadet branches of each junior line of the royal house could be endowed with fiefs as well. While princes could acquire other fiefs, the appanage was unique as it reverted back to the Crown upon the extinction of male heirs. Appanages were almost never the same as the prince's earlier courtesy title (and conversely, a courtesy title could never be the same as that of an existing fief). Once an appanage was received, the prince in question would generally cease using the earlier courtesy title, as well. However, confusingly, Louis XIV's grandson the Duc de Berry, and Louis XV's grandsons, the future Louis XVIII and Charles X, both received royal brevets authorizing them to continue to use their courtesy titles as their primary means of address for their lifetimes.

I'm aware of the difference. The appanage was a grant of land to younger sons who would otherwise not inherit the crown, and to support them financially. And at least until towards the end of the monarchy, the courtesy title and that of the appanage tended to be one in the same. Louis XIV's son, the little Duc d'Anjou, was known as such, but never held the territory nor did he receive any revenues from it. A French prince would not be formally endowed until he reached adulthood, or upon his marriage. Most of the time the title which they were known as tended to be the most 'senior' of the lands they received in their appanage. The Duke of Orléans was not just that of Orléans but several other pieces of land that weren't reunited with the crown until 1830. Louis XVIII and Charles X also held a wide variety of lands that made up their appanages, which were added to by their brother, and even reduced and swapped for other lands, which added to the confusion. Artois and Provence are perhaps the only exceptions to the courtesy/appanage, as well as Louis XIV's grandson. For the great majority of the time, they tended to be one in the same. The courtesy title they held would be their appanage upon adulthood.

But that doesn't have anything to do with the topic at hand, which is discussing if Louis XV had these sons, and what impact it might have on the fortunes of the dynasty and what martial alliances they might pursue.
 
Just an idea: now that Louis XV has all these extra sons, could he push the name of one of them to a candidate for the Polish throne, considering that they all would also be sons of Marie Leszczyńska?
 
Just an idea: now that Louis XV has all these extra sons, could he push the name of one of them to a candidate for the Polish throne, considering that they all would also be sons of Marie Leszczyńska?

That is also possible, following the death of Augustus III, who died in 1763. We could certainly see something unfold in Poland in the late stages of the Seven Years War. Austria and Russia were allies of France, so I'm sure they would support a French Prince in lieu of Poniatowski. Austria would certainly accept the Duke of Aquitaine if he marries an Austrian Archduchess. We could also see a partition occur upon his ascension, at least with Austria and Russia, to ensure the prince is pliable. Louis XV might accept such a foreign adventure, as he tried in 1733 to restore his father-in-law... the problem was he wasn't proactive enough, and in 1763 does France have the resources to bring about the ascension, as Louis XIV had the Prince of Conti elected? I think it's likely, but the prince would certainly be elected by Austrian and Russian bayonets.
 
Depends if the butterflies decree a better fate for France in the *Seven Years War.

Even if they do better, it's still going to be an expensive affair. Did Augustus die before the end of the war? If so, it could certainly be extended a few months... but placing a French Prince on the throne could mean extending the war as a whole, and by 1763 France wasn't in a position to keep fighting. There's a definite reason why France didn't intervene in the partition of Poland and the War of the Bavarian Succession IOTL. They were broke. The American Revolutionary War was fought primarily by floating loans, making the situation even worse.

Aquitaine could attain the throne, but it'd be Austrian and Russian support primarily. France would not be in the position.. and I'm not sure all these sons would really impact French policies. Fleury will still govern until his death, and Louis XV will still probably align himself with the Philosophes over the Clerical Party. I doubt these extra sons would really impact French policies, at least not until they got a bit older, in the 1750s and 1760s. But even originally, the Dauphin was kept at a distance because of his alignment with the clericals. The Dauphin in this situation would probably be more enlightenment minded (if we give these sons similar personalities to the OTL daughters, for simplicity), but he's still going to die young. I dunno if these princes would have much influence on the government, at least officially. Informally they can exert their influence, but they may still find themselves sidelined.
 
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