The Low Countries Join The German Empire in 1871

Did people forgot of decades of darkness by jared? They fullify the challenged but different as netherlands got rhineland parts and joined in 1848. But still count

This is a good example, as Jared sort of played a trick here by having the "Netherlands" include some genuine German territory, as well as francophone Wallonia, with the whole area being inherently tied to that rather egotistic William I. The ATL German Confederation proved integral to maintaining his rule, leading to a slow drift into the German world+some unifying wars+the massive material benefits the Netherlands accrued+the very strong federal nature of Germany allowing for local identities and interests to be largely fulfilled. The DEI remained very much tied to Dutch interests even as part of a broader German Empire. Even after a century of being involved in "Germany" the Netherlands retains its own identity, but with that century having been so fruitful that identity has become tied to broader participation in Germany.

The key for getting the Netherlands into Germany is not to make the Netherlands more German, but to make "Germany" a more pluralistic society that allows for local identities and interests to be pursued in conjunction with the more civic German identity, not in spite of it. The OTL Kaiserreich was never going to be this state, but it's a failure of imagination to say that a German state could not emerge in the 19th century that could successfully include nearby minorities like the Dutch, or for that matter Czechs or even Poles.
 
This is a good example, as Jared sort of played a trick here by having the "Netherlands" include some genuine German territory, as well as francophone Wallonia, with the whole area being inherently tied to that rather egotistic William I. The ATL German Confederation proved integral to maintaining his rule, leading to a slow drift into the German world+some unifying wars+the massive material benefits the Netherlands accrued+the very strong federal nature of Germany allowing for local identities and interests to be largely fulfilled. The DEI remained very much tied to Dutch interests even as part of a broader German Empire. Even after a century of being involved in "Germany" the Netherlands retains its own identity, but with that century having been so fruitful that identity has become tied to broader participation in Germany.

The key for getting the Netherlands into Germany is not to make the Netherlands more German, but to make "Germany" a more pluralistic society that allows for local identities and interests to be pursued in conjunction with the more civic German identity, not in spite of it. The OTL Kaiserreich was never going to be this state, but it's a failure of imagination to say that a German state could not emerge in the 19th century that could successfully include nearby minorities like the Dutch, or for that matter Czechs or even Poles.
I think that would need a successful '48 Revolutions.
 
In places yes; but I was always under the assumption that atleast a pluraity of the Netherlands was Calvinist.

The Netherlands in the 19th and most of the 20th century had a calvinist majority. It was roughly 60% calvinist and 40% catholic with several religious minorities like judaism, anabaptism and Lutheranism, all in the low percentages.

Did people forgot of decades of darkness by jared? They fullify the challenged but different as netherlands got rhineland parts and joined in 1848. But still count
Just because someone did something in a timeline, does not make it particularly likely. I am certain Eurofed wrote several timelines that include the Netherlands in his Germanies. To be fair Jared's timelines are a bit more likely than Eurofed's were, but still. I don't consider that particular part very likely. It generaly underestemates Dutch nationalism and overestimates William I greed, besides ignoring the complexities of the Vienna congress. A more likely scenario would have been what happened to Luxemburg. The more German parts will be part of the German Confederation, while the rest of the Netherlands would be independent.
 
Just because someone did something in a timeline, does not make it particularly likely. I am certain Eurofed wrote several timelines that include the Netherlands in his Germanies. To be fair Jared's timelines are a bit more likely than Eurofed's were, but still. I don't consider that particular part very likely. It generaly underestemates Dutch nationalism and overestimates William I greed, besides ignoring the complexities of the Vienna congress. A more likely scenario would have been what happened to Luxemburg. The more German parts will be part of the German Confederation, while the rest of the Netherlands would be independent.

So taking the above scenario, you would view it as more likely that the Dutch parts of the "Netherlands" would rebel/vote against the direction their leader(s) were taking them and form their own state?
 
So taking the above scenario, you would view it as more likely that the Dutch parts of the "Netherlands" would rebel/vote against the direction their leader(s) were taking them and form their own state?
No, it is a bit more subtle. The thing is the position of the house of Orange was not that good in these days. The Netherlands never had been a kingdom, after all. Willem I was able to return with the support of the Dutch people. After several years of occupation or being reduced to a puppet state of France the Dutch were glad to be independent again. They were fine for the Netherlands to become a kingdom under the house of Orange-Nassau. Since a king in the 19th century never rules alone, Willem would have to listen to his advisors. In the end the Dutch did not want to become part of the German confedration. The German confederation did not care if the Netherlands was part of it. The Netherlands had not been part of the HRE for centuries. Being part of the German confederation would limit the power of the king in some ways. End result the Netherlands wuld not become part of the German confederation, although some areas might (like what happened to Luxemburg. If the Dutch king would manage to gain the Rhinelands, we would try to keep them out of the confederation, but would probably accept a sitution in which the rhineland would be in inside it, but the traditional Netherlands would be outside it.*


* Interestingly that would mean that Luxemburg would remain outside of the German confederation, since it was part of the traditional Netherlands.
 
Probably another stupid idea, but here goes...

AFAIK the British Government wasn't keen on their monarch's personal union with Hannover. Is there any possibility of Willem being given a the Northern Netherlands and Hannover in 1815? This would be a personal union of two separate states and instead of uniting the three portions of the Netherlands as one state with him as king?

By the small chance that the above is a feasible idea, what would happen to the Southern Netherlands? Presumably there would be no way that France would be allowed to keep them. Would they go back to Austria by default?
 
What about a scenario where Napoleon's changes to the map of Europe were some how more permanent? The Confederation of the Rhine could become the new seed of a united Germany and therefore be more pluralistic definition of "German" instead of a Prussian dominated one. The Netherlands could be more tempted to eventually join if threatened by France.
 
Probably another stupid idea, but here goes...

AFAIK the British Government wasn't keen on their monarch's personal union with Hannover. Is there any possibility of Willem being given a the Northern Netherlands and Hannover in 1815? This would be a personal union of two separate states and instead of uniting the three portions of the Netherlands as one state with him as king?

By the small chance that the above is a feasible idea, what would happen to the Southern Netherlands? Presumably there would be no way that France would be allowed to keep them. Would they go back to Austria by default?

No. Various kings of Britain looked into giving Hannover to a second son in the 18th Century. The conclusion was that it would need every living prince in line to the throne to agree to the change of the succession. That was thought to be such a can of worms they always ditched the idea quite early.

The only way Hannover leaves the British personal union is female succession or conquest.
 
No. Various kings of Britain looked into giving Hannover to a second son in the 18th Century. The conclusion was that it would need every living prince in line to the throne to agree to the change of the succession. That was thought to be such a can of worms they always ditched the idea quite early.

The only way Hannover leaves the British personal union is female succession or conquest.
Fair enough. In my defence I did write that it was probably a stupid idea.

OTOH George III did had a severe shortage of legitimate grandchildren in 1815 so there might not have been many living princes to persuade.

IIRC the problem was so bad that his sons were told to impregnate their wives instead of their mistresses PDQ or be removed from the Civil List. I remember my mother having a book from of the library about it called The Royal Race many years ago. I also remember an entertaining Radio Four Saturday Night Play about it called the Hanoverian Handicap - handicap as in a horse race.
 
No, it is a bit more subtle. The thing is the position of the house of Orange was not that good in these days. The Netherlands never had been a kingdom, after all. Willem I was able to return with the support of the Dutch people. After several years of occupation or being reduced to a puppet state of France the Dutch were glad to be independent again. They were fine for the Netherlands to become a kingdom under the house of Orange-Nassau. Since a king in the 19th century never rules alone, Willem would have to listen to his advisors. In the end the Dutch did not want to become part of the German confedration. The German confederation did not care if the Netherlands was part of it. The Netherlands had not been part of the HRE for centuries. Being part of the German confederation would limit the power of the king in some ways. End result the Netherlands wuld not become part of the German confederation, although some areas might (like what happened to Luxemburg. If the Dutch king would manage to gain the Rhinelands, we would try to keep them out of the confederation, but would probably accept a sitution in which the rhineland would be in inside it, but the traditional Netherlands would be outside it.*


* Interestingly that would mean that Luxemburg would remain outside of the German confederation, since it was part of the traditional Netherlands.

Fair enough, that certainly seems like a plausible outcome. Perhaps more plausible than the alternative. I am skeptical however of it being impossible, or even all that unlikely, that the opposite could occur too with the right decisions being made by the leadership. In the early 19th century nationalism was a lot weaker than it would be even a generation later, and one shouldn't overestimate the German Confederation given that it was a very weak organisation to begin with. If both Prussia and Austria did not feel stifled under it, the Netherlands would not necessarily be so, but to be fair still would be more likely to be so than the latter too. In sum I agree with you that the whole affair is fairly unlikely with a 19th century POD, but not impossible and under the right circumstances could occur. I will reiterate though that "Germany" would have be to a very different country to OTL's version as well.
 
What about a scenario where Napoleon's changes to the map of Europe were some how more permanent? The Confederation of the Rhine could become the new seed of a united Germany and therefore be more pluralistic definition of "German" instead of a Prussian dominated one. The Netherlands could be more tempted to eventually join if threatened by France.
You mean a German confederation that excludes Austria and Prussia (and presumably Prussia doesn't get the Rhineland)? I don't see how this comes into being as none of the powers at the Congress of Vienna would want such a thing other than France. And if you reduce Prussian power that only leaves Austria in an even stronger position as master of the Confederation, and I don't see the Netherlands being any more interested in joining an Austrian dominated Germany.
 
Hmm; I actually have an Idea that I still think is a little out there but I believe it to be the best chance we've got.

The Netherlands went through three phases during its occupation by Napoleon: Batavian Republic, Kingdom of Holland and French Territory. In the case of the Kingdom of Holland, it was for most of its history ruled by King Louis I Boneparte until Napoleon demanded his abdication due to Louis putting his Kingdom first before Napoleons'. Lets assume that this never happens either because Louis I stops doing so for the time being or Nappy decided he doesn't give that much of a shit and that Louis I remains the King of Holland. Since he was putting his Kingdom over the needs of the Napoleonic Empire, perhaps in an effort to secure his future and expand his realm, he joins the coalition as Napoleon looses ground in Europe. Lets assume that Louis I stays on the throne and we have a branch of the Napoleon Dynasty ruling over the Netherlands. Looking at Belgium and the Pro-Francophone and French Culture stance of the government, its not too impossible to say that Louis I or his successors could ofcourse impose similar laws oppressing the Dutch. Not to mention I'm sure many will not appreciate the rule of a Non-Dutch Monarch. Come 1871, rebels overthrow the Bonepart branch in the Netherlands with German support: in exchange, the newly independent Netherlands joins the North German Confederation and Germany promises Autonomy and the return of the House of Orange-Nassau as a Duke and figurehead of the region. This could also be spurred by aggression on part of the French, likely to reinstall the Pro-French Boneparte Monarch. If the French are oppressing the Dutch, perhaps they'd take the Germans as the lesser of the two evils.
 
Hmm; I actually have an Idea that I still think is a little out there but I believe it to be the best chance we've got.

The Netherlands went through three phases during its occupation by Napoleon: Batavian Republic, Kingdom of Holland and French Territory. In the case of the Kingdom of Holland, it was for most of its history ruled by King Louis I Boneparte until Napoleon demanded his abdication due to Louis putting his Kingdom first before Napoleons'. Lets assume that this never happens either because Louis I stops doing so for the time being or Nappy decided he doesn't give that much of a shit and that Louis I remains the King of Holland. Since he was putting his Kingdom over the needs of the Napoleonic Empire, perhaps in an effort to secure his future and expand his realm, he joins the coalition as Napoleon looses ground in Europe. Lets assume that Louis I stays on the throne and we have a branch of the Napoleon Dynasty ruling over the Netherlands. Looking at Belgium and the Pro-Francophone and French Culture stance of the government, its not too impossible to say that Louis I or his successors could ofcourse impose similar laws oppressing the Dutch. Not to mention I'm sure many will not appreciate the rule of a Non-Dutch Monarch. Come 1871, rebels overthrow the Bonepart branch in the Netherlands with German support: in exchange, the newly independent Netherlands joins the North German Confederation and Germany promises Autonomy and the return of the House of Orange-Nassau as a Duke and figurehead of the region. This could also be spurred by aggression on part of the French, likely to reinstall the Pro-French Boneparte Monarch. If the French are oppressing the Dutch, perhaps they'd take the Germans as the lesser of the two evils.
There's a significant difference between 'francophone region which is half-Flemish' and 'NON-French state which has been independent for two centuries'.

If Louis I somehow manages to cling to power despite being a Bonaparte (a rather weird supposition, especially given there's a rival claimant) it would be through support inside the Netherlands. There's no French/francophone elite to build on for that; there's a Dutch elite. So there's no French imposition; no king could go so far in the Netherlands of the 19th century without dropping off his throne before he could say 'just joking!'. Now, if somehow Napoleonic France survived, they could prop up a French puppet in the Netherlands, but even then it seems like a lousy prospect for said puppet to try to extinguish Dutch culture/language/... so you need a pretty good explanation how a government so succesful for so long suddenly starts to shoot itself in the foot.


As to the idea of Wilhelmina marrying a reigning German monarch - she did marry a German prince, but by that point the Netherlands were firmly a parliamentary democracy. If inheritance issues cropped up, parliament could resolve them to prevent any weird personal unions (say, if there are multiple children pick the other than inherits the other throne). The only ones they might not immediately shoot down are with Belgium and Luxemburg.
 
There's a significant difference between 'francophone region which is half-Flemish' and 'NON-French state which has been independent for two centuries'.

If Louis I somehow manages to cling to power despite being a Bonaparte (a rather weird supposition, especially given there's a rival claimant) it would be through support inside the Netherlands. There's no French/francophone elite to build on for that; there's a Dutch elite. So there's no French imposition; no king could go so far in the Netherlands of the 19th century without dropping off his throne before he could say 'just joking!'. Now, if somehow Napoleonic France survived, they could prop up a French puppet in the Netherlands, but even then it seems like a lousy prospect for said puppet to try to extinguish Dutch culture/language/... so you need a pretty good explanation how a government so succesful for so long suddenly starts to shoot itself in the foot.

So lets speculate a bit; perhaps Louis I is what you speculate what would be needed(and an accurate point) and is a benevolent and tolerant Monarch. So for the duration of his reign, he manages to solidify his branch of the Bonaparte dynasty in the Netherlands enough that it is able to linger and remain in power without the Bonepartes in France. This isn't too far from Louis I: the Dutch knew him as "Louis the Good", and he was forced to abdicated by Napoleon because he would not fall into his designs that would hurt the Netherlands. Its not completely infeasible, especially if the Great Powers allow him to stay in power as a token of gratitude for him defecting to the Coalition.

This could give enough time for a Pro-French or even partially Francophone aristocracy to solidfy itself. Then when Louis I dies, have his successor be someone who was not tolerant and someone who promoted French culture and ideas over Dutch alternatives. By this time, the Netherland would have spent 30 years under the Bonepartes; that is more than enough time to create atleast a minority of the populace that is fervently loyal to the crown and a major opposition to Dutch citizens who would love to see the monarch overthrown. Not to mention such a Boneparte dynasty would likely be supported by the French, especially after the Boneparte Restoration.
 
For those of us who don't have the time to read Decades of Darkness, can someone explain in more detail how Jared managed this, and what changes were made to make it plausible?
 
For those of us who don't have the time to read Decades of Darkness, can someone explain in more detail how Jared managed this, and what changes were made to make it plausible?

Is a long and gradual process but start in vienna and ends in frankfurt, with netherlands being more proactive against Napoleón and different battles make netherlands got some rhenish área prussia got otl and a membership into the zollverein and confederation, when south provinces rebelión happened was squashed pretty easily but the confederation demanded better rights in the provinces as the prize of the support, when 1848 happen as hungary revolt was sucessful that make Austria smaller and more willing for the grossdeutchland losung as promise a triunvirato of the prussian, netherlands and Austria king alongside a more liberal reichstag.
 
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