The Man In The High Castle Season 4: What happens after Season 4?

Yes, I know we all sensed the show was rushed and so much questions remain unanswered. We still do not know what that ending where several people from the multiverse entered the Axis victory world while a political void exists between the BCR and the American Reich. What will happen to Nazi America and how will the Greater German Reich react is all up to fanfiction.

Personally I'd see that the United States won't be reestablished that easily. An entire generation of kids (equivalent to the Baby Boomer generation) grew up not knowing what the American ideals stood for and were heavily indoctrinated with Nazi ideologies. There will also be the present distrust between the loose Resistance and the Americans that collaborated with the Reich on top of the resistance fighting among their own. Then you'd have African-Americans seeing the White Americans as not so different from the Germans due to pre-war Jim Crow laws.

Leave your thoughts below. Everyone is welcome to contribute.
 
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The ending seemed to imply that the American Reich would reform, but what exactly those reforms would be is anyone's guess. I could see an end to the Jahr Null program and a greater emphasis on being an American regime first and foremost. However, this would open up a debate on what it means to be American between the older generation and the Boomers who grew up on Nazi propaganda. I would like to think that America would go through some equivalent of Perestroika and Glasnost in OTL's Soviet Union eventually, mellowing out into a country that still has an authoritarian and nationalist streak, but is much better than it could have been.
 
I don't see the BRC surviving. In the first episode, Whitcroft goes on about how killing Wyatt's rebels gives him a hard-on. He was gung-ho about 'reunifying' America and we're given no indication that he disagrees with Smith's genocide plan. Why does he call off the attack at the last minute then after Smith dies (something he doesn't even know for sure)?

I suppose the showrunners wanted things to end on an uplifting note as far as that is possible in a world where Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan won the war. But to me it seems more likely that he needs to consolidate his position first. Those death camps may still get built. Ironically, the BRC's main hope of survival may be sheepishly asking the Japanese to take them in as a client state.

Presumably Year Zero will be brought to an end, but I don't see the US suddenly turning back to democracy. Whitcroft keeps talking about how they should break free from Nazi Germany...but that seems to me because he wants to be ruled by American fascists, not for America to be a colony of Germany. Besides, as Smith and others show, tons of people were complicit in the Nazi atrocities and obviously have no interest in potentially being prosecuted for their crimes. Moreover, an entire generation has been raised to believe in the Nazi ideals and see them as the natural path for America.

As for Nazi Germany, I see their penchant for purges eventually catching up with them and leading to civil war. Goertzmann, a random SS General, just wiped out what seems like a good portion of the Nazi leadership. Surely some Gauleiter or SS-Obergruppenführer are now thinking 'if he can do it, why not me, too?' We keep hearing about how Japan is having trouble keeping its colonial emire together, but realistically the Nazis ought to have this problem too, considering how much territory has been placed under the jackboot and how awful their government is.
 
The ending seemed to imply that the American Reich would reform, but what exactly those reforms would be is anyone's guess. I could see an end to the Jahr Null program and a greater emphasis on being an American regime first and foremost. However, this would open up a debate on what it means to be American between the older generation and the Boomers who grew up on Nazi propaganda. I would like to think that America would go through some equivalent of Perestroika and Glasnost in OTL's Soviet Union eventually, mellowing out into a country that still has an authoritarian and nationalist streak, but is much better than it could have been.
I don't see the BRC surviving. In the first episode, Whitcroft goes on about how killing Wyatt's rebels gives him a hard-on. He was gung-ho about 'reunifying' America and we're given no indication that he disagrees with Smith's genocide plan. Why does he call off the attack at the last minute then after Smith dies (something he doesn't even know for sure)?

I suppose the showrunners wanted things to end on an uplifting note as far as that is possible in a world where Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan won the war. But to me it seems more likely that he needs to consolidate his position first. Those death camps may still get built. Ironically, the BRC's main hope of survival may be sheepishly asking the Japanese to take them in as a client state.

Presumably Year Zero will be brought to an end, but I don't see the US suddenly turning back to democracy. Whitcroft keeps talking about how they should break free from Nazi Germany...but that seems to me because he wants to be ruled by American fascists, not for America to be a colony of Germany. Besides, as Smith and others show, tons of people were complicit in the Nazi atrocities and obviously have no interest in potentially being prosecuted for their crimes.

As for Nazi Germany, I see their penchant for purges eventually catching up with them and leading to civil war. Goertzmann, a random SS General, just wiped out what seems like a good portion of the Nazi leadership. Surely some Gauleiter or SS-Obergruppenführer are now thinking 'if he can do it, why not me, too?' We keep hearing about how Japan is having trouble keeping its colonial emire together, but realistically the Nazis ought to have this problem too, considering how much territory has been placed under the jackboot and how awful their government is.
Then this new America will also have to make deals with the African-American population and the Black Communist Rebellion who are naturally suspicious of the pre-war U.S.

I'm not sure the new Führer Goertzmann will react to America suddenly declaring independence. Probaly they'll fire a nuke in the Atlantic as a threat if they attempt to secede (ala like Taiwan if it declares independence from the PRC).

Also, I'm sure the Reich would collapse to a civil war once it would be clear Himmler and the Nazi High Command were murdered in a coup. No way they can cover up for long.
 
I'm not sure the new Führer Goertzmann will react to America suddenly declaring independence. Probaly they'll fire a nuke in the Atlantic as a threat if they attempt to secede (ala like Taiwan if it declares independence from the PRC).

Exactly. The deal was between him and Smith. And he said America has complete autonomy, which is not the same as independence. Seems more comparable to those periods of time when Rome had two Emperors, but one was still the pre-eminent one. Moreover, it does not look like Goertzmann was briefed about the Nebenwelt project, based on his reaction when it gets brought up in that episode when he and Himmler have dinner with the Smiths. But once he's Führer, he'd have access to Hitler and Himmler's films, files etc. This gives him another reason to try and 'reclaim' the wayward colony. Plus letting it drift out of the Reich's orbit makes him look weak.

Apparently the American troops of the Reich have access to nukes...which is bizarre. No matter how loyal they are, Germany wouldn't give them nukes. Or maybe Germany only stationed nukes there and Whitcroft meant that they could easily seize them.

And, yeah, murdering the whole high command is kinda...difficult to cover up. Doubly so since right afterwards America gets some kinda special status. Himmler seems to have tried to pack senior positions with his SS creatures. Witness how Rockwell is replaced by Smith, and the guy giving the briefing is Eichmann, not a Heer field marshal like in season 2 and the three candidates to lead the invasion are Goertzmann, Smith and Eichmann. Then he gets couped. Goertzmann is likely to find he's sitting on a powder keg. It's unclear whether Goebbels is still around. He got name-dropped every season till season 4. If he has not been purged, he'd presumably try and take over.
 
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The Third Reich might be conditioned to follow coup leaders, if there's no high ranking official left (or willing) to countermand the coup plotters.

As for the Nazi's colonial empire, the most logical answer is that instead of Generalplan Ost, they instead decided to brainwash all (or at least most) of the Eastern Slavs into whatever the Nazis thought a "pre Mongol Yoke/Bolshevik Judaic" eastern Slavic culture would look like.

Perhaps Whitcroft stopped the invasion since he can't afford to both maintain forces to credibly deter against any sort of military action from Berlin, and pacify the BCR and allies (which would be a very manpower intensive affair)?

EDIT: Whitcroft may also be worried about potential GNR defections as well, since we saw at least whole squads/platoons defecting to the BCR.
 
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I don't see the BRC surviving. In the first episode, Whitcroft goes on about how killing Wyatt's rebels gives him a hard-on. He was gung-ho about 'reunifying' America and we're given no indication that he disagrees with Smith's genocide plan. Why does he call off the attack at the last minute then after Smith dies (something he doesn't even know for sure)?


I believe the implication was that Helen's "Reichsgiving "speech was what changed him. That the speech made him remember what he had been, the nation he'd betrayed, and the best friend he'd helped murder awoke something old in him. After the speech while he doesn't say anything he does look like he just got stabbed in the gut. And afterward he act's a lot less gung ho, a lot more troubled, and begins actively suggesting rebellion *such as during the stand off with Himmler suggesting outright grabbing the nukes and declaring independence). He still wouldn't be perfect by any means and I'm not sure he'd be able to hold onto power. But he was shown growing a conscious.

The BCR is in general still kind of fucked. Even if the old US is restored I'm not sure there will be any favor for allowing a BCR independent state. And even in the Japanese Pacific states it seems like black Americans are massively outnumbered.
 
Speaking of the BCR, I get the feeling they would probably work out some kind of deal with Japan where they are nominally part of the GEACPS in exchange for protection from the Reich. California gets the nuclear umbrella, while Japan gets to save face to some extent. The show did imply that Japan won't be able to hold on to its empire for much longer, since Manchuria is still an at least somewhat active warzone and they couldn't afford to directly occupy the Pacific States. Perhaps the Co-Prosperity Sphere develops into more of a federation with Japan as first-among-equals rather than a master, for the sake of practicality if nothing else.
 
he Third Reich might be conditioned to follow coup leaders, if there's no high ranking official left (or willing) to countermand the coup plotters.

As for the Nazi's colonial empire, the most logical answer is that instead of Generalplan Ost, they instead decided to brainwash all (or at least most) of the Eastern Slavs into whatever the Nazis thought a "pre Mongol Yoke/Bolshevik Judaic" eastern Slavic culture would look like.

Perhaps Whitcroft stopped the invasion since he can't afford to both maintain forces to credibly deter against any sort of military action from Berlin, and pacify the BCR and allies (which would be a very manpower intensive affair)?

EDIT: Whitcroft may also be worried about potential GNR defections as well, since we saw at least whole squads/platoons defecting to the BCR.
If General Witchcroft seizes power, he can hold Berlin hostage with the Nazi nukes still in North America. The question is how Goertzmann will retaliate and turn the world into a nuclear hell scape.
I believe the implication was that Helen's "Reichsgiving "speech was what changed him. That the speech made him remember what he had been, the nation he'd betrayed, and the best friend he'd helped murder awoke something old in him. After the speech while he doesn't say anything he does look like he just got stabbed in the gut. And afterward he act's a lot less gung ho, a lot more troubled, and begins actively suggesting rebellion *such as during the stand off with Himmler suggesting outright grabbing the nukes and declaring independence). He still wouldn't be perfect by any means and I'm not sure he'd be able to hold onto power. But he was shown growing a conscious.

The BCR is in general still kind of fucked. Even if the old US is restored I'm not sure there will be any favor for allowing a BCR independent state. And even in the Japanese Pacific states it seems like black Americans are massively outnumbered.
Smith was too far gone IMO. He was too drunk with Nazi ideals and power. Yes, I agree the BCR is fucked especially they plan to create an ethnostate right next to another megaethnostate. They have no defense against American Reich bombers and naval warships. They only have a shit ton of small arms and a handful of captured armored vehicles. No SAMs, AAs, ASMs, etc.
Speaking of the BCR, I get the feeling they would probably work out some kind of deal with Japan where they are nominally part of the GEACPS in exchange for protection from the Reich. California gets the nuclear umbrella, while Japan gets to save face to some extent. The show did imply that Japan won't be able to hold on to its empire for much longer, since Manchuria is still an at least somewhat active warzone and they couldn't afford to directly occupy the Pacific States. Perhaps the Co-Prosperity Sphere develops into more of a federation with Japan as first-among-equals rather than a master, for the sake of practicality if nothing else.
Japan isn't coming back and I'm sure they are not in the position to renegotiate some form of protectorate to the BCR especially if those were the ones that destroyed the California oil pipelines. Japan's priorities were quelling rebellions in China, India, Australia, and possibly the rest of Asia and the Pacific (Solomons, Caroline Islands, the Philippines, Indonesia, etc.). It was also mentioned that Korea has fallen to the Chinese resistance. Would be interesting what the developments in Asia were headed.
 
Except that I think the impression is that the Nazis don't directly control all of their territories. They probably have puppet regimes (ala Vichy France) do the government work for them and they probably have varying levels of autonomy, depending on how they fit into Hitler's racial vision.

The Nazis set up puppet regimes in regions whose population they don't consider total 'Untermenschen' or where they have strategic reasons to do so. Like in America, Vichy France etc. There their touch would be 'lighter' because they'd recruit native collaborators to do the oppressing and purging of 'undesirables' for them. The Eastern territories were envisaged as colonial territories that were supposed to be 'Germanised'. Hell, that was also the long-term plan for the Reich Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia.

Now we don't we really get any information on what's happened in Russia, Ukraine etc., so there is some room for interpretation. But one can assume they've probably done all the things they did in OTL and have attempted to carry out Generalplan Ost, which is also what they did in the novel. Moreover, it's mentioned they committed genocide in Africa. Besides, the Japanese set up vassal regimes too in OTL, and yet they're still having so much trouble that it's a major point. In fact, China is somehow able to wage a full-scale war against them and attack Manchuria (I guess they managed to make contact with our universe and get help from the PRC because otherwise I have trouble coming up with an explanation for this?).

As for the BCR...I propose that we assume that this isn't their actual name, but a label the Nazis and Japanese use for them...because, seriously, it's dumb. Just like 'Greater Nazi Reich'. It's like the Soviets calling themselves the Commie Union.

A Whitcroft-ruled America would probably be an autocracy modelled somewhat on Nazi Germany, but with a distinctly American flavour. He would probably build this new America on what Smith said just after America surrendered to the Nazis in 1947: The old American system didn't work, so why bring it back?

Agreed. It would be an 'Americanised' fascism. 'Fascism was what the founding fathers wanted, but their intentions were corrupted by the Jews! It represents the enterprising spirit of the brave pioneers who civilised the Wild West!' I can see Smith being given a status akin to a new founding father.
 
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In fact, China is somehow able to wage a full-scale war against them and attack Manchuria (I guess they managed to make contact with our universe and get help from the PRC because otherwise I have trouble coming up with an explanation for this?).

There is a massive neutral zone in the middle of Central Asia, so maybe that's where the Chinese rebels are getting their weapons?


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"We're gonna be one country again."
"Soon."

The scene he throws his Nazi insignia means that he was only doing it to save his skin.
 

Ficboy

Banned
"We're gonna be one country again."
"Soon."

The scene he throws his Nazi insignia means that he was only doing it to save his skin.
Well the long-term effects of a post-Season 4 Man in the High Castle world is that Nazi Germany descends into a civil war that destroys the country and since it is split into two the western half dies while its eastern cousins survive but not for long, the resurrection and rebirth of the United States as indicated by these two quotes, the weakening of Japan, the Soviet Union and partisan resistance groups take advantage of the chaos to free their conquered lands from Nazi oppression, the reemergence of Black and Jewish cultures alongside homosexuality and other trends and Canada might just come back from the dead.
 

mspence

Banned
Britain probably recognizes that the era of colonialism is dead; otherwise they might be faced with trying to get the African countries and India to rejoin a restored Empire? (I don't think much mention was made of Britain in the series, was it?)
 
I don’t realistically see the BCR retaining any significant level of power for very long. Due to sloppy show-writing it took just several targeted strikes on resource facilities on the West Coast for the entire Japanese presence to suddenly withdraw. Apparently the Chinese Communists have managed to take over a massive swath of China, Manchuria and are proceeding into Korea, I think? So there’s a huge war in Asia and Japan is losing, badly. They’ll likely be pulling in troops from every which way to try and put a stop to it.

In any case what’s going to happen in North America is something akin to a civil war in the ensuing power vacuum - the BCR is going to quickly find out their rule is anything but unchallenged. Refugees from the now Nazi-occupied Neutral Zone are going to be coming into pacific states in droves and bringing various resistance groups centered there with them. Some aren't even part of the Resistance like the bikers who robbed Ed and Childan‘s van; they’re people who have lived a life without laws for over a decade and certainly aren’t going to give that up. Judging by some of the BCR soldier’s dialogue in some scenes it seems like they’re somewhat reluctant to deal with anyone who isn’t explicitly a sympathizer or part of their organization- a surefire way to ensure the collapse of one’s cause.

Baja could see reunification with Mexico but the situation in western Canada is less than clear. In fact we never, ever hear of what it’s like in South America, in my opinion it serves little for Japan’s interests aside from yet another huge stretch of territory they can plant their flag on at the expense of the local population. Maybe we’ll see uprisings there? So more strain on Japan’s war machine there unless they withdrew around the same time as they did the JPS.

In the East there’s inevitably going to be a civil war or power struggle there too. The sudden fracturing of the Reich and the killing of literally the entire Nazi high command is a recipe for disaster. What will the Heer (which somehow still exists?) think of the SS gunning down their senior generals? What will those in Nazi America react to finding out John Smith is dead, and his second-in-command failed to act on the chance to reunify the country, something John Smith stated on national television was going to happen?

Probably less than stellar. You’d probably see yet another underling, using Goertzmann as an example, gather a group of like-minded officers and and gun down everyone responsible for the ‘failure’ before taking charge themselves.

As for those people coming out of the portal in the final scene - they ought to be waved back with shouts of “NO, GO BACK, GET AWAY FROM HERE” before they have to suffer through the nightmare that envelops the world.

In short: the world is now covered in collapsing empires, power struggles, civil wars, and power vacuums on a level unseen in history. If there’s any happy ending it’s going to arise out of a serious case of cosmic luck. Travelers from alternate dimensions are going to walk into hell on earth. Chances are the Reich and the Empire aren’t going to survive for very long as they did before and will likely disintegrate before the 1960s end.
 
Well the long-term effects of a post-Season 4 Man in the High Castle world is that Nazi Germany descends into a civil war that destroys the country and since it is split into two the western half dies while its eastern cousins survive but not for long, the resurrection and rebirth of the United States as indicated by these two quotes, the weakening of Japan, the Soviet Union and partisan resistance groups take advantage of the chaos to free their conquered lands from Nazi oppression, the reemergence of Black and Jewish cultures alongside homosexuality and other trends and Canada might just come back from the dead.
It would take decades to ressurect the U.S. with so much distrust among the African-Americans, Reich Americans, and Resistance fighters. Canada would see the same fate.

Britain probably recognizes that the era of colonialism is dead; otherwise they might be faced with trying to get the African countries and India to rejoin a restored Empire? (I don't think much mention was made of Britain in the series, was it?)
Britain is more less and non-existent and is not even mentioned once in the show's run. We only see a map that it is part of the Reich. Either something like Wolfenstein: The New Order or SSGB. Alternatively, it could be ruled the Fascist Union led by Oswald Mosley.

I don’t realistically see the BCR retaining any significant level of power for very long. Due to sloppy show-writing it took just several targeted strikes on resource facilities on the West Coast for the entire Japanese presence to suddenly withdraw. Apparently the Chinese Communists have managed to take over a massive swath of China, Manchuria and are proceeding into Korea, I think? So there’s a huge war in Asia and Japan is losing, badly. They’ll likely be pulling in troops from every which way to try and put a stop to it.
Yeah the show was rushed. That's the bad thing about Season 4. As for China, we don't what resistance members are either if they are NRA/KMT, Communists, or Warlords. The fact that Manchuria has fallen to the Chinese and were now pouring into Korea to liberate it from Japan implies that there must have been some form of United Front providing Chiang Kai-Shek, Mao Zedong, Peng Dehuai, and the rest are still alive.
In any case what’s going to happen in North America is something akin to a civil war in the ensuing power vacuum - the BCR is going to quickly find out their rule is anything but unchallenged. Refugees from the now Nazi-occupied Neutral Zone are going to be coming into pacific states in droves and bringing various resistance groups centered there with them. Some aren't even part of the Resistance like the bikers who robbed Ed and Childan‘s van; they’re people who have lived a life without laws for over a decade and certainly aren’t going to give that up. Judging by some of the BCR soldier’s dialogue in some scenes it seems like they’re somewhat reluctant to deal with anyone who isn’t explicitly a sympathizer or part of their organization- a surefire way to ensure the collapse of one’s cause.
Knowing the BCR was hostile to White Americans, it would be hard for these Neutral Zoners to be welcomed. They'd be viewed with suspicion. And yes they have to deal with bandits and biker gangs.

Baja could see reunification with Mexico but the situation in western Canada is less than clear. In fact we never, ever hear of what it’s like in South America, in my opinion it serves little for Japan’s interests aside from yet another huge stretch of territory they can plant their flag on at the expense of the local population. Maybe we’ll see uprisings there? So more strain on Japan’s war machine there unless they withdrew around the same time as they did the JPS.

In the East there’s inevitably going to be a civil war or power struggle there too. The sudden fracturing of the Reich and the killing of literally the entire Nazi high command is a recipe for disaster. What will the Heer (which somehow still exists?) think of the SS gunning down their senior generals? What will those in Nazi America react to finding out John Smith is dead, and his second-in-command failed to act on the chance to reunify the country, something John Smith stated on national television was going to happen?

Probably less than stellar. You’d probably see yet another underling, using Goertzmann as an example, gather a group of like-minded officers and and gun down everyone responsible for the ‘failure’ before taking charge themselves.

As for those people coming out of the portal in the final scene - they ought to be waved back with shouts of “NO, GO BACK, GET AWAY FROM HERE” before they have to suffer through the nightmare that envelops the world.

In short: the world is now covered in collapsing empires, power struggles, civil wars, and power vacuums on a level unseen in history. If there’s any happy ending it’s going to arise out of a serious case of cosmic luck. Travelers from alternate dimensions are going to walk into hell on earth. Chances are the Reich and the Empire aren’t going to survive for very long as they did before and will likely disintegrate before the 1960s end.
Mexico is still independent and would probably negotiate with the BCR on handing back to them.

The East would probably see some riots as Americans would not start destroying Nazi symbols and attack Heer or SS garrisons. Goertzmann would probably launch a nuke into the Atlantic should Nazi America declare independence.

As for the people from the portal, it is up to our interpretation who they are and what are their roles. They could be undercover operatives sent by alternate worlds to deal with the Reich in that Axis victory world once and for all.
 

Ficboy

Banned
It would take decades to ressurect the U.S. with so much distrust among the African-Americans, Reich Americans, and Resistance fighters. Canada would see the same fate.


Britain is more less and non-existent and is not even mentioned once in the show's run. We only see a map that it is part of the Reich. Either something like Wolfenstein: The New Order or SSGB. Alternatively, it could be ruled the Fascist Union led by Oswald Mosley.


Yeah the show was rushed. That's the bad thing about Season 4. As for China, we don't what resistance members are either if they are NRA/KMT, Communists, or Warlords. The fact that Manchuria has fallen to the Chinese and were now pouring into Korea to liberate it from Japan implies that there must have been some form of United Front providing Chiang Kai-Shek, Mao Zedong, Peng Dehuai, and the rest are still alive.

Knowing the BCR was hostile to White Americans, it would be hard for these Neutral Zoners to be welcomed. They'd be viewed with suspicion. And yes they have to deal with bandits and biker gangs.


Mexico is still independent and would probably negotiate with the BCR on handing back to them.

The East would probably see some riots as Americans would not start destroying Nazi symbols and attack Heer or SS garrisons. Goertzmann would probably launch a nuke into the Atlantic should Nazi America declare independence.

As for the people from the portal, it is up to our interpretation who they are and what are their roles. They could be undercover operatives sent by alternate worlds to deal with the Reich in that Axis victory world once and for all.
Your thoughts on the other stuff I mentioned? The United States will probably fully reunify itself by the 1970s or 1980s depending on how the new regime handle BCR and pro-Reich terrorist groups.
 
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