The Long-Term State of Race Relations After Decisive US Victory at Bull Run?

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If, say, the Union won a massive victory at Bull Run, capturing Richmond soon afterwards and causing the Confederacy to collapse in short order, the long-term state of race relations/ civil rights could be very different, both positively and negatively. A very short (and for the South, unpleasant but not physically disastrous) war might mitigate much of the bitterness that rendered the OTL South so intractable to change. On the other hand, a settlement so early in the war would necessarily leave slavery still a living institution, at least in the short term. Would a potential lack of southern postwar fanaticism make reconciliation, and, eventually, racial equality, easier to achieve, or would a slower death of slavery simply delay all progress with no compensating benefits? I know that this would generate massive butterflies, but what would the long-term trends be?
 

Benevolent

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If, say, the Union won a massive victory at Bull Run, capturing Richmond soon afterwards and causing the Confederacy to collapse in short order, the long-term state of race relations/ civil rights could be very different, both positively and negatively. A very short (and for the South, unpleasant but not physically disastrous) war might mitigate much of the bitterness that rendered the OTL South so intractable to change. On the other hand, a settlement so early in the war would necessarily leave slavery still a living institution, at least in the short term. Would a potential lack of southern postwar fanaticism make reconciliation, and, eventually, racial equality, easier to achieve, or would a slower death of slavery simply delay all progress with no compensating benefits? I know that this would generate massive butterflies, but what would the long-term trends be?

Are you asking if the civil war was nipped in the butt from near the beginning would there be like no racism in the South? Nah.

Slavery as an institution wouldn't die in a very, very long time. We can see that racism still exists in every society that has a black freed population amongst them regardless of war, rebellion or emancipation at a later date.

The only way the race relationships in the south would have gotten better imo was if organizations like the freed men's bureau came along and continuously educated the poor white population with the freed black population, allotted them land surrounded by freed blacks and basically had a Reconstruction Era stay around some twenty years uninterrupted where the goal was the enfranchisement of poor white and blacks in racially equitable communities.

Then race relations would have been a lot better probably even better than some places in the North.
 
Are you asking if the civil war was nipped in the butt from near the beginning would there be like no racism in the South? Nah.

Slavery as an institution wouldn't die in a very, very long time. We can see that racism still exists in every society that has a black freed population amongst them regardless of war, rebellion or emancipation at a later date.

The only way the race relationships in the south would have gotten better imo was if organizations like the freed men's bureau came along and continuously educated the poor white population with the freed black population, allotted them land surrounded by freed blacks and basically had a Reconstruction Era stay around some twenty years uninterrupted where the goal was the enfranchisement of poor white and blacks in racially equitable communities.

Then race relations would have been a lot better probably even better than some places in the North.

I never said that there'd be no racism, just that it might, despite the slower death of the Peculiar Institution, be something near where we are now. And that's the most optimistic scenario.
 
Hard to say. The Civil War did lead to the Fourteenth Ammendment, which is majorly important to Civil Rights. Don't know if it could be passed without radicalization from the war- Southern states would probably block it for at least the next hundred years.
 

Benevolent

Banned
I never said that there'd be no racism, just that it might, despite the slower death of the Peculiar Institution, be something near where we are now. And that's the most optimistic scenario.

It's still very racist in the South, this isn't the best goalpost to be had lol but this certainly couldn't have happened without the end of slavery, end of Jim Crow and forced integration into schools of higher learning as well as businesses.

I mean the racism we as black people face all stems from the fact that we are the descendants of slaves and our ancestors were slaves because of notions placed on us over the centuries by slavers and slaver societies.

You won't erase slave stigma, no slave society has erased that on its black population from Oman to Brazil yet.

At best you'll find what some family and friends experience when travelling abroad -foreign blacks being treated better than native blacks-.
 
Hard to say. The Civil War did lead to the Fourteenth Ammendment, which is majorly important to Civil Rights. Don't know if it could be passed without radicalization from the war- Southern states would probably block it for at least the next hundred years.

This, 100%.

I think the idea that racism lasted so long because the South was "bitter," and not because significant numbers of people liked being able to hang people from trees for whistling at white women, is pretty far off from reality.

Absent the Civil War, you don't get the 13th and 14th amendments. You don't get Reconstruction and the first impetus towards literacy among African blacks. You don't get slavery abolished. You don't get blacks serving in the United States army.

What do you get? A south that's been chastened, but not broken; where people are still bought and sold.
 
This, 100%.

I think the idea that racism lasted so long because the South was "bitter," and not because significant numbers of people liked being able to hang people from trees for whistling at white women, is pretty far off from reality.

Absent the Civil War, you don't get the 13th and 14th amendments. You don't get Reconstruction and the first impetus towards literacy among African blacks. You don't get slavery abolished. You don't get blacks serving in the United States army.

What do you get? A south that's been chastened, but not broken; where people are still bought and sold.

I mostly agree with you. I'm just saying that it would a more, well, civil peace. probably no KKK, for example. Also,in the very long-term, the lack of three generations raised on the Lost Cause might, eventually, make the South more receptive to sentiments of equality from the civilized world.
 
Not possible, terrorism against blacks would still exist and be the norm.

Read the book: "Albion's Seed", Four British Folkways in America is a 1989 book by David Hackett Fischer that describes the folkways of four groups of people that moved from distinct parts of England {Albion} to the USA.

All you have to do is read chapter 4, The Borderlands to the Back Country. It's been a while since I read this rather lengthy book but it is instructive to see why the White South acts the way it does.

If you read this chapter, it really goes a long way to explain why the South is the way it is and how and why what the above poster said will hold true.

The best thing that could've happened to the US would that another ethnic group had settled there. Or,... if the original White settlers had either died out or moved on IMO.

Next, read the book by Thomas Sowell, "Black Rednecks and White Liberals". This excellent book explains much as well and here's a quote:

" Sowell argues that the black ghetto culture, which is claimed to be "authentic black culture", is historically neither authentic nor black in origin. Instead, Sowell argues that the black ghetto culture is in fact a relic of a highly dysfunctional white southern redneck culture which existed during the antebellum South. This culture came, in turn, from the "Cracker culture" of the North Britons and Scots-Irish who migrated from the generally lawless border regions of Britain.
Sowell gives a number of examples that he regards as supporting the lineage, e.g.,
an aversion to work, proneness to violence, neglect of education, sexual promiscuity, improvidence, drunkenness, lack of entrepreneurship,… and a style of religious oratory marked by strident rhetoric, unbridled emotions, and flamboyant imagery.
Sowell further argues that this "culture" did not exist uniformly among blacks, especially those considered "free persons of color", those trained in schools operated by people immersed in New England culture (who were, in turn, passing that culture to black students, specifically the need for a strong work ethic), and black immigrants from Caribbean islands (where slavery also existed). His essay argues that, among those groups, educational statistics were on par with similarly-trained whites (and higher than southern whites in general), and continued on an upward trend until the advent of multiculturalism."


The underlining, italics, and red coloring is mine.



Cheers, Joho :)
 

Benevolent

Banned
Read the book: "Albion's Seed", Four British Folkways in America is a 1989 book by David Hackett Fischer that describes the folkways of four groups of people that moved from distinct parts of England {Albion} to the USA.

All you have to do is read chapter 4, The Borderlands to the Back Country. It's been a while since I read this rather lengthy book but it is instructive to see why the White South acts the way it does.

If you read this chapter, it really goes a long way to explain why the South is the way it is and how and why what the above poster said will hold true.

The best thing that could've happened to the US would that another ethnic group had settled there. Or,... if the original White settlers had either died out or moved on IMO.

Next, read the book by Thomas Sowell, "Black Rednecks and White Liberals". This excellent book explains much as well and here's a quote:

" Sowell argues that the black ghetto culture, which is claimed to be "authentic black culture", is historically neither authentic nor black in origin. Instead, Sowell argues that the black ghetto culture is in fact a relic of a highly dysfunctional white southern redneck culture which existed during the antebellum South. This culture came, in turn, from the "Cracker culture" of the North Britons and Scots-Irish who migrated from the generally lawless border regions of Britain.
Sowell gives a number of examples that he regards as supporting the lineage, e.g.,
an aversion to work, proneness to violence, neglect of education, sexual promiscuity, improvidence, drunkenness, lack of entrepreneurship,… and a style of religious oratory marked by strident rhetoric, unbridled emotions, and flamboyant imagery.
Sowell further argues that this "culture" did not exist uniformly among blacks, especially those considered "free persons of color", those trained in schools operated by people immersed in New England culture (who were, in turn, passing that culture to black students, specifically the need for a strong work ethic), and black immigrants from Caribbean islands (where slavery also existed). His essay argues that, among those groups, educational statistics were on par with similarly-trained whites (and higher than southern whites in general), and continued on an upward trend until the advent of multiculturalism."


The underlining, italics, and red coloring is mine.



Cheers, Joho :)
Thomas Sowell is a coon and that's coming from someone raised in a conservative republican household, he is not a historian nor an anthropologist but rather a proponent of the same respectability politics as Cosby and other buffoons before and after him.

The Black America inner city culture is the result of economic disenfranchisment in a post-WWII setting, the result of White Flight after the GI bill, redlining and crack cocaine.

To speak of Black Americans as though we are wholly under the influence of "redneck culture" is to not only reduce us to puppets or those without a culture or sense of agency but also perpetuates the stereotype of the average white Southerner as lazy, crass and stupid which is far from the truth.

In fact much of the discrimination and racism put on the black freed and enslaved population came from the working class white masses who struggled to be included within an economic system regardless of their desire and ability to perform tasks.

Their racism towards blacks was the low hanging fruit growing from the tree of plantocracy, it was their alignment with the White Planters that provided them with some marginal ability to eek out a living but the cost of that was visceral hatred of the black masses.

It must be remembered that the white group of laborers, while they received a low wage, were compensated in part by a sort of public and psychological wage.

They were given public deference and titles of courtesy because they were white. They were admitted freely with all classes of white people to public functions, public parks, and the best schools. The police were drawn from their ranks, and the courts, dependent on their votes, treated them with such leniency as to encourage lawlessness.

Their vote selected public officials, and while this had small effect upon the economic situation, it had great effect upon their personal treatment and the deference shown them.

White schoolhouses were the best in the community, and conspicuously placed, and they cost anywhere from twice to ten times as much per capita as the colored schools.

The newspapers specialized on news that flattered the poor whites and almost utterly ignored the Negro except in crime and ridicule.

-WEB Dubois
 
Thomas Sowell is a coon and that's coming from someone raised in a conservative republican household, he is not a historian nor an anthropologist but rather a proponent of the same respectability politics as Cosby and other buffoons before and after him.

The Black America inner city culture is the result of economic disenfranchisment in a post-WWII setting, the result of White Flight after the GI bill, redlining and crack cocaine.

To speak of Black Americans as though we are wholly under the influence of "redneck culture" is to not only reduce us to puppets or those without a culture or sense of agency but also perpetuates the stereotype of the average white Southerner as lazy, crass and stupid which is far from the truth.

In fact much of the discrimination and racism put on the black freed and enslaved population came from the working class white masses who struggled to be included within an economic system regardless of their desire and ability to perform tasks.

Their racism towards blacks was the low hanging fruit growing from the tree of plantocracy, it was their alignment with the White Planters that provided them with some marginal ability to eek out a living but the cost of that was visceral hatred of the black masses.



-WEB Dubois

WEB Dubois was a sentimental fool.
 

Benevolent

Banned
Please tell me you're not saying what I think you're saying.

His claim to fame is being against the very thing that got him into the position he was in to make such an outlandish statement.

Like Ward Connerly, he is more than willing to sellout the black population after he got his piece and is in everyday against the Black Conservativism Powell, Rice and many others have fought for.

His statements have no place in the discussion of black people, he is diametrically opposed to the true black empowerment and enfranchisement in the racialist economic and social system of the United States and his very disregard of White Southerners shows that quite clearly.
 
His claim to fame is being against the very thing that got him into the position he was in to make such an outlandish statement.

Like Ward Connerly, he is more than willing to sellout the black population after he got his piece and is in everyday against the Black Conservativism Powell, Rice and many others have fought for.

His statements have no place in the discussion of black people, he is diametrically opposed to the true black empowerment and enfranchisement in the racialist economic and social system of the United States and his very disregard of White Southerners shows that quite clearly.

You are Huey Newton.
 

CalBear

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This thread has gone so far off the rails that there is no getting it back.

How a Civil War question wound up like this is beyond me.

This discussion is actually a Chat issue. If those participating it the last half of the thread want to move it there, go ahead. I would suggest that the sort of denigrating comments used so far be left behind.
 
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