The luck of Henry of Anjou

The luck of Henry of Anjou

Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII dies on crusade and their daughter Marie of France marries Henry d’Anjou king of England in 1160
 
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The Luck of Henry of Anjou
Eleanor of Aquitaine and Louis VII dies on crusade because they were defeated in the crusade in 1147 by the Sarracens and their daughter Marie of France, their deaths had been heard in France and Henry of Anjou fighting the claim of Stephen of Blois on the English throne, he heard about the deaths of the King and Queen of France and because of that he courts Marie of France and arranges a marriage with the regents of France in 1155 and marries Marie of France in 1157 and because of that Henry of Anjou becomes the King of France and claims the Crown of England from his mother.
 
Does Henry have any claim in his own right (as opposed to via marrying Eleanor) to Aquitaine, though?
 
Elfwine said:
Does Henry have any claim in his own right (as opposed to via marrying Eleanor) to Aquitaine, though?

Henry doesn't. Marie of France does on the other hand : she is the daughter of Eleanor, which makes her the Duchess of Aquitaine technically in that scenario.

kasumigenx said:
Then that means the TL where in Louis VII dies and his daughter marrying Henry has a consequence similar to OTL?

Not exactly. Let's have a look.

First, the situation in France. If Louis VII and Eleanor die on the Second Crusade in 1147, they only leave behind a two year old daughter (Marie) as heir to the Kingdom of France and the Duchy of Aquitaine.
Marie is probably going to keep Aquitaine as she will inherit it from her mother in that scenario. France, on the other hand, is likely not to go to her but to one of her Uncles. Two of Marie's Uncle have higher chances of getting the throne than her :
-Henri, the third son of Louis VI and the first younger brother of Louis VII, who became a Bishop in 1149 OTL. He would be 25 in 1147, but a priest by that point.
-Robert, the fifth but fourth surviving son of Louis VI and second surviving younger brother of Louis VII, who became Count of Dreux in 1152 OTL. He would be three years younger than Henri but he wouldn't be a cleric like his brother.

Why would Marie have less right than one of those two? Because 1) She is a child, they're adults and 2) She is a female, they're male. Plus, French Nobles are still pretty strong by that point : the French King only secured their positions with Philip II Augustus OTL, though Philip I (political schemer but had trouble with the papacy), Louis VI (first great and effective king of France) and Louis VII (good administrator despite two huge failures, namely the failed second crusade and marriage to Eleanor) had started the movement a bit. Why do I mention the nobles? Because they are likely to choose the Next King in that situation as Royal Control was still weak in 1147.

Second, there's Henry's own situtaion. Without the marriage to Eleanor, he won't have the ressources of the Duchy of Aquitaine in 1152, which might weaken him in his fight against Stephen of Blois. Not saying he wouldn't succeed in getting the English crown but could probably have a harder time. In any case, his Henry's "Empire" ITTL will only be made of England, Normandy and Anjou (and maybe Britanny indirectly like OTL) if he succeeds.

The solution of Henry marrying Marie would be interesting : it gives Henry a claim to the French throne jure uxoris (in right of his wife), as well as makes him Duke of Aquitaine the same way. This could thus pave the way for an Anglo-French Empire via a French War of Succession.
The problem is that the King of France in this timeline (be it Henri II or Robert III) would probably want to secure his position in France by marrying their heir to the daughter of their predecessor and brother. This would secure the French throne for the next King, and it would bring Aquitaine into the Royal Dosmaine as the marriage of Eleanor and Louis VII intended to do (but failed to realise). Not to mention young Marie would probably be in the care of her Uncle the King.
 
Henry doesn't. Marie of France does on the other hand : she is the daughter of Eleanor, which makes her the Duchess of Aquitaine technically in that scenario.

Gotcha. For some reason my mind missed that.

Not exactly. Let's have a look.

First, the situation in France. If Louis VII and Eleanor die on the Second Crusade in 1147, they only leave behind a two year old daughter (Marie) as heir to the Kingdom of France and the Duchy of Aquitaine.
Marie is probably going to keep Aquitaine as she will inherit it from her mother in that scenario. France, on the other hand, is likely not to go to her but to one of her Uncles. Two of Marie's Uncle have higher chances of getting the throne than her :
-Henri, the third son of Louis VI and the first younger brother of Louis VII, who became a Bishop in 1149 OTL. He would be 25 in 1147, but a priest by that point.
-Robert, the fifth but fourth surviving son of Louis VI and second surviving younger brother of Louis VII, who became Count of Dreux in 1152 OTL. He would be three years younger than Henri but he wouldn't be a cleric like his brother.

Why would Marie have less right than one of those two? Because 1) She is a child, they're adults and 2) She is a female, they're male. Plus, French Nobles are still pretty strong by that point : the French King only secured their positions with Philip II Augustus OTL, though Philip I (political schemer but had trouble with the papacy), Louis VI (first great and effective king of France) and Louis VII (good administrator despite two huge failures, namely the failed second crusade and marriage to Eleanor) had started the movement a bit. Why do I mention the nobles? Because they are likely to choose the Next King in that situation as Royal Control was still weak in 1147.

Second, there's Henry's own situtaion. Without the marriage to Eleanor, he won't have the ressources of the Duchy of Aquitaine in 1152, which might weaken him in his fight against Stephen of Blois. Not saying he wouldn't succeed in getting the English crown but could probably have a harder time. In any case, his Henry's "Empire" ITTL will only be made of England, Normandy and Anjou (and maybe Britanny indirectly like OTL) if he succeeds.

The solution of Henry marrying Marie would be interesting : it gives Henry a claim to the French throne jure uxoris (in right of his wife), as well as makes him Duke of Aquitaine the same way. This could thus pave the way for an Anglo-French Empire via a French War of Succession.
The problem is that the King of France in this timeline (be it Henri II or Robert III) would probably want to secure his position in France by marrying their heir to the daughter of their predecessor and brother. This would secure the French throne for the next King, and it would bring Aquitaine into the Royal Dosmaine as the marriage of Eleanor and Louis VII intended to do (but failed to realise). Not to mention young Marie would probably be in the care of her Uncle the King.

Why do I have a feeling that Marie gets screwed over by this timeline? :eek:
 
Henry doesn't. Marie of France does on the other hand : she is the daughter of Eleanor, which makes her the Duchess of Aquitaine technically in that scenario.

Hmm, considering how young would Marie be, couldn't her aunt Petronilla, sister of Eleanor, and her husband Raoul I of Vermandois have a try and get Aquitaine for them?
 
Henry of Anjou

Henry doesn't. Marie of France does on the other hand : she is the daughter of Eleanor, which makes her the Duchess of Aquitaine technically in that scenario.



Not exactly. Let's have a look.

First, the situation in France. If Louis VII and Eleanor die on the Second Crusade in 1147, they only leave behind a two year old daughter (Marie) as heir to the Kingdom of France and the Duchy of Aquitaine.
Marie is probably going to keep Aquitaine as she will inherit it from her mother in that scenario. France, on the other hand, is likely not to go to her but to one of her Uncles. Two of Marie's Uncle have higher chances of getting the throne than her :
-Henri, the third son of Louis VI and the first younger brother of Louis VII, who became a Bishop in 1149 OTL. He would be 25 in 1147, but a priest by that point.
-Robert, the fifth but fourth surviving son of Louis VI and second surviving younger brother of Louis VII, who became Count of Dreux in 1152 OTL. He would be three years younger than Henri but he wouldn't be a cleric like his brother.

Why would Marie have less right than one of those two? Because 1) She is a child, they're adults and 2) She is a female, they're male. Plus, French Nobles are still pretty strong by that point : the French King only secured their positions with Philip II Augustus OTL, though Philip I (political schemer but had trouble with the papacy), Louis VI (first great and effective king of France) and Louis VII (good administrator despite two huge failures, namely the failed second crusade and marriage to Eleanor) had started the movement a bit. Why do I mention the nobles? Because they are likely to choose the Next King in that situation as Royal Control was still weak in 1147.

Second, there's Henry's own situtaion. Without the marriage to Eleanor, he won't have the ressources of the Duchy of Aquitaine in 1152, which might weaken him in his fight against Stephen of Blois. Not saying he wouldn't succeed in getting the English crown but could probably have a harder time. In any case, his Henry's "Empire" ITTL will only be made of England, Normandy and Anjou (and maybe Britanny indirectly like OTL) if he succeeds.

The solution of Henry marrying Marie would be interesting : it gives Henry a claim to the French throne jure uxoris (in right of his wife), as well as makes him Duke of Aquitaine the same way. This could thus pave the way for an Anglo-French Empire via a French War of Succession.
The problem is that the King of France in this timeline (be it Henri II or Robert III) would probably want to secure his position in France by marrying their heir to the daughter of their predecessor and brother. This would secure the French throne for the next King, and it would bring Aquitaine into the Royal Dosmaine as the marriage of Eleanor and Louis VII intended to do (but failed to realise). Not to mention young Marie would probably be in the care of her Uncle the King.
I agree. A daughter of Louis and Eleanor would be considered heiress of Aquitaine, but not France. Would'nt Salic law apply there? With a French princess the heiress of Aquitaine, whoever becomes king of France will want the opportunity to have influence in Aquitaine.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
I agree. A daughter of Louis and Eleanor would be considered heiress of Aquitaine, but not France. Would'nt Salic law apply there? With a French princess the heiress of Aquitaine, whoever becomes king of France will want the opportunity to have influence in Aquitaine.

Salic law was a convenient excuse used three centuries later; such a crisis hadn't come up yet and it really depends on the people involved whether it would be brushed up then.
 
Salic law was a convenient excuse used three centuries later; such a crisis hadn't come up yet and it really depends on the people involved whether it would be brushed up then.

Two centuries, not three, but yes. And the King of France would have a reasonable influence over Aquitaine anyway, by virtue of being King of France. It wouldn't be a clever move to try to get more influence there, though, because Aquitaine in this era was ungovernable. Kings of France periodically made attempts to take the Ducal title or to buy the loyalty of rebellious Aquitanian vassals, but these were token gestures that never wielded results, and they were generally little more than chipping away at a big Duchy. In a period when the Kingship itself would changed hands under slightly murky terms, and a man who had not been expecting the crown would be forced to take it, it would be foolish for them then to try to interfere with a Duchy with they had no legitimate claim to (remember, Aquitaine came from Eleanor's line, and thrones do not pass to husbands/wives, only to children) and which likely would pose no threat under its own unexpected succession and weak child ruler.
 
Gonzaga said:
Hmm, considering how young would Marie be, couldn't her aunt Petronilla, sister of Eleanor, and her husband Raoul I of Vermandois have a try and get Aquitaine for them?

Interesting possibility. Can't dismiss it as improbable.
However, I think you would have the French King favoring Marie rather than her aunt Petronilla. After all, having your niece as Duchess of the richest feudal holding of France would be pretty neat.
Plus, there is the fact that Marie would be likely to become the wife of the French King's son so that Aquitaine becomes part of the Royal Dosmaine.

That doesn't mean we couldn't see a War of Aquitaine Succession.

el t said:
Would'nt Salic law apply there?

As was mentionned, Salic Law was only a vague memory no one cared about. It became only a successoral law in France in the 1300s.
First in 1316 : when Louis X and his son John I the Posthumous died, leaving Joan of Navarra, daughter of Louis X, and Philip of Poitiers, brother of Louis X. Philip V was chosen, and Women were officially barred from the throne.
Then came 1328 and the death of Charles IV without male heirs. There came the debate on Edward III and Philip of Valois who became Philip VI. It was then Women were completely excluded, as their children could no longer claim the throne.

Now, you can argue it would be applied "technically" in this scenario. Medieval People tended to prefer male rulers over females. Plus, Marie is a baby at this point and thus too young.

On a side note, I talked about Salic Law as I assume you were talking about France. If you meant Aquitaine, it's no : Feudal counties or duchies didn't have Salic Law in France and women could inherit. That is one of the reasons the French Kings were able to extend their royal dosmaine so that it would later become France itself : inheritance can be pretty handy.
 
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